Do u believe this ?

CS1 said:

a couple of things I think need t be said Prior to The death of Jesus He as the God man emptied Himself and took on the Spirit of God for all that he did. The theological term is Kenosis. After the Resurrection Jesus was Gloried and Taking the keys of death, hell and the grave Rev 1:8

This is part od the work of the cross and the Lordship of Christ who is the Supreme Authority Because HE knows the will of the Father and it is not that Jesus must ask permission All HE does is already fully accepted by the Father Because He full know the Father and HIS will so. Jesus is not restraint at all. Nor limited.

we see the text in the Gospels of Jesus saying I do the will of my Father not of my own as a limitation. IT is not. John 6:38

The Holy Spirit work in the believer is to empower them to be a witness of The Lord Jesus, Acts 1:8 Luke 24:49 John 14.

Now Jesus is not a k King like worldly kings , nor a Lord like worldly lords.
All will bow and confess. In Revelation chapter 2 and three Jesus is speaking He alone is laying down the law. why? Because the Father has placed in HIS hands.

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Jesus was restrained in that His desire could conflict with His Father’s. Yet, Jesus never disobeyed His Father. He did the will of His Father perfectly.
BECAUSE that was true, after His death He was given all authority in heaven and on earth. Christ Jesus is now only restrained by love, as it is His nature.
A son of God (huios of God: a mature son who represents the Father) will only do what he sees his Father doing. When he walks in such a way, with grace, more responsibility will be given to him. He may even be given, like Paul, Peter, and John, sons in the faith to watch over to the extent they must give an account to God for their care.

Aaron56 said:

Jesus was restrained in that His desire could conflict with His Father’s. Yet, Jesus never disobeyed His Father. He did the will of His Father perfectly.
BECAUSE that was true, after His death He was given all authority in heaven and on earth. Christ Jesus is now only restrained by love, as it is His nature.
A son of God (huios of God: a mature son who represents the Father) will only do what he sees his Father doing. When he walks in such a way, with grace, more responsibility will be given to him. He may even be given, like Paul, Peter, and John, sons in the faith to watch over to the extent they must give an account to God for their care.

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I am not sure what you mean: "Jesus was restrained in that His desire could conflict with His Father’s."

You do not need to restrain a person who is willfully complying. Jesus had all authority as HE said " I can at this moment call of my Father ten thousand legions of Angel, telling Peter to put away His sword. Jesus fully Knew the Father. There was no Conflict with the Father at all. They were one.

Suze said:

Yes , we can tell them but , that doesn't seem to me to b about just words when Jesus tells his disciples that , it seems to b a power that he is giving them , to make a judgement and adjudicate accordingly . Maybe I'm reading too much into it

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That is a good question Suze.
I haven't taken time to read everyone's responses yet, but I can say that I agree with@passion84God . On his first post and the one below that I've had time to read so far.

The Catholic religion has made this something restricted to the priest confessional: However, I see that saved believers in Christ are all given the responsibility to "preach the gospel to every creature."
Mark 16.

Then the extension is in Matthew 28
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus has the authority and commands believers to go and teach/preach the gospel, while is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth....

If a believer leads someone to Christ and they answer questions showing that the called upon the Lord in faith in Him and what He accomplish for ours sins and salvation; I would say your original question applies.
That should be apparent from the testimony of the one who they witnessed to. Sometimes people just don't get it and they remain in faith in their own good deeds instead of the Lord. Those people's sins have not been remitted.
It's not complicated when we see why and how and what takes place at the sharing and hearing of the gospel.

What do you think about that Size?...Size. Size NO Suze!
I hate autocorrect.
I have a question too.
How can I turn it off??

CS1 said:

I am not sure what you mean: "Jesus was restrained in that His desire could conflict with His Father’s."

You do not need to restrain a person who is willfully complying. Jesus had all authority as HE said " I can at this moment call of my Father ten thousand legions of Angel, telling Peter to put away His sword. Jesus fully Knew the Father. There was no Conflict with the Father at all. They were one.

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“Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done.”
His will: “take this cup away from me”.
The Father’s will: “I will not”.

Even though Jesus had a personal will, He obeyed the Father.

Aaron56 said:

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done.”
His will: “take this cup away from me”.
The Father’s will: “I will not”.

Even though Jesus had a personal will, He obeyed the Father.

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that is not restraint Jesus was asking IF there is any other way to get this done, That is willful obedience. I guess were saying the same thing LOl. I see your point .

CS1 said:

that is not restraint Jesus was asking IF there is any other way to get this done, That is willful obedience. I guess were saying the same thing LOl. I see your point .

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If you’d like, I can explain why it is restraint.

Suze said:

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

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20:23 ἄν (ever) τινων (of whom pl.) ἀφῆτε (aorist active subjunctive, you pl. might start forgiving, τὰς ἁμαρτίας (accusative pl., the shortfalls) ἀφιένται (present indicative passive, they are being forgiven) αὐτοῖς (to them); ἄν (ever) τινων (of whom pl.) κρατῆτε (present active subjunctive you pl. may keep on retaining) κεκράτηνται (perfect passive indicative, they have been retained).

The sins of whomever you start to forgive, those sins are being forgiven to them; the sins of whomsoever you keep on retaining, those sins have been retained.

Grammatically, the objects of forgiveness are the sins of people, not the people. Jesus does not say “The people (accusative plural) whose sins you forgive, they (those people) are being forgiven.” Those who have the Holy Spirit are not declaring the people forgiven, but they are declaring forgiven particular sins of those people. Jesus is the one who declares individuals forgiven before God. All judgment has been given to the Son. Disciples have authority to forgive particular sins for which they are still holding others accountable. And with the measure we mete out mercy, by that measure we will receive mercy from God. The sins we continue to hold against others, God will continue to hold against us.

I think what Jesus is doing here is restating the principle behind the parable of the unforgiving servant, saying, “Because you have confessed me as your Lord and you believe I have risen from the dead, I am giving you the Holy Spirit. He will lesd you into ll truth snd will show you how many of your sins I died to release you from, and if you want to retain my forgiveness of the debts you owed Me, you need to forgive others of their debts they owe to you. The sins against you for which you are forgiving others, they are also being forgiven to you. The sins against yourself that you keep holding others accountable for, if you have also committed those same sins, you continue to be accountable for those sins of yours.

Understanding this (the parable of the unforgiving servant), over the next forty-nine days, the disciples were able to forgive one another of all their past offences, so that "when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place" (Acts 2:2)

Aaron56 said:

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done.”
His will: “take this cup away from me”.
The Father’s will: “I will not”.

Even though Jesus had a personal will, He obeyed the Father.

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I dont think any one in there right mind would want to take on the wrath of God.....I think your reading this wrong my friend.

Suze said:

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

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Hi Suze. 1 Peter 2:9 says that we (believers) are a "royal priesthood"

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2:9 (NIV)

Is it possible that this was exampled in the stoning death of Steven?


Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep

Aaron56 said:

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

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Perhaps He’s speaking to the Holy Spirit He just Breathed on them?

Suze said:

Yes , we can tell them but , that doesn't seem to me to b about just words when Jesus tells his disciples that , it seems to b a power that he is giving them , to make a judgement and adjudicate accordingly . Maybe I'm reading too much into it

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When i envisage what living forever might be like, i do think many saved will share power with Jesus regarding the outcome of our earthly home and it's inhabitants. At least for the first millennium post-Armageddon.

However, i do see that as just being a staging post in our future. Being a very strong entp, i do like to wonder about what other pots the Lord might have on the boil and imagine what might feature in forever. Also, he has placed forever/eternity in our hearts, which i think is where our actual brain/consciousness of being is. To use computer parts as examples, i envisage the heart as the motherboard and what we call the brain now, as the cpu/processor.

I really love considering future possibilities

Suze said:

So , I'm reading the Gospel of John . Ch 20 , verses 22+23 . Jesus breathes on his disciples and bestows upon them the Holy Spirit . Firstly , who was there , just the 11 or , lots of disciples ?
Secondly , would that include any women that were there ?
Now verse 23 ; Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted to them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained .
If u , me , any of us , believe that we have the permenant indwelling of God's Holy Spirit , in the same way that these disciples / apostles had , do we have the power / responsibility / ability , to remit or retain another person's sins to them ? If u believe this please explain , if u don't believe this please explain . Looking forward to your input .

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In John 20:22–23 the most natural reading is that Jesus is addressing the core apostolic group—the Eleven—rather than a mixed gathering of disciples. John has already narrowed the scene to “the disciples” hiding behind locked doors (20:19), a description that fits the apostolic circle in the resurrection narratives. The immediate continuation with Thomas, explicitly called “one of the Twelve” (20:24), shows that the earlier group was the same apostolic band minus Thomas. And the content of the commissioning—“As the Father has sent me, so I send you,” along with the authority to forgive or retain sins—matches the apostolic mission in the Synoptics, not the broader group of followers. For these reasons, mainstream Johannine scholarship understands this as a private apostolic commissioning scene, not a mixed gathering that included women.

It’s also important to see that Jesus is not giving the Eleven authority to invent doctrine or to decide spiritual truth on their own. The commissioning in John 20:22–23 assumes continuity, not innovation. They are being sent as witnesses to what Jesus has already taught them, and they will speak further only as the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance and unfolds what Christ has already revealed (cf. John 14:26; 16:13). The authority to forgive or retain sins is therefore ministerial, not creative—it rests on faithfully representing the message they received from Jesus, not on generating new doctrine. In other words, the apostles are authorized heralds of a fixed revelation, not theological free agents.

God-fearing said:

I dont think any one in there right mind would want to take on the wrath of God.....I think your reading this wrong my friend.

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Shall I expound upon the differences between God the Father and Jesus or are you content with your current level of understanding?

Roger316 said:

In John 20:22–23 the most natural reading is that Jesus is addressing the core apostolic group—the Eleven—rather than a mixed gathering of disciples. John has already narrowed the scene to “the disciples” hiding behind locked doors (20:19), a description that fits the apostolic circle in the resurrection narratives. The immediate continuation with Thomas, explicitly called “one of the Twelve” (20:24), shows that the earlier group was the same apostolic band minus Thomas. And the content of the commissioning—“As the Father has sent me, so I send you,” along with the authority to forgive or retain sins—matches the apostolic mission in the Synoptics, not the broader group of followers. For these reasons, mainstream Johannine scholarship understands this as a private apostolic commissioning scene, not a mixed gathering that included women.

It’s also important to see that Jesus is not giving the Eleven authority to invent doctrine or to decide spiritual truth on their own. The commissioning in John 20:22–23 assumes continuity, not innovation. They are being sent as witnesses to what Jesus has already taught them, and they will speak further only as the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance and unfolds what Christ has already revealed (cf. John 14:26; 16:13). The authority to forgive or retain sins is therefore ministerial, not creative—it rests on faithfully representing the message they received from Jesus, not on generating new doctrine. In other words, the apostles are authorized heralds of a fixed revelation, not theological free agents.

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Agreed. I think that's a fine summary the verses. They will go to act through the Spirit, who will act in them the will of the Father.

Well, I say summary even though it was longer thank the verses, but you get it...!

PennEd said:

Perhaps He’s speaking to the Holy Spirit He just Breathed on them?

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“You" is plural, so not Jesus would not seem to be addressing the Holy Spirit, Who is singular.

Aaron56 said:

If you’d like, I can explain why it is restraint.

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please

Aaron56 said:

Shall I expound upon the differences between God the Father and Jesus or are you content with your current level of understanding?

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Please do... i always have 2 reasons to hear any difference
1. I may have not know and therefore add to my knowledge of the word .
2. I now can understand how people can be deceived and know what the enemy is up to.

Let me leave you with this.
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jhn 10:30 I and my Father are one
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

OK your turn

John 8​

19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

God-fearing said:

Please do... i always have 2 reasons to hear any difference
1. I may have not know and therefore add to my knowledge of the word .
2. I now can understand how people can be deceived and know what the enemy is up to.

Let me leave you with this.
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jhn 10:30 I and my Father are one
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

OK your turn

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Since you started it...

Did Jesus change from being a little baby to an adult man? If you answer "Yes" then how do you deal with "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever."?

Furthermore, Jesus refers to Himself as "the Son of Man" many times. How do you reconcile that with the verse you quoted "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent..."?