This is not half bad actually and it's conceivable enough to justify your intentions.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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That accountability is what the apostle Paul states in the verses below.
Romans 11:17-22
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker
with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that
it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might
be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. See then the kindness and severity of God: to
those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off.
Israel was the example in the O.T and a powerful example for us to learn from.
We are saved by the grace of our Lord through our faith and that grace is His kindness and love.
Galatians 4:9:
But now that you have come to know God, or rather now that you have come to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and beggarly elementary things.
Paul seems to be saying that when you believe in Jesus you become known by God.
That is different to being known from eternity.
Naturally... from birth?
Our fallen flesh ruled over our soul.
Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them." Proverbs 13:24
On the natural level it is human morality imposed by parents over children that acts as a social restraint
by means of punishment and discipline.
According to the Bible? No.
We plan our way but God sets our steps. As he tells us in Ecclesiastes.
The choices we make always align with his plan for us.
Omnipotent Omniscient. Omnipresent.
Genez, your definition of election is a complete and utter scriptural bankruptcy. You have invented a fictional, humanistic theory where God doesn’t actually choose who is saved, but merely acts as a cosmic travel agent who shuffles people around the timeline of history based on what he foresees their free will doing. Let’s do some strict, honest exegesis and expose your total structural failure.
1. The Catastrophic Collapse of Your "Omniscience" Loophole
You claim that the decree of election simply means that God looked down the tunnels of time, saw who would choose to believe on their own, and then "elected" them based on that foresight.
You are teaching a flat-out denial of the Word of God. Open your Bible, Genez, and read the absolute judicial guardrail of Romans 9:11:
Let's apply basic courtroom logic to your position: If God elects a man because He foresees that the man will perform the spiritual act of faith, then God is choosing that man based on a future good work generated by the creature!
But the Holy Spirit explicitly strips away all future human actions—all good and all evil—before the infants are even born, precisely to prove that God's purpose in election is completely uncaused by anything inside the creature! God didn't choose us because He saw we would believe; we believe because God justified us freely, completely without a cause (Romans 3:24) in His eternal decree, and then vitally quickens us in time!
2. You Completely Misread the Destination of Election
You try to argue that God’s choice is merely about deciding when in history a person should be born, to determine what kind of earthly life they live.
You are completely altering the text. Look at what the Holy Spirit actually says God elects us to in Ephesians 1:4–5:
God did not elect us to a chronological time slot or a historical calendar; He elected specific individuals unto eternal salvation, holiness, blamelessness, and adoption as sons!
Your conditional system strips the word "choose" of its absolute meaning. In your theology, God doesn't choose anyone to be saved; man chooses himself by his own free will, and God just manages the logistics of when they are born. You have made man the ultimate sovereign over eternity.
3. Your Fabricated Earthly vs. Heavenly Division
You claim that God uses this foreknowledge to predetermine who goes to the "new earth" versus who goes to "Heaven." This is an unscriptural invention designed to mask the failure of your conditional timeline.
In Phase V (The Final Phase of Glorification), the entire body of the elect—the "godly seed" (Malachi 2:15)—are raised together in absolute incorruption and immortality (1 Cor 15:51-54). Christ doesn't divide His Church into separate cosmic waiting rooms; He brings the New Jerusalem down to a renewed creation where God dwells intimately with all His people (Revelation 21:1–3).
The Bottom Line
Your theology is just another branch of the conditional Way of Cain (Jude 1:11), where salvation ultimately hinges on human performance and human choice, rather than the unconditional decree of the King.
The Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24) is a finished, un-forfeitable victory. God planned it in election (Phase I), Christ legally executed it at the cross by making an end of sins while we were enemies (Romans 5:10, Daniel 9:24), and the Life-Giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45) vitally quickens the sheep without their permission (John 3:8).
Stop trying to turn the Sovereign Potter into a passive spectator who reacts to human decisions. Stop fighting the black-and-white ink of Romans 9:11, and bow to the absolute, discriminating sovereignty of the Lord!
Your definition of free will is unrealistic. By your definition, God does not have free will. He cannot lie, for example. So His will is also constrained, according to you.
It is not as if God is forced not to lie.
That He can not will to lie.
Having deficiency and weakness is what causes many to lie.
Instead... God has absolutely no need to lie.
For He has the perfect solution for everything.
And, being directed to "take our thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ" implies that our thoughts are, at least initially, 'free.'
Whilst your view sounds logical, it's not what the Bible teaches. God chooses who to save unconditionally, based entirely on His sovereign will rather than by looking ahead to see who would choose to believe.
God does not base His choice on any foreseen faith, merit, or good work in a person. Everyone is born spiritually dead in sin and naturally unable or unwilling to choose God on their own. Because humanity is fallen, any faith a person eventually has is viewed as a gift and result of God's prior choice and regeneration, not the cause of it.
The thing is,Scriptures tell us,we cannot choose to believe unless God's Holy Spirit intervenes first.
That same spiritual principle applies to all men.
Even those who ultimately reject God were drawn by God.
Right in Romans 1:18-22, it is made apparent that even the worst reprobate known to man was made at some point able to know God is real, and then, CHOSE not to accept God.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them,
because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine
nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been
made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give
thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Claiming to be wise, they became fools...
.........
The Romans verse cannot be construed as saying unbelievers understand the things of God.
Not if 1st Corinthians 2 is accurate.
Your reference to the potter and the clay is a blatant disegard of the context in Romans 9,10,11.
I asked AI whether in the context the honorable clay and common clay is Israel and the Gentiles?
Yes, absolutely. In fact, looking at the strict context of Romans 9–11, identifying the clay vessels as Israel and the Gentiles
is the most accurate way to understand Paul's argument. [1, 2, 3]
While this passage is often debated as a text about individual salvation or damnation, Paul explicitly names the groups he
is talking about just three verses later. [1, 2, 3]
1. Paul Explicitly Reveals the Identity in Verses 23–24
If you read just a tiny bit further down, Paul clearly explains who the "vessels" are: [1]
Paul is using the potter metaphor to justify why God is suddenly including the Gentiles (non-Jews) into His covenant
family while temporarily hardening a large portion of ethnic Israel. [1, 2]
2. The Meaning in Historical Context
- The "Lump" of Clay: Represents all of fallen humanity. From this same human race, God decides how to shape history. [1, 3, 4]
- The Common/Dishonorable Use (Unbelieving Israel): At that moment in history, the majority of ethnic Israel had rejected Jesus. Paul argues that God is sovereignly using Israel's rejection/hardening as a temporary "common vessel" to break open salvation for the rest of the world. [1, 2, 3, 4]
- The Honorable/Merciful Use (Believing Jews and Gentiles): God is fashioning a new "honorable vessel"—the Church—made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
3. The Old Testament Background
Paul didn't invent the potter and clay metaphor; he is quoting Jeremiah 18 and Isaiah 29/45.
In Jeremiah 18:1–6, God explicitly tells the prophet that the clay is the nation of Israel: "Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?" In the Old Testament, the metaphor was always corporate (about nations and groups), not about individual eternal destiny. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Summary of the Contextual View
Rather than arguing about individuals being pre-destined for heaven or hell, Paul is defending God's right to change his historical strategy. He is telling his Jewish readers: God is the potter. If He wants to reshape His plan to include the Gentiles and put unbelieving Israel on the back burner for a while, He has every right to do so.