OSAS, When does salvation take place?

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Hello Drich, thank you for getting this thread going for us :)(y)

As far as Matthew 7:21-23 revealing to us that we are not saved until the Day of Judgment, where does the passage tell us that :unsure: That the passage is referring to the Lord's judgment of the reprobate (and what will happen to them there and afterwards, and why) seems clear enough, but I see no inference there telling us about the saints and what's going to happen to us at or after the GWT Judgment (like we do in the case of the reprobate).

I'm probably missing something (I often do) so please point out why you believe that passage is addressing not only the reprobate, but the saints, as well. Thanks :)

That said, a number of things didn't add up for me the first time I read Matthew 7:22-23. First off, why did the Lord call the three deeds that the folks in Matthew 7:22 were claiming to have done (1. prophesying in Jesus' Name, 2. casting out demons in Jesus' Name, and 3. performing many wonders in Jesus' Name) "lawless deeds" :unsure: They don't sound like lawless deeds to me, and I'll wager that they don't to you either, so why do you think that He calls them, "lawless" :unsure:

Thanks :)

There's more, but I think that I'll stop here and wait to hear back from you about the above before going on.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

I don't believe Matthew 7:21-23 is teaching that those people were once saved and then lost. Rather, it is a warning that no one should assume they are already accepted by God before the final judgment. Jesus repeatedly tells His followers to endure, remain faithful, and be ready because the final separation has not yet taken place.

Notice that Jesus begins with: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21, ASV)

He is speaking to everyone who calls Him "Lord." The issue is not whether they made a profession of faith, but whether they actually did the Father's will. Then He says: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord..." (Matthew 7:22, ASV)

"That day" is the day of judgment. They are expecting to enter the kingdom, but Jesus reveals that their confidence was misplaced.

You also asked why Jesus calls their works "lawlessness." He does not say that prophesying, casting out demons, or doing miracles are lawless by themselves. The key is His final statement: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23, ASV)

The word translated "iniquity" or "lawlessness" refers to living in disregard of God's law. Their mistake was trusting spectacular religious works while neglecting obedience to God. They could say "Lord, Lord," perform impressive acts, yet still live contrary to His commandments.

This fits perfectly with the verses immediately before and after.

Just before this, Jesus warns about false prophets who appear good outwardly but are known by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20). Immediately afterward, He gives the parable of the wise and foolish builders. The wise man is not the one who merely hears Jesus' words, but the one who hears them and does them (Matthew 7:24-27).

So the entire context is about obedience, not merely profession.

This also agrees with Jesus' own words elsewhere: "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, ASV)

"Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you." (John 15:14, ASV)

Matthew 7 does not support the idea that a verbal confession or even miraculous ministry guarantees salvation. Jesus teaches that the evidence of truly belonging to Him is doing the Father's will, and the final verdict is revealed "in that day," not before it.
 
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Question for you. What if someone loved God with all their heart, then something catastrophic happened like their spouse or child died and they give God the middle finger because "how could He do this to me?" and walk away and decide to go into Wicca. According to your beliefs? Are they still saved?
So that's a no on addressing the points I made? I will answer your question if you make an attempt to talk about the OP.

In good faith here is your answer:

If the person you described loved God First, then that means their love for God supersedes the love that have for that child. Example, David's first child with Bathshseba was taken by God. While the child was on his death bed David put on sack cloth and ashes and fasted, even slept in the dirt before the lord for days asking God for this child's life. As soon as david was notified that the child died, He got up put on regular clothes and ate. This confused his servants because while the child was alive David would not listen to rhyme or reason, He was inconsolable while the child still had a chance.

David loved the child. But, he loved God more, as He did not want the child to die and petitioned God in the most humble and contrite way possible. However When God made the decision to take the child despite what David wanted and despite David's love for the child, David immediately accepted God's decision, as witnessed by his actions.

2 sam 12:
16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” 20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

He got up and went back to His life because His love for God was greater than His love for the child.

Those who would hold their love for God hostage for anything or anyone even a child can not say they Love God with all of their Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength. As that person, place or thing that would cause you to walk away from God if you lost, is love more than God.

As your love for God is only contingent on Him providing your true love to you. If He/God where to take your true love/Child you would terminate your relationship with God. This means you never loved God first./You where never 'saved.'
 
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So that's a no on addressing the points I made? I will answer your question if you make an attempt to talk about the OP.

In good faith here is your answer:

If the person you described loved God First, then that means their love for God supersedes the love that have for that child. Example, David's first child with Bathshseba was taken by God. While the child was on his death bed David put on sack cloth and ashes and fasted, even slept in the dirt before the lord for days asking God for this child's life. As soon as david was notified that the child died, He got up put on regular clothes and ate. This confused his servants because while the child was alive David would not listen to rhyme or reason, He was inconsolable while the child still had a chance.

David loved the child. But, he loved God more, as He did not want the child to die and petitioned God in the most humble and contrite way possible. However When God made the decision to take the child despite what David wanted and despite David's love for the child, David immediately accepted God's decision, as witnessed by his actions.

2 sam 12:
16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” 20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

He got up and went back to His life because His love for God was greater than His love for the child.

Those who would hold their love for God hostage for anything or anyone even a child can not say they Love God with all of their Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength. As that person, place or thing that would cause you to walk away from God if you lost, is love more than God.

As your love for God is only contingent on Him providing your true love to you. If He/God where to take your true love/Child you would terminate your relationship with God. This means you never loved God first./You where never 'saved.'
I would add by David's observation, "I shall go to him..." reveals his trust that God has taken (re)possession of the care of the child's life, and that He keeps the child until the Day that he is reunited with him.
 
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So that's a no on addressing the points I made? I will answer your question if you make an attempt to talk about the OP.

In good faith here is your answer:

If the person you described loved God First, then that means their love for God supersedes the love that have for that child. Example, David's first child with Bathshseba was taken by God. While the child was on his death bed David put on sack cloth and ashes and fasted, even slept in the dirt before the lord for days asking God for this child's life. As soon as david was notified that the child died, He got up put on regular clothes and ate. This confused his servants because while the child was alive David would not listen to rhyme or reason, He was inconsolable while the child still had a chance.

David loved the child. But, he loved God more, as He did not want the child to die and petitioned God in the most humble and contrite way possible. However When God made the decision to take the child despite what David wanted and despite David's love for the child, David immediately accepted God's decision, as witnessed by his actions.

2 sam 12:
16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” 20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

He got up and went back to His life because His love for God was greater than His love for the child.

Those who would hold their love for God hostage for anything or anyone even a child can not say they Love God with all of their Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength. As that person, place or thing that would cause you to walk away from God if you lost, is love more than God.

As your love for God is only contingent on Him providing your true love to you. If He/God where to take your true love/Child you would terminate your relationship with God. This means you never loved God first./You where never 'saved.'
My question was based on the OP.

So, essentially you're changing the premise of my question. I started out by saying they loved the Lord with all their heart, but your answer changes that premise to, they didn't really. You can love someone with all your heart in a relationship, they can cheat on you and that love stops. That doesn't mean the love wasn't there in the first place. Same concept. Someone can love the Lord with all their heart, and then accuse God of ______ (fill in the blank) and the love stops. That doesn't negate what they had at the start.

So based on my question, without changing the premise, are they still saved?
 
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That may be according to dispensationalism, but I think, not according to the Word of God.
Funny how if you don't agree with it it's not part of the word of God but it's clearly in the text of the Bible there are two separate judgments and if you look at the criteria and what's happening in each of them they are indeed different doesn't have anything to do with dispensationalism
 
I don't believe Matthew 7:21-23 is teaching that those people were once saved and then lost.
Hello 2Christ, I agree(y)

Rather, it is a warning that no one should assume they are already accepted by God before the final judgment.
Assurance can be a fleeting thing to be sure (and we should not "assume" anything, of course), but I believe that the Lord wants us to be certain of our salvation/that we are truly "in Christ", and that during our walk before/with Him ~in this life~! He commands us to so do more than once, and He also tells us plainly that we can and should be sure (that we have been saved & that we ~already~ possess "eternal life", and that from the very moment that we first believe .. e.g. John 5:24).

For instance,


2 Corinthians 13
5 Test yourselves ~to see if you are in the faith~; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
1 John 5
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may ~know~ that you have ~eternal life~.

Jesus repeatedly tells His followers to endure, remain faithful, and be ready because the final separation has not yet taken place.
Actually, I believe that "those who endure to the end" is a description of true believers, not an admonishment or command for us to do so .. e.g. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.

Notice that Jesus begins with: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21, ASV)

He is speaking to everyone who calls Him "Lord." The issue is not whether they made a profession of faith, but whether they actually did the Father's will.
Yes, He is telling us that there are many who "claim" (and may even believe) that they are Christians in the church, but also that what they "do" reveals who they really "are" (a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, even if it appears to be "good" at first blush).

Then He says: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord..." (Matthew 7:22, ASV) "That day" is the day of judgment. They are expecting to enter the kingdom, but Jesus reveals that their confidence was misplaced.
Agreed. Of course, I wonder if some (or most) of those who will be standing in that Judgment (GWT) will truly be expecting to be judged worthy of living out eternity with Him, or if they are simply lying about what they did in this life instead? I mean, considering the alternative that will be set before them and the precipice upon which they will be standing at that particular moment in time (the Lake of Fire), can you blame them :unsure:

You also asked why Jesus calls their works "lawlessness." He does not say that prophesying, casting out demons, or doing miracles are lawless by themselves. The key is His final statement: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23, ASV)

The word translated "iniquity" or "lawlessness" refers to living in disregard of God's law. Their mistake was trusting spectacular religious works while neglecting obedience to God. They could say "Lord, Lord," perform impressive acts, yet still live contrary to His commandments.
Here we disagree, because I believe that the key to everything that is being said in this short passage is found in the four words above in bold, "I NEVER knew you". That's why their deeds (whether miraculous or mundane) were "lawless", because those who do not know the Lord cannot do anything in accord with His Divine will, nor by His power. Our "knowing Him" and His "knowing us" is the key, the personal relationship, that is, from which everything in the Christian life flows (as He also told us in His high, priestly prayer),

John 10
3 ~THIS~ is eternal life, that they may ~know~ You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

So, whatever we do as Christians (in Christ) is wholly dependent upon our knowing Him, and He us, and on the growing "personal" relationship that we have, with Him (the One who saved us, and who also promised to sanctify us and keep us safe, from here to Glory .. e.g. John 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25, Jude 24-25).

This fits perfectly with the verses immediately before and after.

Just before this, Jesus warns about false prophets who appear good outwardly but are known by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20). Immediately afterward, He gives the parable of the wise and foolish builders. The wise man is not the one who merely hears Jesus' words, but the one who hears them and does them (Matthew 7:24-27).

So the entire context is about obedience, not merely profession.
Here again I disagree, and that for the same reason, because the most important context here is about who we are, not about what we do (because what we do results from who we are, or more specifically, of who we have become, by Him and in Him).

That said, the latter (obedience, good deeds, holy living, etc.) is certainly important, because it is the evidence that shows us who we really are, true Christian or CINO (or as @mailmandan says, "believers" or "make believers" ;)).


This also agrees with Jesus' own words elsewhere: "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, ASV) "Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you." (John 15:14, ASV)
Agreed, of course.

I'd like to be clear about something at this point. I hold to "Lordship Salvation", by which I mean that a true believer is not ~required~ to do good deeds, but that he/she ~will~ do good deeds (among the many other things that accompany our salvation), not to become or remain "saved", but because we already ~are~ saved .. e.g. Ephesians 2:4-5, Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5.

What I am ~not~ is a believer in "works righteousness", in any sense of what that means. There is no 'initial' salvation, for instance, that begins as something that is wholly gracious, but is then morphed somehow into a salvation that is based, even in part, on what 'we' do instead, because again, what we do is a matter of who we are/who we have become, so it's only what He did 'for us' that truly matters (or "counts" toward our redemption, forgiveness & salvation).


Matthew 7 does not support the idea that a verbal confession or even miraculous ministry guarantees salvation. Jesus teaches that ~the evidence~ of truly belonging to Him is doing the Father's will...
AGREED :)(y)(y) In fact, if that's what you believe, specifically (the words above in bold, that is) then it seems that we are on the same page about most or all of this :giggle:

and the final verdict is revealed "in that day," not before it.
Well, I agree that we will not "hear" the final verdict from Him directly until after we die, but that hardly means that we cannot know, or that He does not expect us to know, what His verdict will be in the here and now (e.g. 1 John 5:13).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
 
P.S. - I believe that it's helpful to consider how He sees us, as His children, by adoption, IOW (and as "human beings", then, NOT as "human doings"), because who and what we are to Him, rather than what we do (or fail to do) for Him, is what I believe is most important to Him (just like it is with us and our children, even when they fail to do what we want them to do, yes :)).

~Deuteronomy
 
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Hello 2Christ, I agree(y)


Assurance can be a fleeting thing to be sure (and we should not "assume" anything, of course), but I believe that the Lord wants us to be certain of our salvation/that we are truly "in Christ", and that during our walk before/with Him ~in this life~! He commands us to so do more than once, and He also tells us plainly that we can and should be sure (that we have been saved & that we ~already~ possess "eternal life", and that from the very moment that we first believe .. e.g. John 5:24).

For instance,


2 Corinthians 13
5 Test yourselves ~to see if you are in the faith~; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
1 John 5
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may ~know~ that you have ~eternal life~.


Actually, I believe that "those who endure to the end" is a description of true believers, not an admonishment or command for us to do so .. e.g. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.


Yes, He is telling us that there are many who "claim" (and may even believe) that they are Christians in the church, but also that what they "do" reveals who they really "are" (a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, even if it appears to be "good" at first blush).



Agreed. Of course, I wonder if some (or most) of those who will be standing in that Judgment (GWT) will truly be expecting to be judged worthy of living out eternity with Him, or if they are simply lying about what they did in this life instead? I mean, considering the alternative that will be set before them and the precipice upon which they will be standing at that particular moment in time (the Lake of Fire), can you blame them :unsure:


Here we disagree, because I believe that the key to everything that is being said in this short passage is found in the four words above in bold,
"I NEVER knew you". That's why their deeds (whether miraculous or mundane) were "lawless", because those who do not know the Lord cannot do anything in accord with His Divine will, nor by His power. Our "knowing Him" and His "knowing us" is the key, the personal relationship, that is, from which everything in the Christian life flows (as He also told us in His high, priestly prayer),

John 10
3 ~THIS~ is eternal life, that they may ~know~ You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

So, whatever we do as Christians (in Christ) is wholly dependent upon our knowing Him, and He us, and on the growing "personal" relationship that we have, with Him (the One who saved us, and who also promised to sanctify us and keep us safe, from here to Glory .. e.g. John 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25, Jude 24-25).


Here again I disagree, and that for the same reason, because the most important context here is about who we are, not about what we do (because what we do results from who we are, or more specifically, of who we have become, by Him and in Him).

That said, the latter (obedience, good deeds, holy living, etc.) is certainly important, because it is the evidence that shows us who we really are, true Christian or CINO (or as @mailmandan says, "believers" or "make believers" ;)).


Agreed, of course.

I'd like to be clear about something at this point. I hold to "Lordship Salvation", by which I mean that a true believer is not ~required~ to do good deeds, but that he/she ~will~ do good deeds (among the many other things that accompany our salvation), not to become or remain "saved", but because we already ~are~ saved .. e.g. Ephesians 2:4-5, Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5.

What I am ~not~ is a believer in "works righteousness", in any sense of what that means. There is no 'initial' salvation, for instance, that begins as something that is wholly gracious, but is then morphed somehow into a salvation that is based, even in part, on what 'we' do instead, because again, what we do is a matter of who we are/who we have become, so it's only what He did 'for us' that truly matters (or "counts" toward our redemption, forgiveness & salvation).


AGREED :)(y)(y) In fact, if that's what you believe, specifically (the words above in bold, that is) then it seems that we are on the same page about most or all of this :giggle:


Well, I agree that we will not "hear" the final verdict from Him directly until after we die, but that hardly means that we cannot know, or that He does not expect us to know, what His verdict will be in the here and now (e.g. 1 John 5:13).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
Good Morning Deuteronomy,

I agree that knowing Christ is essential. No Christian would deny that. But I don't think Jesus separates knowing Him from obeying Him. Throughout His teaching, He joins the two together.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15, ASV)

He also said, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me." (John 14:21, ASV)

And again, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10, ASV)

So the question is not whether a relationship with Christ is important. It certainly is. The question is how Jesus says that relationship is shown and continued. His answer is obedience.

Matthew 7 itself makes this clear. Jesus does not simply say, "I never knew you." He also gives the reason for His judgment: "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23, ASV). If "I never knew you" were the whole explanation, there would have been no need to add that they were workers of lawlessness. Jesus deliberately includes both. They claimed to serve Him, but their lives were marked by disobedience.

The surrounding context points to the same conclusion. First, Jesus warns that false prophets are known by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20). Then He says that not everyone who calls Him "Lord" will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of His Father (Matthew 7:21). Finally, He compares the wise man with the foolish man. The difference is not that one heard His words and the other did not. Both heard. The difference is that one obeyed while the other did not (Matthew 7:24-27). The entire passage is about obedience flowing from genuine faith.

I also don't think Scripture supports the idea that someone who once truly served God could never later fall away.

Judas is an obvious example. Jesus chose him as one of the Twelve and sent him out with the others to preach repentance, heal the sick, and cast out demons (Matthew 10:1, 5-8; Mark 6:7-13). Yet Judas later betrayed Christ. His ministry did not guarantee that he would remain faithful.

King Saul is another example. God chose him, gave him His Spirit, and Saul even prophesied (1 Samuel 10:6, 10). Later, because of his disobedience, the Spirit departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14). He began well but did not finish well.

Even Satan himself was created holy before becoming corrupt. A right beginning did not prevent a later fall.

Jesus gives the same warning in John 15. He describes branches that are in the vine but are later cut off because they do not continue to abide. The issue is not merely beginning with Christ, but remaining in Him.

So I agree that knowing Christ is the foundation. But according to Jesus, knowing Him and obeying Him cannot be separated. Obedience is not a substitute for a relationship with Christ, nor is a claimed relationship a substitute for obedience. Jesus consistently teaches that those who truly know Him hear His voice, follow Him, keep His commandments, abide in Him, bear good fruit, do the Father's will, and endure to the end. That is exactly what the context of Matthew 7 teaches.

Blessings
 
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P.S. - I believe that it's helpful to consider how He sees us, as His children, by adoption, IOW (and as "human beings", then, NOT as "human doings"), because who and what we are to Him, rather than what we do (or fail to do) for Him, is what I believe is most important to Him (just like it is with us and our children, even when they fail to do what we want them to do, yes :)).

~Deuteronomy
Deuteronomy, I agree that GOD desires a relationship with us as His children. That is a wonderful truth. But I don't think the Bible presents our identity and our conduct as two separate things. Ultimately, they are inseparable.

We were created in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27), and from the beginning His purpose has been that His people reflect His character. God said, "Ye shall be holy; for I Jehovah your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2, ASV). Jesus likewise said, "Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48, ASV). Peter repeats the same command: "Like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living." (1 Peter 1:15-16, ASV).

A loving father does not only want his children to belong to him. He also wants them to grow to become like him in character. In the same way, our heavenly Father is not only interested in what we are called, but also in what we become.

This is exactly why Jesus so often says, "Follow me," "Keep my commandments," "Do the will of my Father," and "Abide in me." He is shaping us into His likeness.

The comparison with our own children only goes so far because our children remain imperfect, and so are we in this life. But God's goal is much greater. Those who enter His Eternal Kingdom will live forever in the very presence of GOD, where there is no sin, no rebellion, no uncleanness, and no lawlessness. Scripture says that nothing unclean will enter the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:27). GOD is preparing a Holy people to dwell with a HOLY GOD.

So I would say that GOD certainly loves us as His children, but He loves us too much to leave us unchanged. He is not looking merely for people who bear His name, but for people who increasingly bear His likeness. That is why Jesus consistently calls His disciples to repentance, obedience, holiness, and perseverance. Relationship is the foundation, but transformation is the purpose. The two were never meant to be separated.
 
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That is not a metric.
People who teach a losable salvation, which is no salvation at all actually, can never really answer that question.H
well then tell us what your metrics are?

How do people measure up to be the standard God wants us to uphold? To imitate Christ I think is the right way. Meaning knowing Him and Doing what He asks. He left us a map so we can follow in his footsteps, Matthew, John, Luke And Mark are the maps that leads to eternal life if we follow it we find the treasure ( Eternal Life)
 
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That is not a metric.
People who teach a losable salvation, which is no salvation at all actually, can never really answer that question.
It is completely possibly to be truly saved and turn on God, an throw away the gift. Nothing i. The biblical text says the a truly saved person cannot throw the gift away an decide that he doesn't want to be with jesus.

All the references people throw at this have glaring erres in logic. As mentioned above the text does say you can't loose,. Or the other response "can't be snatched from His hand. Again i say, throw away, willingly jump out of His hand.

God isn't going to force you into heaven if you turned on him. And he isn't going to let you in because turned on Him.

Moreover 2x I can recall the text of the Bible where "name blotted from book of life". Clearly indication a saved individual who no longer has salvation.

This OSAS doesn't apply to apostates or those who switch sides. It only applies to those FOLLOWING Christ.
 
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That is not a metric.
People who teach a losable salvation, which is no salvation at all actually, can never really answer that question.
That's because they did not put all of their faith in Jesus.
To them, they mix works like discipleship with grace. They are adding to the gospel and not differentiating faith in Christ from the expectations of the Parent for the child.

It's like a teen boy saying I don't want to mow today. Then using the lordship/discipleship mentality, that boy is no longer a child and does not belong to his Mom and Dad.
 
well then tell us what your metrics are?

How do people measure up to be the standard God wants us to uphold? To imitate Christ I think is the right way. Meaning knowing Him and Doing what He asks. He left us a map so we can follow in his footsteps, Matthew, John, Luke And Mark are the maps that leads to eternal life if we follow it we find the treasure ( Eternal Life)
Tell me exactly how you imitate Christ?
 
Question for you. What if someone loved God with all their heart, then something catastrophic happened like their spouse or child died and they give God the middle finger because "how could He do this to me?" and walk away and decide to go into Wicca. According to your beliefs? Are they still saved?
What ifs.............. Do you know someone who has done this? I've met a number of believers who have had great loss and great grief. Some have temporarily been overcome by grief. They have all returned to God sooner or later. And that is because there is an inner power that draws them back in spite of what they've endured.

There are countless make-believers who call themselves Christian. The question is does God recognise them? Unless they are born again, no He does not. Being born into a Christian family is not enough. Believing the right doctrine is not enough. Believing the facts about Christ is not enough.
 
yes, just follow Christ and do what HE says.
Why does everything you say revolve around what believers must do? Do you not understand that faith depends entirely on what God has already done?

Romans 8:30-34

"And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us."

Galatians 2:16

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."​
 
To imitate Christ I think is the right way. Meaning knowing Him and Doing what He asks. He left us a map so we can follow in his footsteps, Matthew, John, Luke And Mark are the maps that leads to eternal life if we follow it we find the treasure ( Eternal Life)


Submitting to the Holy Spirit makes this even easier because He empowers you to reflect Jesus!

If a person has the Holy Spirit as so many Christians claim they do, then there is no excuse not to obey Him. :giggle:


🕊️
 
It is completely possibly to be truly saved and turn on God, an throw away the gift. Nothing i. The biblical text says the a truly saved person cannot throw the gift away an decide that he doesn't want to be with jesus.

All the references people throw at this have glaring erres in logic. As mentioned above the text does say you can't loose,. Or the other response "can't be snatched from His hand. Again i say, throw away, willingly jump out of His hand.

God isn't going to force you into heaven if you turned on him. And he isn't going to let you in because turned on Him.

Moreover 2x I can recall the text of the Bible where "name blotted from book of life". Clearly indication a saved individual who no longer has salvation.

This OSAS doesn't apply to apostates or those who switch sides. It only applies to those FOLLOWING Christ.

Is it really, so you are saying that once a person has received the declaration of justified/not-guilty by the Judge, they can overturn the judgement and usurp the authority of the Judge.

As well, the Judge has made it clear to all who trust Him for the gift that He is faithful and true to His promises.

So what have you really trusted God for when you say your saved? ..... because this is salvation according to scripture.

In your view we still are in the Garden where the actions of Adam outweigh the actions of Christ Jesus.

That is not taught in scripture.
 
well then tell us what your metrics are?

How do people measure up to be the standard God wants us to uphold? To imitate Christ I think is the right way. Meaning knowing Him and Doing what He asks. He left us a map so we can follow in his footsteps, Matthew, John, Luke And Mark are the maps that leads to eternal life if we follow it we find the treasure ( Eternal Life)

How about Jesus did it all. 100%

You do understand there is one requirement for salvation and following in His footsteps, as in our behaviour to emulate Him, is not how one receives the gift of salvation.