Does Hebrews 10 say if we willfully sin after being saved there is no more forgiveness?
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In Romans 7 I see a man struggling with sin. I do not see a willful sinner.
Romans 7 is not referring to willful sin. Read the entire chapter. It's talking about the fact that the flesh cannot do anything, and victory over sin is only through the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit.
ἑκουσίως, adverb, [from Euripides down], voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord: Hebrews 10:26 (ἑκ. ἁμαρτάνειν [A. V. to sin willfully] is tacitly opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness); 1 Peter 5:2.
He says in his flesh , there is no good thing, he is brought into captivity by a law that when he wants to do good , he does evil. He says what he wants to do he does not do and what he doesn't do he does. The meaning is clear.\nIn the flesh that is , in our own strength , we can do nothing.
It is only through the work of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that we can be made free.
The difference between Paul and the sinner in Hebrews is that paul receives the grace of God that sets him free and the sinner in the book of Hebrews willfully rejects the grace that sets man free.
No one who is begotten of God is a slave to Satan, and we shouldn't be slaves to sin either, depending on what you mean. Jesus came to free us from sin. That we still sin on occasion is a failing, but we can be forgiven and move on.
The hallmark of a Christian life should be holiness, though yes we might sometimes sin.
I understand, taking the verse in isolation it sounds as if Paul is addressing sin in general. But what about the previous paragraph? Doesn't it sound like Paul is addressing our hope in Jesus Christ? Is apostacy from THAT the subject of Paul's message?
Even here the main subject seems to be the crucifixion of Jesus, which is the basis of our being forgiven of our sins. (plural) Here is how I see it.
Suppose I am searching for a way to have my sins forgiven. I grew up believing that forgiveness came through the sacrifices offered in the synagogue, and for years that was the system I trusted. Then I heard the gospel of Christ and came to believe that His death was the true, God‑given means of atonement. But embracing Jesus cost me dearly—my standing in the synagogue, my livelihood, my place in the community. Under that pressure, I begin to wonder whether I should abandon Christ and return to the old sacrificial system. Hebrews 10:26 confronts that temptation directly: if I knowingly turn away from Christ’s once‑for‑all sacrifice, I am not returning to an alternative path of forgiveness; I am stepping away from the only sacrifice God has ever accepted. The old offerings never removed sin, and Christ’s offering cannot be replaced. To reject Him is to reject the only provision God has made.
Was Paul not "Begotten of God" at the time he wrote the book of romans? Because He clearly states He is a slave to sin:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand, for I do not practice what I will to do, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 But if I practice what I do not will to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing, for the will to do what is right is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good I desire to do, I do not do, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who does it, but sin that lives in me.
21 I find then a law that when I desire to do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, 23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then, with my mind, I serve the law of God, but with my flesh, the law of sin.
This last line is important Because it describes what being born again means. Paul has separated His Soul/Spirit with His Carnal desires of His body and says while in His soul/Spirit he can turn and hate sin, his carnal body will do the things he hates. So in His Mind/inner being He serves God, but his body which he has limited control over serves God.
I mean what paul says in verse 25.. While in this body we to some degree will serve sin and satan while our inner most being wants nothing to do with the sin we keep serving.
If we could be completely holy we would not need to be 'christian.'
If faith was yours at conversion, then there is no reason not to persevere in faith during lifelong sanctification.
If faith is God's then you are merely a robot. The harmonization is that our will/faith cooperates with GW/HS,
which satisfies GRFS but is NOT meritorious (John 6:29, Eph. 2:8-10).
Perseverance is not perfection. Even genuine believers continue to battle the flesh. But the point is they do battle it...they fight against it. They sometimes fail, but the Holy Spirit convicts and they repent. When Scripture warns about those who continue to "practice" sin, I believe it's talking about those who remain controlled by their carnal nature. They sin "willfully" by making the deliberate choice to continue to live in sin. They don't fight sin, they have made a decision to NOT fight against it. They think "just believing" is good enough and subsequent obedience is optional. Such people have a dead faith, not a saving faith.
Amen! I see perseverance in faith as a conditional confirmation that one has genuine faith.
God does not merely zap us with faith, and we have no choice in the matter. No fatalistically determined robotic faith.
Here is how I see it. Now although it is our responsibility to choose to believe/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Jesus Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would not come to believe/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe/place faith in Christ for salvation. We must choose to believe/place faith in Him. The impulse to saving belief/faith in Christ comes from the Father, but it does not end there. We need to make a choice. We are not robots. Faith is not meritorious. We are simply accepting a free gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8)
I think you're assigning too much to Paul's words here to characterize him as expressing "slavery to sin". A slave has no freedom of their own, to be a slave to something means you're at it's whim - being a slave to sin is not how scripture describes the believer in Christ. When someone believes they are given the Holy Spirit, who helps us to live correctly. He also renews us. We experience something called sanctification of the spirit. Our behaviors change and holiness becomes a part of our lives. There is still, unfortunately, occasion for sin, but I think it is poor wording to describe it as slavery to sin and slavery to Satan. If someone is living in slavery to sin, completely given to it, I would doubt that they believe in Jesus. Jesus is the light of the world, and Christians are being conformed into his image.
Not at all. MFWists believe God invites/calls/urges everyone to satisfy His condition for heaven/forgiveness/salvation (1Tim. 2:3-4).
God wanted to create humans in His moral image rather than robots, which meant gracing them with the possibility of choosing the good or evil option/the fruit of life or death (Gen. 3:1-6), and what makes choosing the option evil is that doing so separates sinners from God, who is love, joy and peace, thereby resulting in hatred, misery and strife.
Thus, unrepentant sinners send themselves to hell.
Bear in mind, this is the same Paul who wrote, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
Paul struggled with sin, as we all do, but he was not completely under it's control like someone might be if they are unregenerate.
In the flesh, without God, Paul is lamenting that he can't help but sin.
But God gives the solution! It's in the same chapter and the first part of Romans 8:1-17. Very liberating stuff:
Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
So that why Hebrews 10 talks about people who are deliberate in their sin. They are not choosing to submit and live in the Holy Spirit but are choosing to live in the flesh. For such people, they have rejected the only way of salvation, as evidenced by deliberately choosing to sin rather that live in the Holy Spirit (because the Holy Spirit causes you to sin less and less and obey God more and more).
Yes, having faith means one has faith!
How is having no choice not zapping!?
Yes, the Father draws but does not force souls to believe.
God initiates; sinners may cooperate--or not.
And this truth describes the situation during sanctification.
It does NOT describe OSAS or deny the possibility of deciding NOT to cooperate.
Thus, there is no good reason to bend the Scriptures urging perseverance.
Here's what I see, from my sometimes obstructed view.
If we walk in the flesh, in our own strength, we will be sunk by the Law of sin described in Romans 7.
Only through Christ's death, resurrection, and Priestly Ministry, and the Holy Spirit can we prevail against the law of sin in our members.
IMHO, I believe that is the point of Romans 7-8. I am open to other perspectives that may provide additional insight though.
Spot on!In the flesh, without God, Paul is lamenting that he can't help but sin.
But God gives the solution! It's in the same chapter and the first part of Romans 8:1-17. Very liberating stuff:
Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
So that why Hebrews 10 talks about people who are deliberate in their sin. They are not choosing to submit and live in the Holy Spirit but are choosing to live in the flesh. For such people, they have rejected the only way of salvation, as evidenced by deliberately choosing to sin rather that live in the Holy Spirit (because the Holy Spirit causes you to sin less and less and obey God more and more).
Amen!
If we had no choice, then zapping would be the other option, but I believe we have a choice. Zapping/no choice = robot.
Amen!
Amen!
Sanctification follows justification.
I believe in OSAS IF and this is a big IF. IF one is truly saved to begin with. I see no bending in regard to perseverance, but I do see a conditional confirmation.