Anabaptist

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I've done a little reading on the anabaptist but I'm curious as to what is unusual in their belief system that is not in other Protestant movements anyone know
I am in agreement with many modern Anabaptists on many points. In addition, I have a connection to them through my sister and her family who are members of an Anabaptist community. What is interesting to me is how much hatred the so-called "Reformers" had for a much smaller group of Christians devoted to non-violence and to non-participation in government.

The self-righteous hatred Martin Luther is what drove him to lead mobs to exterminate them by drowning (in mockery of their refusal to baptize infants) and in killing them by the traditional penalty the R.C.C. reserved for heretics which was burning them alive. Luther personally witnessed Anabaptists being slain by the thousands. As for Zwingli, let it not be said that he was a hypocrite. Zwingli did his part, donning armor, taking up the sword, and butchering them personally . Though John Calvin did not have the stomach to watch Servetus writhe in agony as he burned alive, he did show up afterwards to view his good work.

Calvin, viewed the execution of heretics as necessary for the preservation of TRUE FAITH. It seems that, the Reformers thought that believing correct doctrine was more important than following the weighter matters of Christ command to love the members of His body which was not a deep theological truth. The Lord said: 27 But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
(Luke 6:27)
 
Are you an adherent of the Orthodox Church?
I am not Orthodox but my father was and so is my son. I used to work as a counselor for the Orthodox Church due to my connection to them through my father. Of course, I never recommended that anyone do anything I myself did not believe - such as venerating the saints or "asking them to pray for us." Still, I got along okay with them, disagreeing with them only when they were pressing me with some point. I got to be very close friends with the Priest of that Church and his wife and family.

Long before I met any of these people, I started reading the Early Church Fathers - the Early Ante-Nicene generation. I was interested in finding out what the first three generations of teachers who lived closer to the time of the Apostles actually taught and how what they said compared to what I believed. I found that what they said was much closer to how I understood the scriptures than the deterministic theological system invented by Augustine.

Although the Orthodox are careful not to disrespect Augustine (for his early apologetic work) they are reluctant to call him a Church Father because he took Christendom in an entirely different direction than the gospel that had been delivered once for all time to the saints. One of his major departures was on the point of human free will which the Greek-speaking teachers had been teaching ever since the earliest centuries of the Church. No one talked about God unilaterally destining specific people to be saved until Augustine came along in the Fifth Century. Unfortunately, most doctrinal descendents of Augustine such as Martin Luther and John Calvin were avid students of Augustine. They would have done better reading John Chrysostom.

The method of interpretation used by these two contemporaries was different too. Augustine, followed the Alexandrian "School" of interpretation which relied on allegory and typology. By contrast, Chrysostom followed the Antiochan school which we call the historical-grammatical method. I don't know about you, but I tend to distrust the allegorical approach which I consider to be mystical.

One of the main reasons Augustine failed to understand the scriptures was his abysmal ignorance of the Koine Greek Language. By that time those who continued to lived in the Eastern half of the Roman Empire continued speaking and reading Greek. They could still read the original text of scripture and to understand what the ECF had been teaching. Since Augustine could only read Latin he had to rely on corrupt Latin texts which had been translated before the better translation made by Jerome.

The Reformers who were Augustininan-Calvinists who adopted theistic determinism and human helplessness which Augustine had learned while he was a member of the Persian cult of Manichaeism. Theistic determinism and total inability contradict God's offer of the Gospel of Salvation as proclaimed by Jesus and the Apostles. How far off the mark Augustine, Calvin and Luther became crystal clear in the last exchange we had with that camp. Unfortunately, I was not able to support you and the few that took up your point because I have been very sick and was actually admitted into the hospital twice in the last few weeks. Anyway, I commend you for fighting the good fight.
 
I am not Orthodox but my father was and so is my son. I used to work as a counselor for the Orthodox Church due to my connection to them through my father. Of course, I never recommended that anyone do anything I myself did not believe - such as venerating the saints or "asking them to pray for us." Still, I got along okay with them, disagreeing with them only when they were pressing me with some point. I got to be very close friends with the Priest of that Church and his wife and family.

Long before I met any of these people, I started reading the Early Church Fathers - the Early Ante-Nicene generation. I was interested in finding out what the first three generations of teachers who lived closer to the time of the Apostles actually taught and how what they said compared to what I believed. I found that what they said was much closer to how I understood the scriptures than the deterministic theological system invented by Augustine.

Although the Orthodox are careful not to disrespect Augustine (for his early apologetic work) they are reluctant to call him a Church Father because he took Christendom in an entirely different direction than the gospel that had been delivered once for all time to the saints. One of his major departures was on the point of human free will which the Greek-speaking teachers had been teaching ever since the earliest centuries of the Church. No one talked about God unilaterally destining specific people to be saved until Augustine came along in the Fifth Century. Unfortunately, most doctrinal descendents of Augustine such as Martin Luther and John Calvin were avid students of Augustine. They would have done better reading John Chrysostom.

The method of interpretation used by these two contemporaries was different too. Augustine, followed the Alexandrian "School" of interpretation which relied on allegory and typology. By contrast, Chrysostom followed the Antiochan school which we call the historical-grammatical method. I don't know about you, but I tend to distrust the allegorical approach which I consider to be mystical.

One of the main reasons Augustine failed to understand the scriptures was his abysmal ignorance of the Koine Greek Language. By that time those who continued to lived in the Eastern half of the Roman Empire continued speaking and reading Greek. They could still read the original text of scripture and to understand what the ECF had been teaching. Since Augustine could only read Latin he had to rely on corrupt Latin texts which had been translated before the better translation made by Jerome.

The Reformers who were Augustininan-Calvinists who adopted theistic determinism and human helplessness which Augustine had learned while he was a member of the Persian cult of Manichaeism. Theistic determinism and total inability contradict God's offer of the Gospel of Salvation as proclaimed by Jesus and the Apostles. How far off the mark Augustine, Calvin and Luther became crystal clear in the last exchange we had with that camp. Unfortunately, I was not able to support you and the few that took up your point because I have been very sick and was actually admitted into the hospital twice in the last few weeks. Anyway, I commend you for fighting the good fight.

Thank you so much for taking the time to provide this information.
It is very helpful and interesting.

They would have done better reading John Chrysostom.

Yes agree.

I also think they fashioned scripture into what they wanted it to say and that approach carries on to this day, it really is not good.

Thank you for the words of support, I much appreciated your very thoughtful and informed posts.
I pray you are doing better now. 🙏
 
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What happens alot, is people think Baptist and then that is Baptists from the Reformation..or at least when they had a formalized confession of beliefs.. I.e London confession in 1600s.

Then they think of Anabaptists and they are thinking of mennonites and the like.

The fact is the distinctive Baptist beliefs, that are firmly rooted in the bible..go way before the Reformation,RC, and link to the earliest churches.

The problem is their history wasn't recorded much by their own people and so the Reformation and RC writers were the ones who mainly did the writing.

Most of them treated them as wayward not because they weren't Biblical Christians..but because they didn't conform to pedobaptism..worship of Mary.. the universal rc church etc.

Establishing a definite link between each real Biblical church in these Anabaptists is a fruitless exercise, because of this history of churches that disappear and reappear in history books.

The fact is modern independent Baptists and some other independent churches share this baptistic teaching from way back.
 
Today there are different "flavors" of both Amish and Mennonite. In the 1500 some of the anabaptists did go off the rails at Munster. Both the Lutherans and Catholics wanted to exterminate them.

This is true.
John Calvin was also another who did not tolerate Baptist churches. Today a lot of Baptist churches consider themselves Calvinist or Reformed.
There are exceptions according to a non-calvinist Baptist pastor I once met; however in my local county they teach hard core works salvation and call it faith.

Perhaps it was the awareness of the hostility of established churches to the concept of adult baptism that motivated the KJV translators to avoid the translation of baptizo as immersion and instead use a transliteration "baptize".

If you research the etymology and history of the word, you'll find that all the great translators transliterated it from Erasmus forward. The term was already established and true Christ believing, Bible studying preachers knew what it meant.

Im just a humble English speaker but can teach it's meaning from the context to new believers.
Those unbelievers who are convinced in sprinkling or pouring or baptizing babies are not going to change their minds until they are open to believing the gospel.

Once they are receptive to gospel truth that salvation is by grace and through faith, and that baptism (any kind) is a work, they have a choice to make. Do they trust Jesus, or do they trust their works/sacraments? If they decide to believe in Jesus, then I teach them about following the Lord in baptism which is a reasonable response to the gift giver they trusted.
 
What happens alot, is people think Baptist and then that is Baptists from the Reformation..or at least when they had a formalized confession of beliefs.. I.e London confession in 1600s.

Then they think of Anabaptists and they are thinking of mennonites and the like.

The fact is the distinctive Baptist beliefs, that are firmly rooted in the bible..go way before the Reformation,RC, and link to the earliest churches.

The problem is their history wasn't recorded much by their own people and so the Reformation and RC writers were the ones who mainly did the writing.

Most of them treated them as wayward not because they weren't Biblical Christians..but because they didn't conform to pedobaptism..worship of Mary.. the universal rc church etc.

Establishing a definite link between each real Biblical church in these Anabaptists is a fruitless exercise, because of this history of churches that disappear and reappear in history books.

The fact is modern independent Baptists and some other independent churches share this baptistic teaching from way back.
True, plus the Dark Ages were characterized by the burning of books that Rome did not approve of. Few survived.

Even in this age of information, those who are writers of Biblical Baptist distinctives will be far less promoted than the pop culture preachers of mega churches.
Back in the day, Catholics had the established state promoted religion.
 
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Anabaptists and water?

Precious friends, are there not Many Severe:

Problems with water Under Grace, Today?:

1) 11 - 16(?) Different Confusing denominational traditions about it?

2) baptismal regenerationists bring it over from The Law and insist it is necessary for salvation?
Meanwhile:


3) There is discrimination [ from both ''immersionist'' groups (re- and non-regenerationists) who insist it
is for obedience for all today, but with differing reasons ] against those who are disabled, bedridden,
homebound, in wheelchairs, and ones on their deathbed, who wish to be saved, but Can't obey these
traditions of men [ "condemned By Jesus" (Matthew 15:3 AV et al) ]?

Did not God Take Care Of All of these Confusing problems with His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided, With This Important Grace Doctrine?:
...There Is Now Only "...One Baptism..." (Ephesians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13 AV)​
Under Grace, Today = NO water At All, Ending All the Above Confusion?

======
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:


The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.