2 Timothy 4: 3

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Watchman22

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2 tim. 4: 3

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lasts will they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

Are we there?
The sound doctrine is simple, how we respond to the call of the Father .

The word in the Greek is pisteuo. It's defined as a" personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " but the English language doesn't have a word to translate pisteuo, so the translators chose the words believe, believer, and believing. A part of pisteuo, but taken as the whole is error and is not sound doctrine.

Most of Christianity is standing on this half truth, and will not give it up. In fact they will fight tooth and nail to protect it. Even the so called teachers are supporting this half truth as the whole truth. ( itching ears) After 38 years of trying to warn others, I think people just want that kind of Christianity where they think they can have a life in Christ, and continue to have their life also. This goes against the sound doctrine of " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Im not finding many called out ones that are standing whole heartedly on the continually surrendered life. So are we there? Are we living 2Tim.4:3 as we speak?
 
2 tim. 4: 3

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lasts will they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

Are we there?
The sound doctrine is simple, how we respond to the call of the Father .

The word in the Greek is pisteuo. It's defined as a" personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " but the English language doesn't have a word to translate pisteuo, so the translators chose the words believe, believer, and believing. A part of pisteuo, but taken as the whole is error and is not sound doctrine.

Most of Christianity is standing on this half truth, and will not give it up. In fact they will fight tooth and nail to protect it. Even the so called teachers are supporting this half truth as the whole truth. ( itching ears) After 38 years of trying to warn others, I think people just want that kind of Christianity where they think they can have a life in Christ, and continue to have their life also. This goes against the sound doctrine of " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Im not finding many called out ones that are standing whole heartedly on the continually surrendered life. So are we there? Are we living 2Tim.4:3 as we speak?

Anyone with sound doctrine out there?
 
The relationship between pistis and pitheo is an interesting one.

I think the English word "trust" better captures the concept more than "believe".

Sound doctrine is sort of a moving target. As one grows in understanding, what was once seen as sound can be viewed by one more mature as incomplete or even in error.

Denominations tend to package their doctrine as complete and final which can limit growth.

"Sound doctrine" is not always discernable to the immature.
 
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The relationship between pistis and pitheo is an interesting one.

I think the English word "trust" better captures the concept more than "believe".

Sound doctrine is sort of a moving target. As one grows in understanding, what was once seen as sound can be viewed by one more mature as incomplete or even in error.

Denominations tend to package their doctrine as complete and final which can limit growth.

"Sound doctrine" is not always discernable to the immature.

I know because I've had the experience that the Vines gives the best definition, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ". I just call it a continually surrendered life.

There are instances where trust would apply better. But if they wanted to communicate trust, there's a specific Greek word for trust.

Pisteuo is used 248 times, the foundational communication for Pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Tim, do you know anyone that teaches to become a Christian, you must continually surrender your life to Jesus?
 
Tim, do you know anyone that teaches to become a Christian, you must continually surrender your life to Jesus?
The "continual" and "surrender" aspect seems to imply a works effort. I see trusting in Jesus as a one time event. There is an expectation that what will "continue" is a process of transformation, abandoning the selfishness of the flesh and increasing in walking by the Spirit as we transform into the selfless love of Christ-likeness.

There are particular denominations that place an emphasis on works almost as if bragging rights attend those who claim the greatest spirituality.
 
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The "continual" and "surrender" aspect seems to imply a works effort. I see trusting in Jesus as a one time event. There is an expectation that what will "continue" is a process of transformation, abandoning the selfishness of the flesh and increasing in walking by the Spirit as we transform into the selfless love of Christ-likeness.

There are particular denominations that place an emphasis on works almost as if bragging rights attend those who claim the greatest spirituality.

No bragging, faith takes work and effort, it always has. 95% courage, 4% tenacity, and % everything else.

When faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo were mistranslated into the English language, suddenly no work or effort is required.

And hence 2Tim 4:3 was born.
 
2 tim. 4: 3

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lasts will they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

Are we there?
The sound doctrine is simple, how we respond to the call of the Father .

The word in the Greek is pisteuo. It's defined as a" personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " but the English language doesn't have a word to translate pisteuo, so the translators chose the words believe, believer, and believing. A part of pisteuo, but taken as the whole is error and is not sound doctrine.

Most of Christianity is standing on this half truth, and will not give it up. In fact they will fight tooth and nail to protect it. Even the so called teachers are supporting this half truth as the whole truth. ( itching ears) After 38 years of trying to warn others, I think people just want that kind of Christianity where they think they can have a life in Christ, and continue to have their life also. This goes against the sound doctrine of " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Im not finding many called out ones that are standing whole heartedly on the continually surrendered life. So are we there? Are we living 2Tim.4:3 as we speak?
Some people think this is speaking of people that claim Christ as Savior but are hypocritical but it is not.

This is the new age christianity the religion of the antichrist.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

The new age christianity that shall come out at the latter times which is of seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Some shall depart from the faith and follow them.

Which they interpret the Bible and religions according to the occult and evolution, and people are going to evolve to be spiritual, and greater, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior but a good teacher in enlightenment who became an ascended master, and there is no personal God but they honor the God of forces the power of the Cosmos, and the New Age Christ is the next world teacher and above Jesus.

When the antichrist starts working in the world he will push the agenda of the new age which will be the time that people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but according to their own lusts.

Alice Bailey the biggest prophet of the new age was a fundamental Christian but received another interpretation of the Bible by a Tibetan monk.

She was married to a Freemason that agreed with her teachings.

She said there is an inner circle and an outer circle of the occult and the inner circle is the true church.

Freemasonry has an inner circle as well as occult organizations and secret societies.

Alice Bailey's teachings and writings, lucistrust.org.

There are comments on the World Wide Web claiming that the Lucis Trust was once called the Lucifer Trust. Such was never the case.

However, for a brief period of two or three years in the early 1920’s, when Alice and Foster Bailey were beginning to publish the books published under her name, they named their fledgling publishing company “Lucifer Publishing Company”.

By 1925 the name was changed to Lucis Publishing Company and has remained so ever since.

Both “Lucifer” and “Lucis” come from the same word root, lucis being the Latin generative case meaning of light.

The Baileys' reasons for choosing the original name are not known to us, but we can only surmise that they, like the great teacher H.P. Blavatsky, for whom they had enormous respect, sought to elicit a deeper understanding of the sacrifice made by Lucifer.

Alice and Foster Bailey were serious students and teachers of Theosophy, a spiritual tradition which views Lucifer as one of the solar Angels, those advanced Beings Who Theosophy says descended (thus “the fall”) from Venus to our planet eons ago to bring the principle of mind to what was then animal-man.

In the theosophical perspective, the descent of these solar Angels was not a fall into sin or disgrace but rather an act of great sacrifice, as is suggested in the name “Lucifer” which means light-bearer.

The new age christianity the religion of antichrist.

They believe Lucifer is a god, and an alien, that gave mankind intelligence, and will help mankind to have peace, advance, and evolve to be spiritual, and greater.

Which is the 5th root race, 6th sub-race, of the evolutionary process.

When the 7 root race, 7th sub-race, is finished the evolutionary process is complete.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
Some people think this is speaking of people that claim Christ as Savior but are hypocritical but it is not.

This is the new age christianity the religion of the antichrist.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

The new age christianity that shall come out at the latter times which is of seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Some shall depart from the faith and follow them.

Which they interpret the Bible and religions according to the occult and evolution, and people are going to evolve to be spiritual, and greater, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior but a good teacher in enlightenment who became an ascended master, and there is no personal God but they honor the God of forces the power of the Cosmos, and the New Age Christ is the next world teacher and above Jesus.

When the antichrist starts working in the world he will push the agenda of the new age which will be the time that people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but according to their own lusts.

Alice Bailey the biggest prophet of the new age was a fundamental Christian but received another interpretation of the Bible by a Tibetan monk.

She was married to a Freemason that agreed with her teachings.

She said there is an inner circle and an outer circle of the occult and the inner circle is the true church.

Freemasonry has an inner circle as well as occult organizations and secret societies.

Alice Bailey's teachings and writings, lucistrust.org.

There are comments on the World Wide Web claiming that the Lucis Trust was once called the Lucifer Trust. Such was never the case.

However, for a brief period of two or three years in the early 1920’s, when Alice and Foster Bailey were beginning to publish the books published under her name, they named their fledgling publishing company “Lucifer Publishing Company”.

By 1925 the name was changed to Lucis Publishing Company and has remained so ever since.

Both “Lucifer” and “Lucis” come from the same word root, lucis being the Latin generative case meaning of light.

The Baileys' reasons for choosing the original name are not known to us, but we can only surmise that they, like the great teacher H.P. Blavatsky, for whom they had enormous respect, sought to elicit a deeper understanding of the sacrifice made by Lucifer.

Alice and Foster Bailey were serious students and teachers of Theosophy, a spiritual tradition which views Lucifer as one of the solar Angels, those advanced Beings Who Theosophy says descended (thus “the fall”) from Venus to our planet eons ago to bring the principle of mind to what was then animal-man.

In the theosophical perspective, the descent of these solar Angels was not a fall into sin or disgrace but rather an act of great sacrifice, as is suggested in the name “Lucifer” which means light-bearer.

The new age christianity the religion of antichrist.

They believe Lucifer is a god, and an alien, that gave mankind intelligence, and will help mankind to have peace, advance, and evolve to be spiritual, and greater.

Which is the 5th root race, 6th sub-race, of the evolutionary process.

When the 7 root race, 7th sub-race, is finished the evolutionary process is complete.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Im not in disagreement with the idea 2Tim.4:3 will end up where you have stated. But I think it begins right in the midst of the called out ones, with teachers supporting the unsound doctrine like we are seeing now.
 
I don't know how anyone could read the New Testament and not understand they must live their life in surrender to Christ. Some people just bury their heads in the sand when it come to certain teachings.
 
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2 tim. 4: 3

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lasts will they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears."

Are we there?
The sound doctrine is simple, how we respond to the call of the Father .

The word in the Greek is pisteuo. It's defined as a" personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " but the English language doesn't have a word to translate pisteuo, so the translators chose the words believe, believer, and believing. A part of pisteuo, but taken as the whole is error and is not sound doctrine.

Most of Christianity is standing on this half truth, and will not give it up. In fact they will fight tooth and nail to protect it. Even the so called teachers are supporting this half truth as the whole truth. ( itching ears) After 38 years of trying to warn others, I think people just want that kind of Christianity where they think they can have a life in Christ, and continue to have their life also. This goes against the sound doctrine of " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Im not finding many called out ones that are standing whole heartedly on the continually surrendered life. So are we there? Are we living 2Tim.4:3 as we speak?

TOP #256: The time will come when many will reject true teachings in order to do what they desire. [2Tim. 4:3-4, Tit. 1:14]
Instead, they will believe human traditions (cf. TOP #202, 204, 205), which Paul called “myths” here and in TOP #227 & 235.

TOP #202: Repentance or conversion should be followed by learning more of God’s Word (LGW) in order to avoid being deceived by atheist philosophy. [Col. 2:7-8, cf. TOP #255]. This truth, called discipleship or sanctification, is akin to TOP #155&157. The part of GW that is necessary to believe for salvation is the Gospel (which may be called the kerygma or preaching), and the additional learning that needs to occur for spiritual maturation is the “all truth” in John 16:13 and the “all things/everything” in Matt. 28:20 (which may be called the didache or teaching).

TOP #204: Observing the Sabbath or other laws not reaffirmed in the NT is optional. [Col. 2:16-17 & 21-23, cf. Romans 14, TOP #70] Such laws are optional because they are not part of the eternal moral code. However, even observing those is not the way to obtain salvation/the HS.

TOP #205: Do not be led astray by those who advocate humility, angel worship or seeing visions. [Col. 2:18-19] This surely applies to those who elevate monasticism, adoration of saints and mysticism above faith in Christ.

TOP #227: Christians must not teach false doctrines about myths, genealogies and the law. [1Tim. 1:3-7, 4:7, 6:3-5, 2Tim. 4:4 & Tit. 1:14] Such doctrines promote controversy rather than faith in the Gospel and love.

TOP #235: False teachings include forbidding marriage and abstaining from good food.
[1Tim. 4:2-5, cf. TOP #227] The issue regarding food sacrificed to idols is TOP #96, but perhaps this teaching includes dietary restrictions Moses gave the Israelites, which Paul called “godless myths and old wives’ tales” (v.7).
 
The "continual" and "surrender" aspect seems to imply a works effort. I see trusting in Jesus as a one time event. There is an expectation that what will "continue" is a process of transformation, abandoning the selfishness of the flesh and increasing in walking by the Spirit as we transform into the selfless love of Christ-likeness.

There are particular denominations that place an emphasis on works almost as if bragging rights attend those who claim the greatest spirituality.
A life inspired by surrender to Christ is in regard to discipleship and not justification. Watchman22 has merged faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (a life inspired by such surrender) which culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness. Faith then becomes a lifestyle maintenance, performance system, which directly contradicts (Romans 4:5-6)

What pisteuō actually means in the New Testament:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, commit to, to place confidence in.

 
A life inspired by surrender to Christ is in regard to discipleship and not justification. Watchman22 has merged faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (a life inspired by such surrender) which culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness. Faith then becomes a lifestyle maintenance, performance system, which directly contradicts (Romans 4:5-6)

What pisteuō actually means in the New Testament:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, commit to, to place confidence in.


Conversion/justification should not be divorced from discipleship/sanctification.
Rom. 4:5-6 should be harmonized with Rom. 1:17, 5:5, 8:9 and Eph. 2:8-10, etc.

A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
 
A life inspired by surrender to Christ is in regard to discipleship and not justification. Watchman22 has merged faith (the means of receiving salvation) with discipleship (a life inspired by such surrender) which culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness. Faith then becomes a lifestyle maintenance, performance system, which directly contradicts (Romans 4:5-6)

What pisteuō actually means in the New Testament:
To believe, to trust, to rely upon, commit to, to place confidence in.


So you surrender your life every day, all day if needed, and your seeing a person that is performance driven? Hey look at my life Lord?

You've missed the whole point, IT'S NOT YOUR LIFE ANYMORE! Nothing to point to , nothing to say hey look at me and my life.

Think things through a little bit, and let go of believing when you do.
 
Conversion/justification should not be divorced from discipleship/sanctification.
Rom. 4:5-6 should be harmonized with Rom. 1:17, 5:5, 8:9 and Eph. 2:8-10, etc.

A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

I agree, personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, starts, maintains, and completes the salvation journey.

The spiritual awakening, the receiving of the Holy spirit, the mind of Christ, justification ( to be seen as just like Christ) sanctification ( to be separated from our sinful nature's to God). All these things happen in a process or journey as the result of tested and tried faith and faithing. Less of us, more of Him.

If it were performance driven, that wouldn't be a legitimate surrendered life, that would be a business deal.
The key is to unlock the little doorways Jesus puts in front of us on the way, is by continuously surrendering ourselves over to Him. ( by faith and faithing)

Good post G.
 
I agree, personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, starts, maintains, and completes the salvation journey.

The spiritual awakening, the receiving of the Holy spirit, the mind of Christ, justification ( to be seen as just like Christ) sanctification ( to be separated from our sinful nature's to God). All these things happen in a process or journey as the result of tested and tried faith and faithing. Less of us, more of Him.be

If it were performance driven, that wouldn't be a legitimate surrendered life, that would be a business deal.
The key is to unlock the little doorways Jesus puts in front of us on the way, is by continuously surrendering ourselves over to Him. ( by faith and faithing)

Good post G.

Thanks, W. I would clarify that being "just like Christ" is imputed to Christians at conversion,
which is called "positional righteousness" because they are "IN" Christ (Rom. 3:22, 4:3, 5:1-2, Eph. 1:3-13),
and becoming perfectly like Christ morally is called "practical righteousness", which remains the goal
of faithing or surrendering in this life (Phil. 3:12).
 
Thanks, W. I would clarify that being "just like Christ" is imputed to Christians at conversion,
which is called "positional righteousness" because they are "IN" Christ (Rom. 3:22, 4:3, 5:1-2, Eph. 1:3-13),
and becoming perfectly like Christ morally is called "practical righteousness", which remains the goal
of faithing or surrendering in this life (Phil. 3:12).

As I stated in the salvation process, justification "to be SEEN as just like Christ" would take place after His spirit is given to us after the other mandatory happenings take place first. No moment of belief.

Are you still standing on " believing " as the first response to the call of the Father? Or can you allow yourself to accept the first response to be a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?
 
Thanks, W. I would clarify that being "just like Christ" is imputed to Christians at conversion,
which is called "positional righteousness" because they are "IN" Christ (Rom. 3:22, 4:3, 5:1-2, Eph. 1:3-13),
and becoming perfectly like Christ morally is called "practical righteousness", which remains the goal
of faithing or surrendering in this life (Phil. 3:12).

Let me rephrase.

The first act of faith, faithing.

The actual first act is to turn in the direction of the caller, repentance.
 
Let me rephrase.

The first act of faith, faithing.

The actual first act is to turn in the direction of the caller, repentance.

Yes, God initiates/calls all sinners; sinners repent/cooperate/surrender--or not (Acts 17:30, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
 
Yes, God initiates/calls all sinners; sinners repent/cooperate/surrender--or not (Acts 17:30, 1Tim. 2:3-4).

I've learned to give heed to every word you post, because I know you have intent and thought behind each one. A nd i like that.

The word I'd like to press you on is the word " all". Calls all sinners.

Even though Christ died and covered every sin past present and future , for all sinners.

With intensive mining into the Greek texts, it's clear. The Father calls a small group out from among a larger group that are not called. Not a popular truth, where do you stand on this? Or have you ever considered it?