Born Again - How Does That Relate To Us Today

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Musicmaster

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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We've all heard a common Christian teaching that “born again” applies to members of the Body of Christ (Gentile believers) today.

What does scripture say about “born again”? Was it exclusively for national Israel?

John 3 and 1 Peter 1, shows to us Jesus’s ministry to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” and Peter’s audience of scattered Jews, thus showing the term applies to them. Contrast Israel’s national salvation, involving being “born again,” with the Body of Christ’s individual salvation, described as becoming a “new creature.”

The goal of this post is to encourage readers to rightly divide scripture between prophecy (for Israel) and mystery (for the body of Christ) and to place their faith solely in the finished work of the risen Christ.

Key Points to Consider:​

1. Analysis of the Term “Born Again”​

  • Limited Scriptural Use
    • The term “born again” appears only three times in the Bible.
    • This contrasts with its frequent use in modern church language, which implies far more occurrences than the reality.
    • The specific mentions are twice in John 3 and once in 1 Peter 1.
  • Contextual Application to Israel
    • All three occurrences refer specifically to national Israel, not the Body of Christ (the Church).
2. John 3: Jesus and Nicodemus
  • Conversation Context
    • The dialogue is with Nicodemus, “a ruler of the Jews” (John 3:1), establishing a Jewish context, with never the Body of Christ in view.
    • At this time, Gentiles were “without Christ” and “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” (Ephesians 2:12), without connection to Israel’s covenants.
    • Jesus says in John 4:22, “salvation is of the Jews,” underscoring His earthly focus on Israel.
  • Focus of Jesus’ Earthly Ministry
    • Jesus was sent to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and came to His own, who largely did not receive Him (John 1:11).
    • He was a “minister of the circumcision” (Romans 15:8), confirming Old Testament promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    • The lost coin parable (Luke 15) is likened to Jesus seeking “lost sheep” Jews, like Nicodemus, who needed to repent and change their mind about Jesus as Messiah.
  • Israel as God’s “Firstborn”
    • Israel is called God’s “firstborn son” (Exodus 4:22), while Jesus is God’s “only begotten Son.”
    • “Born again” is tied to the one who was “firstborn.” Gentiles, not being part of the “firstborn,” therefore cannot be “born again.”
    • Analogy: “born again” relates to “firstborn” as the “new covenant” relates to the “old covenant" made ONLY with Israel.
  • Meaning of “Born of Water and of the Spirit”
    • “Born of water” (John 3:5) is interpreted as natural, physical birth—not water baptism—supported by Nicodemus’s question about re-entering a mother’s womb (v. 4), which Jesus does not correct.
    • Jesus confirms in v. 6: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh,” linking first birth (water) to the flesh.
    • “Born of the Spirit” refers to a necessary second, spiritual birth for Israel upon accepting Jesus as Messiah.
  • “Ye Must Be Born Again”
    • In John 3:7, Jesus says, “Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again.”
    • “Thee” is singular (Nicodemus); “ye” is plural (the nation of Israel—those who rejected Jesus—needing this second birth).

3. 1 Peter 1: The Scattered Strangers​

  • Salutation and Context
    • 1 Peter 1:23 mentions “being born again.” To identify the audience, examine the opening salutation.
    • 1 Peter 1:1 addresses “strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.”
  • Identifying the “Scattered”
    • Acts 11:19 describes those “scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen,” preaching “to none but unto the Jews only.” The Gentiles could not have been those who were scattered given that they had already been the occupiers of the Gentile nations.
    • Thus, Peter’s “born again” audience is the scattered Jews.
    • Replacement theology followers routinely violate this distinction in logic, thus injecting an amalgamation of scripture verses that simply don't support their stance.

4. Dispensational Division and Salvation​

  • Prophecy vs. Mystery
    • Dividing the Bible into Prophecy (Israel’s national salvation) and Mystery (the Church’s individual salvation), with differing instructions for each group is paramount to understanding.
  • Israel and the Church Distinguished
    • During Jesus’s earthly ministry, salvation was “of the Jews” (John 4:22), and the disciples were told to go “only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6).
    • For the Body of Christ, there is “neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28)—no distinction.
  • Two Destinies
    • Israel is the “born again” nation yet to be under a “better covenant,” with an earthly destination (the kingdom), the “little flock” of Luke 12:32.
    • The Church is a “new creature,” without covenants, destined for “heavenly places.”
  • Call to Correct Faith
    • There is reason for concern for the unsaved who followed Israel’s instructions (e.g., John 3) instead of trusting in the risen Christ alone and His finished cross work.
    • The correct path today is to be a “saved-by-grace-through-faith member of the Body of Christ.”
    • Believers are everlastingly secure in Christ and should “walk in love” (Ephesians 5:2). ✝️

MM
 
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Musicmaster said:
We've all heard a common Christian teaching that “born again” applies to members of the Body of Christ (Gentile believers) today.

What does scripture say about “born again”? Was it exclusively for national Israel?

John 3 and 1 Peter 1, shows to us Jesus’s ministry to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” and Peter’s audience of scattered Jews, thus showing the term applies to them. Contrast Israel’s national salvation, involving being “born again,” with the Body of Christ’s individual salvation, described as becoming a “new creature.”

The goal of this post is to encourage readers to rightly divide scripture between prophecy (for Israel) and mystery (for the body of Christ) and to place their faith solely in the finished work of the risen Christ.

Key Points to Consider:​

1. Analysis of the Term “Born Again”​

  • Limited Scriptural Use
    • The term “born again” appears only three times in the Bible.
    • This contrasts with its frequent use in modern church language, which implies far more occurrences than the reality.
    • The specific mentions are twice in John 3 and once in 1 Peter 1.
  • Contextual Application to Israel
    • All three occurrences refer specifically to national Israel, not the Body of Christ (the Church).
2. John 3: Jesus and Nicodemus
  • Conversation Context
    • The dialogue is with Nicodemus, “a ruler of the Jews” (John 3:1), establishing a Jewish context, with never the Body of Christ in view.
    • At this time, Gentiles were “without Christ” and “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” (Ephesians 2:12), without connection to Israel’s covenants.
    • Jesus says in John 4:22, “salvation is of the Jews,” underscoring His earthly focus on Israel.
  • Focus of Jesus’ Earthly Ministry
    • Jesus was sent to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and came to His own, who largely did not receive Him (John 1:11).
    • He was a “minister of the circumcision” (Romans 15:8), confirming Old Testament promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    • The lost coin parable (Luke 15) is likened to Jesus seeking “lost sheep” Jews, like Nicodemus, who needed to repent and change their mind about Jesus as Messiah.
  • Israel as God’s “Firstborn”
    • Israel is called God’s “firstborn son” (Exodus 4:22), while Jesus is God’s “only begotten Son.”
    • “Born again” is tied to the one who was “firstborn.” Gentiles, not being part of the “firstborn,” therefore cannot be “born again.”
    • Analogy: “born again” relates to “firstborn” as the “new covenant” relates to the “old covenant" made ONLY with Israel.
  • Meaning of “Born of Water and of the Spirit”
    • “Born of water” (John 3:5) is interpreted as natural, physical birth—not water baptism—supported by Nicodemus’s question about re-entering a mother’s womb (v. 4), which Jesus does not correct.
    • Jesus confirms in v. 6: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh,” linking first birth (water) to the flesh.
    • “Born of the Spirit” refers to a necessary second, spiritual birth for Israel upon accepting Jesus as Messiah.
  • “Ye Must Be Born Again”
    • In John 3:7, Jesus says, “Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again.”
    • “Thee” is singular (Nicodemus); “ye” is plural (the nation of Israel—those who rejected Jesus—needing this second birth).

3. 1 Peter 1: The Scattered Strangers​

  • Salutation and Context
    • 1 Peter 1:23 mentions “being born again.” To identify the audience, examine the opening salutation.
    • 1 Peter 1:1 addresses “strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.”
  • Identifying the “Scattered”
    • Acts 11:19 describes those “scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen,” preaching “to none but unto the Jews only.” The Gentiles could not have been those who were scattered given that they had already been the occupiers of the Gentile nations.
    • Thus, Peter’s “born again” audience is the scattered Jews.
    • Replacement theology followers routinely violate this distinction in logic, thus injecting an amalgamation of scripture verses that simply don't support their stance.

4. Dispensational Division and Salvation​

  • Prophecy vs. Mystery
    • Dividing the Bible into Prophecy (Israel’s national salvation) and Mystery (the Church’s individual salvation), with differing instructions for each group is paramount to understanding.
  • Israel and the Church Distinguished
    • During Jesus’s earthly ministry, salvation was “of the Jews” (John 4:22), and the disciples were told to go “only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6).
    • For the Body of Christ, there is “neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28)—no distinction.
  • Two Destinies
    • Israel is the “born again” nation yet to be under a “better covenant,” with an earthly destination (the kingdom), the “little flock” of Luke 12:32.
    • The Church is a “new creature,” without covenants, destined for “heavenly places.”
  • Call to Correct Faith
    • There is reason for concern for the unsaved who followed Israel’s instructions (e.g., John 3) instead of trusting in the risen Christ alone and His finished cross work.
    • The correct path today is to be a “saved-by-grace-through-faith member of the Body of Christ.”
    • Believers are everlastingly secure in Christ and should “walk in love” (Ephesians 5:2). ✝️

MM
Click to expand...
What is the destiny of the "new man" of Eph 2:15?
 
Musicmaster said:
We've all heard a common Christian teaching that “born again” applies to members of the Body of Christ (Gentile believers) today.

What does scripture say about “born again”? Was it exclusively for national Israel?

John 3 and 1 Peter 1, shows to us Jesus’s ministry to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” and Peter’s audience of scattered Jews, thus showing the term applies to them. Contrast Israel’s national salvation, involving being “born again,” with the Body of Christ’s individual salvation, described as becoming a “new creature.”

The goal of this post is to encourage readers to rightly divide scripture between prophecy (for Israel) and mystery (for the body of Christ) and to place their faith solely in the finished work of the risen Christ.

Key Points to Consider:​

1. Analysis of the Term “Born Again”​

  • Limited Scriptural Use
    • The term “born again” appears only three times in the Bible.
    • This contrasts with its frequent use in modern church language, which implies far more occurrences than the reality.
    • The specific mentions are twice in John 3 and once in 1 Peter 1.
  • Contextual Application to Israel
    • All three occurrences refer specifically to national Israel, not the Body of Christ (the Church).
2. John 3: Jesus and Nicodemus
  • Conversation Context
    • The dialogue is with Nicodemus, “a ruler of the Jews” (John 3:1), establishing a Jewish context, with never the Body of Christ in view.
    • At this time, Gentiles were “without Christ” and “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” (Ephesians 2:12), without connection to Israel’s covenants.
    • Jesus says in John 4:22, “salvation is of the Jews,” underscoring His earthly focus on Israel.
  • Focus of Jesus’ Earthly Ministry
    • Jesus was sent to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) and came to His own, who largely did not receive Him (John 1:11).
    • He was a “minister of the circumcision” (Romans 15:8), confirming Old Testament promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    • The lost coin parable (Luke 15) is likened to Jesus seeking “lost sheep” Jews, like Nicodemus, who needed to repent and change their mind about Jesus as Messiah.
  • Israel as God’s “Firstborn”
    • Israel is called God’s “firstborn son” (Exodus 4:22), while Jesus is God’s “only begotten Son.”
    • “Born again” is tied to the one who was “firstborn.” Gentiles, not being part of the “firstborn,” therefore cannot be “born again.”
    • Analogy: “born again” relates to “firstborn” as the “new covenant” relates to the “old covenant" made ONLY with Israel.
  • Meaning of “Born of Water and of the Spirit”
    • “Born of water” (John 3:5) is interpreted as natural, physical birth—not water baptism—supported by Nicodemus’s question about re-entering a mother’s womb (v. 4), which Jesus does not correct.
    • Jesus confirms in v. 6: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh,” linking first birth (water) to the flesh.
    • “Born of the Spirit” refers to a necessary second, spiritual birth for Israel upon accepting Jesus as Messiah.
  • “Ye Must Be Born Again”
    • In John 3:7, Jesus says, “Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again.”
    • “Thee” is singular (Nicodemus); “ye” is plural (the nation of Israel—those who rejected Jesus—needing this second birth).

3. 1 Peter 1: The Scattered Strangers​

  • Salutation and Context
    • 1 Peter 1:23 mentions “being born again.” To identify the audience, examine the opening salutation.
    • 1 Peter 1:1 addresses “strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.”
  • Identifying the “Scattered”
    • Acts 11:19 describes those “scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen,” preaching “to none but unto the Jews only.” The Gentiles could not have been those who were scattered given that they had already been the occupiers of the Gentile nations.
    • Thus, Peter’s “born again” audience is the scattered Jews.
    • Replacement theology followers routinely violate this distinction in logic, thus injecting an amalgamation of scripture verses that simply don't support their stance.

4. Dispensational Division and Salvation​

  • Prophecy vs. Mystery
    • Dividing the Bible into Prophecy (Israel’s national salvation) and Mystery (the Church’s individual salvation), with differing instructions for each group is paramount to understanding.
  • Israel and the Church Distinguished
    • During Jesus’s earthly ministry, salvation was “of the Jews” (John 4:22), and the disciples were told to go “only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6).
    • For the Body of Christ, there is “neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28)—no distinction.
  • Two Destinies
    • Israel is the “born again” nation yet to be under a “better covenant,” with an earthly destination (the kingdom), the “little flock” of Luke 12:32.
    • The Church is a “new creature,” without covenants, destined for “heavenly places.”
  • Call to Correct Faith
    • There is reason for concern for the unsaved who followed Israel’s instructions (e.g., John 3) instead of trusting in the risen Christ alone and His finished cross work.
    • The correct path today is to be a “saved-by-grace-through-faith member of the Body of Christ.”
    • Believers are everlastingly secure in Christ and should “walk in love” (Ephesians 5:2). ✝️

MM
Click to expand...
Weeeell the part that is not so biblical is saying conversion enters a believer into the body of Christ.

The body of Christ in 1st Corinthians 12 is the assembly of baptized believers at Corinth.

Paul calls the Corinthians 'you are the body of Christ and members in particular'

There is a lot more references also to a purely local body of Christ. For example, the Mathew 18 process of church discipline and Paul persecuting 'the church of God' in Acts...that was most surely the church at Jerusalem.

So I would argue that at conversion, a believer enters the Family of God and Kingdom, not the body of Christ until they join a local biblical NT church.

The horse, the cat, the car... singular standing for plural. Same with 'the church'

Blessings 🙌
 
Jesus came to preach the Christian way.

It is the same for Jew and Gentile.

Jesus said a person must be born again or they will not be able to enter heaven.

So it applies to both Jew and Gentile.

The kingdom will be restored to Israel.

Everything else is the same for the Jew and Gentile.

But all Israel has to do is repent and claim Jesus as Messiah the same as the Gentile.

Which Jesus said the Hebrews will not see Him again until they acknowledge Him as their Messiah.
 
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Dispensational heresy served on a plate of confusion. Very serious as this seems to be a hyper-dispensationalist view.
You just said the Church is without covenant... That means you are not saved if you aren't in covenant with God.

The Bible teaches, not read through the dispensational lenses that:

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

So no covenant equals no salvation. I hope you change your mind on this, and if not I hope God is willing to forgive this strange belief if you did it ignorantly.
 
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Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

The above verses are what Nicodemus was supposed to have known. These obviously apply to a situation where God acts to bring to Israel those of Israel who have been dispersed for the establishment of the earthly kingdom for the nation of Israel.

Since the phrase "born again" sounds so similar to the regeneration that happens to gentile believers in the gospel of grace, it is easy to see how the phrase would be adopted even though it can cause confusion. Paul writes to put on the new man and put off the old man. Which sounds similar to "born again", but doesn't quite fit.
 
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Mem said:
What is the destiny of the "new man" of Eph 2:15?
Click to expand...
Hello Mem ill start with explaining the context of the verse you quoted then answer your question;

“And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.” (Ephesians 2:17, NKJV)

To understand Ephesians 2:15, we must read it in its full context. Paul is speaking about Jews and Gentiles. The Gentiles, who were once “afar off,” have been brought near through Christ. Christ has made the two groups one, breaking down the “middle wall of separation” and removing the hostility between them (Ephesians 2:13–14).

Paul then says that Christ abolished “the law of commandments contained in ordinances” in His flesh (Ephesians 2:15). But notice what Paul says this accomplished: “to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.” Then he says that Christ reconciled both to God in one body through the cross (Ephesians 2:16).

Therefore, the context is not simply, “Christ abolished God's commandments.” Paul is explaining how the separation and hostility between Jews and Gentiles were removed so that both could become one people in Christ.

The Greek expression translated “commandments contained in ordinances” refers to commandments or regulations expressed as ordinances or decrees. Paul does not say, “the Ten Commandments were abolished.” That interpretation would also contradict Jesus, who said:

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17, NKJV)

And Jesus immediately warned against breaking even the least of God's commandments (Matthew 5:19).

So the essential point of Ephesians 2:15 is this: Christ abolished the ordinances that stood as a barrier and caused hostility between Jews and Gentiles, making the two one in Him. Paul is describing the removal of the separation between these two groups, not simply declaring God's commandments abolished.
Now to answer your question:
The “new man” in Ephesians 2:15 is the one new people created in Christ from Jews and Gentiles. Its destiny is to be reconciled to God, become part of His household, and grow into a holy temple in the Lord.

Paul continues:

“Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.” (Ephesians 2:19, NKJV) And "In whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.” (Ephesians 2:21, NKJV)

So the “new man” is not a replacement for God's people or a people freed from God's commandments. It is Jews and Gentiles brought together in Christ, reconciled to God, and becoming His holy people.

I hope you see it this way too in the context of what Paul wrote but I think you do.
 
Being born again, having a new nature, being a new creation all surely refer to the same thing, the tremendous change wrought by God in a sinner's life when He saves him. Surely such a change is necessary regardless of whether that sinner can trace his ancestry back to Abraham or not. Paul wrote:

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The idea that Jesus preached a gospel that applied only to Jews seems strange to me. Anyway, He did also speak to Gentiles.
 
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Mem said:
What is the destiny of the "new man" of Eph 2:15?
Click to expand...

Good question. Let's look at the context:

Ephesians 2:14-18
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Please read the above, and really take in the bold wording.

The destiny is stated in descriptive terms in the context. First and foremost, two groupings, Jews and Gentiles, who once were at enmity with one another with salvation being ONLY of the Jews as His nation of priests, with us Jews not allowed to enter in with Gentiles nor to even eat with Gentiles until they crossed over into becoming Jews for salvation, that barrier is no longer standing between us, thus BOTH groups now being made into one man IN Christ Jesus. This resulted not only with the Cross, although that was and is the most important power and only force for all our salvation, but also with the Lord Having cut down the olive tree that produced no fruit...a.k.a. the fall of Israel.

So, that destiny is a unification way of life in the world, which is contrary to how my brothers and sisters who dwell in Jerusalem and around the world, still practicing orthodox Judaism while rejecting the past coming of Messiah, they are the exception to this rather than embracing it as do we who are labeled as "Messianic Jews." Personally, I have moved beyond the mere Messianic Judaism stripe into biblicism without the adherence to the Mosaic Law. So, the answer to your question is verse 18.

MM
 
DavidLamb said:
The idea that Jesus preached a gospel that applied only to Jews seems strange to me. Anyway, He did also speak to Gentiles.
Click to expand...
The idea that the nation of Israel only had one chance to receive the offered kingdom seems inconsistent with all the prophecies that the kingdom would be established in Israel.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

That this was a first offer might be seen with this article in the blog archive at christianpioneer.com

Christian Pioneer - Plan “F”?

Christian Pioneer - Plan “F”?
christianpioneer.com
That this would mean two overlapping but different gospels might be seen here;

Christian Pioneer - Two Gospels?

Christian Pioneer - Two Gospels?
christianpioneer.com

Today both Jew and gentile can be saved by grace without the law. After the rapture when the body of Christ is taken out of the world, Israel will once again have the opportunity to bring the knowledge of God to the world and be the nation of priests that had been attended.
 
wattie said:
Weeeell the part that is not so biblical is saying conversion enters a believer into the body of Christ.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your comments. For the sake of clarification, please define what you mean by "conversion." I didn't use that term, but here it is in your post.

wattie said:
The body of Christ in 1st Corinthians 12 is the assembly of baptized believers at Corinth.
Click to expand...

By spiritual baptism, yes, as is stated in verse 13, not water baptism as some out there seem to always assume.

wattie said:
Paul calls the Corinthians 'you are the body of Christ and members in particular'

There is a lot more references also to a purely local body of Christ. For example, the Mathew 18 process of church discipline and Paul persecuting 'the church of God' in Acts...that was most surely the church at Jerusalem.
Click to expand...

I think I'm following you thus far...

wattie said:
So I would argue that at conversion, a believer enters the Family of God and Kingdom, not the body of Christ until they join a local biblical NT church.
Click to expand...

Kingdom? That reality is yet to come. It isn't here yet. We of the body of Christ will not populate that Kingdom once it's established at the activation of the New Covenant in the Millennial Kingdom after the tribulation. As Jew in the body of Christ, I too will not be a part of the Kingdom once it's established given that none of us will be on this earth any longer.

wattie said:
The horse, the cat, the car... singular standing for plural. Same with 'the church'

Blessings 🙌
Click to expand...

I agree that the Body of Christ is a singular, unified body. Locality matter not at all. There are those out there who glamorize the institutional model as THE expression of the local body of believers, but that's not necessarily true given that many unbelievers also enter into those places and warm the pews and chairs with their presence. None that offend will enter the Kingdom when the Millennial Kingdom arrives on this earth at the inception of the New Covenant.

So, yes, singular grammar gives to us an understanding of the unity that exists, but ONLY through Christ Jesus alone.

Amen

MM
 
tablet123 said:
Jesus came to preach the Christian way.

It is the same for Jew and Gentile.

Jesus said a person must be born again or they will not be able to enter heaven.
Click to expand...

Yes, that was His message to Israel.

tablet123 said:
So it applies to both Jew and Gentile.
Click to expand...

It does now, yes, but not before the fall of Israel.

tablet123 said:
The kingdom will be restored to Israel.
Click to expand...

Yes, and that will happen at the inception of the New Covenant after the tribulation.

tablet123 said:
Everything else is the same for the Jew and Gentile.
Click to expand...

After the the middle wall of partition was brought down, yes.

tablet123 said:
But all Israel has to do is repent and claim Jesus as Messiah the same as the Gentile.
Click to expand...

No. Wrong. We as the body of Christ today don't look to Him as Messiah. That was a purely Jewish association, not inclusive of Gentiles:

“Messiah” (Hebrew māšîaḥ, “anointed one”) is originally a Jewish title/role, not just a synonym for “savior.”

1)​

In Jewish thought, a mashiach is the coming anointed leader—most commonly understood as the future king of the Davidic line (and the era of restoration he brings). Depending on the tradition, the Messiah is also associated with broader redemption and restoration for Israel (peace, justice, rebuilding, gathering, etc.). So “messiah” can be about a person and about an age of renewal.

2)​

“Savior” is a broader religious word. It can mean:

  • someone who rescues from danger/sin, or
  • a deliverer in a more immediate, personal sense.
That’s why it’s possible for someone to say “Gentiles don’t seek a messiah, but a savior”: they’re grouping people by what they emphasize—Jewish expectation of a Messiah as a defined anointed destiny, vs. Gentile interest in salvation/deliverance.

But in much of Christianity, “Messiah” is actually reframed as “Savior” (because they identify Jesus with the Messiah/Christ). So the Gentile “savior” language isn’t usually meant as “a different category with zero overlap”; it’s often a translation of the same hope into salvation terms.

3)​

The Bible uses these terms differently depending on context and tradition:

  • Jewish expectation tends to use Messiah language for the promised anointed one and the redemption/restoration associated with Israel.
  • Christian teaching often uses “Christ” (Greek Christos = “anointed”) and then explains that as the one who saves.
So if you mean “now, practically, in contemporary Judaism,” then yes: many Gentiles typically speak of a savior rather than using the Jewish term Messiah, but that’s mostly a difference in vocabulary and emphasis, not necessarily a difference in what the hope is reaching toward.

Quick​

  • Messiah = “anointed one,” traditionally a specific redemptive figure/role tied to Israel’s restoration (especially in Jewish tradition).
  • Savior = “deliverer,” a broader salvation/rescue concept that doesn’t require the specific anointed-one role.

tablet123 said:
Which Jesus said the Hebrews will not see Him again until they acknowledge Him as their Messiah.
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Not any longer. We of Israel no longer look to Him as Messiah, but that will once again become re-established in the tribulation period and become the reality beyond once the Kingdom is established.

NOTE:
Those who disagree with the eschatological pinnings in this response, they will have to argue that topic elsewhere since I will not engage that here.

MM
 
2Christ said:
Hello Mem ill start with explaining the context of the verse you quoted then answer your question;

“And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.” (Ephesians 2:17, NKJV)

To understand Ephesians 2:15, we must read it in its full context. Paul is speaking about Jews and Gentiles. The Gentiles, who were once “afar off,” have been brought near through Christ. Christ has made the two groups one, breaking down the “middle wall of separation” and removing the hostility between them (Ephesians 2:13–14).

Paul then says that Christ abolished “the law of commandments contained in ordinances” in His flesh (Ephesians 2:15). But notice what Paul says this accomplished: “to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace.” Then he says that Christ reconciled both to God in one body through the cross (Ephesians 2:16).

Therefore, the context is not simply, “Christ abolished God's commandments.” Paul is explaining how the separation and hostility between Jews and Gentiles were removed so that both could become one people in Christ.

The Greek expression translated “commandments contained in ordinances” refers to commandments or regulations expressed as ordinances or decrees. Paul does not say, “the Ten Commandments were abolished.” That interpretation would also contradict Jesus, who said:

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17, NKJV)

And Jesus immediately warned against breaking even the least of God's commandments (Matthew 5:19).

So the essential point of Ephesians 2:15 is this: Christ abolished the ordinances that stood as a barrier and caused hostility between Jews and Gentiles, making the two one in Him. Paul is describing the removal of the separation between these two groups, not simply declaring God's commandments abolished.
Now to answer your question:
The “new man” in Ephesians 2:15 is the one new people created in Christ from Jews and Gentiles. Its destiny is to be reconciled to God, become part of His household, and grow into a holy temple in the Lord.

Paul continues:

“Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.” (Ephesians 2:19, NKJV) And "In whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.” (Ephesians 2:21, NKJV)

So the “new man” is not a replacement for God's people or a people freed from God's commandments. It is Jews and Gentiles brought together in Christ, reconciled to God, and becoming His holy people.

I hope you see it this way too in the context of what Paul wrote but I think you do.
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Thank you @2Christ. I see Paul's summarization in 2 Cor 1:20, "For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God."
 
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Musicmaster said:
Good question. Let's look at the context:

Ephesians 2:14-18
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Please read the above, and really take in the bold wording.

The destiny is stated in descriptive terms in the context. First and foremost, two groupings, Jews and Gentiles, who once were at enmity with one another with salvation being ONLY of the Jews as His nation of priests, with us Jews not allowed to enter in with Gentiles nor to even eat with Gentiles until they crossed over into becoming Jews for salvation, that barrier is no longer standing between us, thus BOTH groups now being made into one man IN Christ Jesus. This resulted not only with the Cross, although that was and is the most important power and only force for all our salvation, but also with the Lord Having cut down the olive tree that produced no fruit...a.k.a. the fall of Israel.

So, that destiny is a unification way of life in the world, which is contrary to how my brothers and sisters who dwell in Jerusalem and around the world, still practicing orthodox Judaism while rejecting the past coming of Messiah, they are the exception to this rather than embracing it as do we who are labeled as "Messianic Jews." Personally, I have moved beyond the mere Messianic Judaism stripe into biblicism without the adherence to the Mosaic Law. So, the answer to your question is verse 18.

MM
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Thank you, MM. I inquired with regard of your assertion of Israel's destiny in the earthly kingdom of God and the Church's destiny "in heavenly places," which seem to me as being 'separate' destinies.
 
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DavidLamb said:
Being born again, having a new nature, being a new creation all surely refer to the same thing, the tremendous change wrought by God in a sinner's life when He saves him. Surely such a change is necessary regardless of whether that sinner can trace his ancestry back to Abraham or not. Paul wrote:

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

The idea that Jesus preached a gospel that applied only to Jews seems strange to me. Anyway, He did also speak to Gentiles.
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Yes, He spoke to Gentiles alright:

Mark 7:27
But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

If the gospel preached to Israel alone seems a strange thought to you, then perhaps this will help you to align with what scripture actually says as opposed to Westernized, confused and convoluted theology that rests fully in the lap of replacement theology:

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Does that help?

Generally speaking, the wickedness of replacement theology has many Gentiles out there confused and disillusioned about the realities many fail to latch into when refusing to read and accept scripture for what it actually says.

MM
 
Mem said:
Thank you, MM. I inquired with regard of your assertion of Israel's destiny in the earthly kingdom of God and the Church's destiny "in heavenly places," which seem to me as being 'separate' destinies.
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Yes, they are separate destinies in relation to our everlasting lives with Him. The body of Christ has a specific destiny, which is inclusive of believing Gentiles and believing Jews together and without distinction during this time and in Heaven given that the middle wall of partition is no more for us today, and we will be the reconciliation of the Heavens.

However, those who populate the coming Kingdom after the tribulation and the New Earth after that is not our destiny as the body of Christ. There are some out there who reject that because of their contrived theologies and wishful thinking contrary to what scripture actually says, a discussion of depths that I will not get into in this thread since I'm sure there are some out there who disagree.

MM
 
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Musicmaster said:
Thanks for your comments. For the sake of clarification, please define what you mean by "conversion." I didn't use that term, but here it is in your post.



By spiritual baptism, yes, as is stated in verse 13, not water baptism as some out there seem to always assume.



I think I'm following you thus far...



Kingdom? That reality is yet to come. It isn't here yet. We of the body of Christ will not populate that Kingdom once it's established at the activation of the New Covenant in the Millennial Kingdom after the tribulation. As Jew in the body of Christ, I too will not be a part of the Kingdom once it's established given that none of us will be on this earth any longer.



I agree that the Body of Christ is a singular, unified body. Locality matter not at all. There are those out there who glamorize the institutional model as THE expression of the local body of believers, but that's not necessarily true given that many unbelievers also enter into those places and warm the pews and chairs with their presence. None that offend will enter the Kingdom when the Millennial Kingdom arrives on this earth at the inception of the New Covenant.

So, yes, singular grammar gives to us an understanding of the unity that exists, but ONLY through Christ Jesus alone.

Amen

MM
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I'm saying the body of Christ isn't all redeemed, but a biblical, NT, local Christian assembly.

When born again, a believer has entered the Family and Kingdom, but not a local assembly (body of Christ).

Conversion is born again..meaning they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as per John 3:16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:40 etc..
 
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wattie said:
I'm saying the body of Christ isn't all redeemed, but a biblical, NT, local Christian assembly.

When born again, a believer has entered the Family and Kingdom, but not a local assembly (body of Christ).

Conversion is born again..meaning they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as per John 3:16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:40 etc..
Click to expand...
Oh, you mean like how Paul was converted on the road to Damascus?
 
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