Free will, what does it mean?

Gideon300 · Aug 23, 2026

The problem with some discussions is that people don't share the same understanding of terminology. One of the more vexed subjects is "free will". I'll no doubt upset some people (again), but this is my take:

God gave man the ability and the right to choose. This is the area of the soul we call the will or volition. Even there confusion is possible. The will can either be what we exercise to make decisions or what the desires and purposes are. So when we pray, "Your will be done", we are not asking God to choose. We are asking for Him to intervene with His desire for mankind.

So I will use the term "will" in the sense of the ability to choose.

Man's will is sovereign. God will not violate our will. It is important to know this. Those who think that God chooses for them are liable to be deceived, or become passive. They wait for God to choose while God is waiting for them to choose. God's will is clearly laid out in scripture. God will not force us to obey. It may well be that we will wish that we had obeyed. Disobedience has consequences.

I will not go into all the evidence that God requires us to choose. It's clear from God's Word.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live......." Deuteronomy 30:19

God takes note of every decision that man makes. Everyone is judged accordingly. So our choices, the exercise of our will, determines our future. It is also vital to know that not choosing is also a decision of the will. That sounds confusing, so I will give an example. The parable of the talents describes three servants who were given a responsibility to use their God given talents. (Matthew 25:14-28). The talents were given according to their ability, not an excessive demand on them. One of the servants did nothing with the talent, and earned a terrible rebuke as a result. I know someone who fits this scenario very well. His life is a disaster.

Now to the "free" part. Decades ago, I was told that "free" meant within the confines of the individual's character and personality. I'm inclined to agree with that. No one is free to choose whatever they please. That's fantasy, not reality. I wanted to be a fighter pilot when I was a child. I watched jets flying off to combat missions and saw them close up. However, my lack of maths skills, deficient eyesight and other deficiencies put a stop to those ideas.

I will now upset a few. God is obviously free to do as He pleases, correct? Yet, with great respect, He is also bound by His own principles and nature. For example, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

So man indeed has free will. But free does not mean totally unrestricted to do whatever he wants without consequence. We are not robots. God respects our choices even when it leads us away from Him.

The incredible wisdom and love of God enables Him to lead us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing about definitions that are without context.

Watchman22 · Aug 23, 2026

Gideon300 said:
The problem with some discussions is that people don't share the same understanding of terminology. One of the more vexed subjects is "free will". I'll no doubt upset some people (again), but this is my take:

God gave man the ability and the right to choose. This is the area of the soul we call the will or volition. Even there confusion is possible. The will can either be what we exercise to make decisions or what the desires and purposes are. So when we pray, "Your will be done", we are not asking God to choose. We are asking for Him to intervene with His desire for mankind.

So I will use the term "will" in the sense of the ability to choose.

Man's will is sovereign. God will not violate our will. It is important to know this. Those who think that God chooses for them are liable to be deceived, or become passive. They wait for God to choose while God is waiting for them to choose. God's will is clearly laid out in scripture. God will not force us to obey. It may well be that we will wish that we had obeyed. Disobedience has consequences.

I will not go into all the evidence that God requires us to choose. It's clear from God's Word.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live......." Deuteronomy 30:19

God takes note of every decision that man makes. Everyone is judged accordingly. So our choices, the exercise of our will, determines our future. It is also vital to know that not choosing is also a decision of the will. That sounds confusing, so I will give an example. The parable of the talents describes three servants who were given a responsibility to use their God given talents. (Matthew 25:14-28). The talents were given according to their ability, not an excessive demand on them. One of the servants did nothing with the talent, and earned a terrible rebuke as a result. I know someone who fits this scenario very well. His life is a disaster.

Now to the "free" part. Decades ago, I was told that "free" meant within the confines of the individual's character and personality. I'm inclined to agree with that. No one is free to choose whatever they please. That's fantasy, not reality. I wanted to be a fighter pilot when I was a child. I watched jets flying off to combat missions and saw them close up. However, my lack of maths skills, deficient eyesight and other deficiencies put a stop to those ideas.

I will now upset a few. God is obviously free to do as He pleases, correct? Yet, with great respect, He is also bound by His own principles and nature. For example, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

So man indeed has free will. But free does not mean totally unrestricted to do whatever he wants without consequence. We are not robots. God respects our choices even when it leads us away from Him.

The incredible wisdom and love of God enables Him to lead us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing about definitions that are without context.

Good post Gideon.
Well said.

Cameron143 · Aug 23, 2026

Gideon300 said:
The problem with some discussions is that people don't share the same understanding of terminology. One of the more vexed subjects is "free will". I'll no doubt upset some people (again), but this is my take:

God gave man the ability and the right to choose. This is the area of the soul we call the will or volition. Even there confusion is possible. The will can either be what we exercise to make decisions or what the desires and purposes are. So when we pray, "Your will be done", we are not asking God to choose. We are asking for Him to intervene with His desire for mankind.

So I will use the term "will" in the sense of the ability to choose.

Man's will is sovereign. God will not violate our will. It is important to know this. Those who think that God chooses for them are liable to be deceived, or become passive. They wait for God to choose while God is waiting for them to choose. God's will is clearly laid out in scripture. God will not force us to obey. It may well be that we will wish that we had obeyed. Disobedience has consequences.

I will not go into all the evidence that God requires us to choose. It's clear from God's Word.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live......." Deuteronomy 30:19

God takes note of every decision that man makes. Everyone is judged accordingly. So our choices, the exercise of our will, determines our future. It is also vital to know that not choosing is also a decision of the will. That sounds confusing, so I will give an example. The parable of the talents describes three servants who were given a responsibility to use their God given talents. (Matthew 25:14-28). The talents were given according to their ability, not an excessive demand on them. One of the servants did nothing with the talent, and earned a terrible rebuke as a result. I know someone who fits this scenario very well. His life is a disaster.

Now to the "free" part. Decades ago, I was told that "free" meant within the confines of the individual's character and personality. I'm inclined to agree with that. No one is free to choose whatever they please. That's fantasy, not reality. I wanted to be a fighter pilot when I was a child. I watched jets flying off to combat missions and saw them close up. However, my lack of maths skills, deficient eyesight and other deficiencies put a stop to those ideas.

I will now upset a few. God is obviously free to do as He pleases, correct? Yet, with great respect, He is also bound by His own principles and nature. For example, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

So man indeed has free will. But free does not mean totally unrestricted to do whatever he wants without consequence. We are not robots. God respects our choices even when it leads us away from Him.

The incredible wisdom and love of God enables Him to lead us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing about definitions that are without context.

What are your thoughts on Proverbs 3:5-6?

GWH · Aug 24, 2026

Gideon300 said:
The problem with some discussions is that people don't share the same understanding of terminology. One of the more vexed subjects is "free will". I'll no doubt upset some people (again), but this is my take:

God gave man the ability and the right to choose. This is the area of the soul we call the will or volition. Even there confusion is possible. The will can either be what we exercise to make decisions or what the desires and purposes are. So when we pray, "Your will be done", we are not asking God to choose. We are asking for Him to intervene with His desire for mankind.

So I will use the term "will" in the sense of the ability to choose.

Man's will is sovereign. God will not violate our will. It is important to know this. Those who think that God chooses for them are liable to be deceived, or become passive. They wait for God to choose while God is waiting for them to choose. God's will is clearly laid out in scripture. God will not force us to obey. It may well be that we will wish that we had obeyed. Disobedience has consequences.

I will not go into all the evidence that God requires us to choose. It's clear from God's Word.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live......." Deuteronomy 30:19

God takes note of every decision that man makes. Everyone is judged accordingly. So our choices, the exercise of our will, determines our future. It is also vital to know that not choosing is also a decision of the will. That sounds confusing, so I will give an example. The parable of the talents describes three servants who were given a responsibility to use their God given talents. (Matthew 25:14-28). The talents were given according to their ability, not an excessive demand on them. One of the servants did nothing with the talent, and earned a terrible rebuke as a result. I know someone who fits this scenario very well. His life is a disaster.

Now to the "free" part. Decades ago, I was told that "free" meant within the confines of the individual's character and personality. I'm inclined to agree with that. No one is free to choose whatever they please. That's fantasy, not reality. I wanted to be a fighter pilot when I was a child. I watched jets flying off to combat missions and saw them close up. However, my lack of maths skills, deficient eyesight and other deficiencies put a stop to those ideas.

I will now upset a few. God is obviously free to do as He pleases, correct? Yet, with great respect, He is also bound by His own principles and nature. For example, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

So man indeed has free will. But free does not mean totally unrestricted to do whatever he wants without consequence. We are not robots. God respects our choices even when it leads us away from Him.

The incredible wisdom and love of God enables Him to lead us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing about definitions that are without context.

Re "God gave man the ability and the right to choose." (Deut. 30:19)

Re "Man's will is sovereign. God will not violate our will." (Matt. 23:37)

Re "God's will is clearly laid out in scripture." (Matt. 22:37-40, Gal. 5:6)

Re "Disobedience has consequences." (Rom. 2:5-16)

Re "The parable of the talents describes three servants who were given a responsibility to use their God given talents. (Matt. 25:14-28)." And three levels of revelation: Rom. 1:20, 1Pet. 1:10-12, Acts 17:30-31.

Re "No one is free to choose whatever they please. That's fantasy, not reality." (Josh. 24:15)

Re "God cannot lie (Titus 1:2)." God will never choose to lie. (Mal. 3:6)

Re "We are not robots. God respects our choices even when it leads us away from Him." (Rom. 2:4-5)

Re "The incredible wisdom and love of God enables Him to lead us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing...". (Tit. 3:9-10)

timf · Aug 24, 2026

Here is an interesting article from the blog archive at christianpioneer.com

Robots in Revolt

A favorite science fiction theme is robots. This imagery can be useful for a mental simulation exercise that can illustrate man’s relation to God. If we think of God as an inventor and humans as robots, the first choice God would face was whether or not his robots would be programmed to follow his instructions or have the option to make their own choices.

A human inventor would be unlikely to allow his robots to act on their own as he would recognize the possibility and even likelihood that his invention could kill him. While humans cannot kill God, our running amok would serve no divine purpose. A key element in the design choice to give free will to the robots would be to devise a way for what is created to use their free will to recognize that it is in their best interest to align their choices with that of their creator.

Since the robots could not be programmed to know what is best, they would have to discover it for themselves. Since living for self is both destructive to others as well as oneself, and living for others is the discovery of love, one would think that an observant robot would quickly align himself with the desires of his creator and be able to escape the misery of making bad choices.

Many of the robots experiencing the pain of suffering would question if there was an inventor, why he would allow them to suffer. They fail to recognize that they were not created to experience comfort and ease, but to choose between selfishness and selflessness. The heart of the inventor would be grieved by the pain his robots experienced from the suffering they inflicted on themselves and others.

The inventor could choose some robots to communicate with so that they could tell others what was expected of them. He might pick one robot from whom generations of robots would accumulate his words. He might give them a list of rules and ask them to follow them. He might even communicate with some over time telling them what would happen in the future. He might even send his son to live among them to show them the way out of the suffering they persist in inflicting on themselves.

Those robots that managed to hear about the inventor and learn from his words what was expected would be able to see the world in truth. Truth can shatter the delusions of pride. Truth can bring shame for the harm caused to others. Truth can open eyes to reality. Truth can grow and become the way a robot can be connected to his inventor.

At a future point when all the robots have been deactivated, the inventor can identify those who trusted in the truth and reactivate them because they have learned to use their free will to choose the will of the inventor. There would be no need to reactivate those robots who could not give up seeking after self.

While stories about robots can be entertaining, they can also be used as an illustration to help us understand the purpose and goal of our existence. They can also help us understand why we have to endure for now the consequence of those “robots” who rebel against their creator.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4

Gideon300 · Aug 24, 2026

Cameron143 said:
What are your thoughts on Proverbs 3:5-6?

Yes, can't argue with that. The Bible is a spiritual book and can only be understood spiritually. Logic and reason do have a part to play. For example, we can be reasonably that rivers do not clap their hands. However, the mind is the servant, not the master of our spirit man.

The NIV translates 2 Corinthians 6:6 as "understanding". It's not correct. It is better translated knowledge as most other versions put it. That is why we need the Spirit of wisdom and revelation (Ephesians 1:17).

Gideon300 · Aug 24, 2026

Watchman22 said:
Good post Gideon.
Well said.

Thank you.

GWH · Sep 1, 2026

GWH said:
Re "God gave man the ability and the right to choose." (Deut. 30:19)

Re "Man's will is sovereign. God will not violate our will." (Matt. 23:37)

Re "God's will is clearly laid out in scripture." (Matt. 22:37-40, Gal. 5:6)

Re "Disobedience has consequences." (Rom. 2:5-16)

Re "The parable of the talents describes three servants who were given a responsibility to use their God given talents. (Matt. 25:14-28)." And three levels of revelation: Rom. 1:20, 1Pet. 1:10-12, Acts 17:30-31.

Re "No one is free to choose whatever they please. That's fantasy, not reality." (Josh. 24:15)

Re "God cannot lie (Titus 1:2)." God will never choose to lie. (Mal. 3:6)

Re "We are not robots. God respects our choices even when it leads us away from Him." (Rom. 2:4-5)

Re "The incredible wisdom and love of God enables Him to lead us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing...". (Tit. 3:9-10)

God gave man the ability and thus the responsibility to choose whether to cooperate with Him or not. (Deut. 30:19)

God's sovereign will is for sinners to repent, seek salvation, learn truth, and accept Him/Messiah as Lord. (Matt. 23:37)

God's will is clearly laid out in His Word/inspired Scripture, which is to reflect His love to everyone. (Matt. 22:37-40, Gal. 5:6)

Choosing not to cooperate with God's Word/Will/Love/Righteousness has painful consequences." (Rom. 2:5-16)

The Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-28) can indicate cooperating or not regarding three types of revelation
(Rom. 1:20, 1Pet. 1:10-12, Acts 17:30-31).

The moral choice is binary: choose to cooperate with God or not. (Josh. 24:15)

God will never choose to lie or do/be evil. (Titus 1:2, Mal. 3:6)

Humans are not robots, so God allows our choices even when they lead us away from Him. (Rom. 2:4-5)

The love of God leads/calls us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing. (Tit. 3:9-10)

Roger316 · Sep 1, 2026

GWH said:
God gave man the ability and thus the responsibility to choose whether to cooperate with Him or not. (Deut. 30:19)

God's sovereign will is for sinners to repent, seek salvation, learn truth, and accept Him/Messiah as Lord. (Matt. 23:37)

God's will is clearly laid out in His Word/inspired Scripture, which is to reflect His love to everyone. (Matt. 22:37-40, Gal. 5:6)

Choosing not to cooperate with God's Word/Will/Love/Righteousness has painful consequences." (Rom. 2:5-16)

The Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-28) can indicate cooperating or not regarding three types of revelation
(Rom. 1:20, 1Pet. 1:10-12, Acts 17:30-31).

The moral choice is binary: choose to cooperate with God or not. (Josh. 24:15)

God will never choose to lie or do/be evil. (Titus 1:2, Mal. 3:6)

Humans are not robots, so God allows our choices even when they lead us away from Him. (Rom. 2:4-5)

The love of God leads/calls us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing. (Tit. 3:9-10)

Assuming that we have the ability to choose whether to sin or not sin, why do we continue to sin and why can't we stop? This is where the rubber meets the road.

GWH · Sep 1, 2026

Roger316 said:
Assuming that we have the ability to choose whether to sin or not sin, why do we continue to sin and why can't we stop? This is where the rubber meets the road.

No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who affirms Jesus as Messiah but rejects His Lordship.
e. an apostate or heretic (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20).
f. An atheist, who may imitate divine love without glorifying the One whose power makes it a golden rule rather than merely a pyrite suggestion.

Any rubber I omitted?

Karlon · Sep 1, 2026

Gideon300 said:
The problem with some discussions is that people don't share the same understanding of terminology. One of the more vexed subjects is "free will". I'll no doubt upset some people (again), but this is my take:

God gave man the ability and the right to choose. This is the area of the soul we call the will or volition. Even there confusion is possible. The will can either be what we exercise to make decisions or what the desires and purposes are. So when we pray, "Your will be done", we are not asking God to choose. We are asking for Him to intervene with His desire for mankind.

So I will use the term "will" in the sense of the ability to choose.

Man's will is sovereign. God will not violate our will. It is important to know this. Those who think that God chooses for them are liable to be deceived, or become passive. They wait for God to choose while God is waiting for them to choose. God's will is clearly laid out in scripture. God will not force us to obey. It may well be that we will wish that we had obeyed. Disobedience has consequences.

I will not go into all the evidence that God requires us to choose. It's clear from God's Word.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live......." Deuteronomy 30:19

God takes note of every decision that man makes. Everyone is judged accordingly. So our choices, the exercise of our will, determines our future. It is also vital to know that not choosing is also a decision of the will. That sounds confusing, so I will give an example. The parable of the talents describes three servants who were given a responsibility to use their God given talents. (Matthew 25:14-28). The talents were given according to their ability, not an excessive demand on them. One of the servants did nothing with the talent, and earned a terrible rebuke as a result. I know someone who fits this scenario very well. His life is a disaster.

Now to the "free" part. Decades ago, I was told that "free" meant within the confines of the individual's character and personality. I'm inclined to agree with that. No one is free to choose whatever they please. That's fantasy, not reality. I wanted to be a fighter pilot when I was a child. I watched jets flying off to combat missions and saw them close up. However, my lack of maths skills, deficient eyesight and other deficiencies put a stop to those ideas.

I will now upset a few. God is obviously free to do as He pleases, correct? Yet, with great respect, He is also bound by His own principles and nature. For example, God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

So man indeed has free will. But free does not mean totally unrestricted to do whatever he wants without consequence. We are not robots. God respects our choices even when it leads us away from Him.

The incredible wisdom and love of God enables Him to lead us to Jesus without violating our free will. We should be rejoicing in that instead of arguing about definitions that are without context.

1st, free will is a gift from God. you can not live without free will or free choice. free will is you alone making a decision to do something without any influence of any kind. making a wrong choice leads to consequences. right choices support a very joyous life, especially as a Christian.

Roger316 · Sep 1, 2026

GWH said:
No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who affirms Jesus as Messiah but rejects His Lordship.
e. an apostate or heretic (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20).
f. An atheist, who may imitate divine love without glorifying the One whose power makes it a golden rule rather than merely a pyrite suggestion.

Any rubber I omitted?

Yes. If sin was our choice, why do we always sin? What we are by nature is sinners to the depth of our being. We can choose to serve righteousness but we can't choose to never sin.

Karlon · Sep 1, 2026

Roger316 said:
Yes. If sin was our choice, why do we always sin? What we are by nature is sinners to the depth of our being. We can choose to serve righteousness but we can't choose to never sin.

always sin? i do not always sin, sometimes i sin. the rest, i assent to.

Blade · Sep 1, 2026

For me this like a book. I can read the title and whats written on the back but never read the book. At the start of this life seems I had free choice to do anything I wanted. Then He finds you and over time He allows you to see to understand more. And you begin to think..ooh ok I can understand yet He then shows you more and you find you don't understand anything yet.

I find its purely, 100% His will not mine. I find there is darkness and light and nothing in-between. That fence (middle ground) is not real that's something man/enemy made up. We still don't see the full effect of what happened in the garden. What sin has done and still does. Its like there is darkness all around us its so thick you could cut it and all you have this is light guiding your path. Free will? To leave the path into the darkness where it has fully authority. With out Christ..haha the song playing "to live is Christ" with out Him its just darkness.

We see the choice in the Garden but Satan already fell before that (I believe) so we see the tree told not to touch. To read choose this day whom you will serve. See free choice? You pick GOD or you pick Satan.. there is no other choice. This life is just a vaper... this is a mist. Take our human eye we can't see Xray or Ultraviolet, Infrared, Radio Waves blah blah blah. Amp that when it come to GOD the great I am that has always been. We can't even grasp " "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."

We think we man can understand free will?

carry on

GWH · Sep 1, 2026

Roger316 said:
Yes. If sin was our choice, why do we always sin? What we are by nature is sinners to the depth of our being. We can choose to serve righteousness but we can't choose to never sin.

You err by ignoring God pronouncing the human natures He created to be very good in Gen 1:31.
Jesus had a perfect human nature (Heb. 2:10-15, 4:15, 5:7-9).
Our nature is becoming perfected as we become more spiritually like Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).
Of course we can choose not to sin; learning not to sin is the purpose of life post-conversion.
In heaven we humans will never choose to sin because of lessons learned/taught by the HS on earth.

Gideon300 · Sep 1, 2026

A choice made without any external influence? That is rare indeed. Both God and Satan are after the same thing, and that is the cooperation of man's will.

Gideon300 · Sep 1, 2026

GWH said:
You err by ignoring God pronouncing the human natures He created to be very good in Gen 1:31.
Jesus had a perfect human nature (Heb. 2:10-15, 4:15, 5:7-9).
Our nature is becoming perfected as we become more spiritually like Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).
Of course we can choose not to sin; learning not to sin is the purpose of life post-conversion.
In heaven we humans will never choose to sin because of lessons learned/taught by the HS on earth.

Sin is the principle of the flesh. Our spirit is born again and does not sin. Once we receive our new bodies, the sin nature will no longer be part of us and we will no longer be tempted by the flesh. Satan, who is the external tempter, will be in the lake of fire and no longer active. All evil will be removed for eternity.

God does not change our nature progressively. We learn in this life to deny the natural life that we received from Adam and instead walk in the spirit. That is what it means to carry our cross daily. The more of self that we lose, the more that Lord Jesus is able to live through as we choose His ways. Jesus is the Life of all who are born again. We get to choose whether to allow Jesus to live instead of self, or to indulge self. The former is a life that is fruitful while the latter leads to failure and defeat.

GWH · Sep 2, 2026

Gideon300 said:
Sin is the principle of the flesh. Our spirit is born again and does not sin. Once we receive our new bodies, the sin nature will no longer be part of us and we will no longer be tempted by the flesh. Satan, who is the external tempter, will be in the lake of fire and no longer active. All evil will be removed for eternity.

God does not change our nature progressively. We learn in this life to deny the natural life that we received from Adam and instead walk in the spirit. That is what it means to carry our cross daily. The more of self that we lose, the more that Lord Jesus is able to live through as we choose His ways. Jesus is the Life of all who are born again. We get to choose whether to allow Jesus to live instead of self, or to indulge self. The former is a life that is fruitful while the latter leads to failure and defeat.

You need to cite Scripture to support your opinions so we can see where you are coming from.
Otherwise, saying things like "sin is the principle of the flesh" forces us to figure out what that might mean.
I guess it means that sin is due to one of the following reasons:

a. a normally loving person acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16)
b. an immature Believer is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9)
d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19) affirms Jesus as Messiah but rejects His Lordship
e. an apostate or heretic (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6) once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20)
f. An atheist imitates divine love without glorifying the One whose power makes it a golden rule rather than merely a pyrite suggestion.

God does indeed change repentant souls' selfish/sinful nature progressively, which is called the process of sanctification and is what Paul prayed for in Eph. 3:16-19. You even alluded to this truth by saying "we learn in this life... the more of self that we lose..."!

Roger316 · Sep 2, 2026

GWH said:
You err by ignoring God pronouncing the human natures He created to be very good in Gen 1:31.

Yes, Brother. I like what you are saying. Just to remind us that in the Genesis passage, "good" means "fitting for the story I want to tell. God isn't saying that a tree or a flower is morally good. He isn't saying that mankind is morally good. In fact, Adam proved that he wasn't morally good when he ate the apple. God is going to create a world and it's history to narrate the glory of his grace. The opening scenes of Genesis sets the stage and it was all good.

GWH said:
Jesus had a perfect human nature (Heb. 2:10-15, 4:15, 5:7-9).

Yes, he is the only one, so far, who is perfectly moral. He is always right, always good and always truthful. But bear in mind that he is the first of a new humanity. Adam represents the old humanity, and Jesus represents the new humanity. Those who follow Jesus will be granted a new character and be like Jesus (1 John 3:2) and on that day, his followers will never sin again.

GWH said:
Our nature is becoming perfected as we become more spiritually like Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).

Yes, I agree. The saints, those whom God chose, he has given them his Spirit as a seal and a down payment on their inheritance. And the Holy Spirit is opening their eyes to sin, and righteousness, and judgment. As Paul says in Romans, we now have the wish and strive to give our bodies to serve righteousness. Sometimes we fail. But the trajectory of our life is toward goodness, righteousness and truth. But we mourn for the day when we will be changed.

GWH said:
Of course we can choose not to sin; learning not to sin is the purpose of life post-conversion.
In heaven we humans will never choose to sin because of lessons learned/taught by the HS on earth.

I totally agree and well said in my opinion.

GWH · Sep 2, 2026

Roger316 said:
Yes, Brother. I like what you are saying. Just to remind us that in the Genesis passage, "good" means "fitting for the story I want to tell. God isn't saying that a tree or a flower is morally good. He isn't saying that mankind is morally good. In fact, Adam proved that he wasn't morally good when he ate the apple. God is going to create a world and it's history to narrate the glory of his grace. The opening scenes of Genesis sets the stage and it was all good.

Yes, he is the only one, so far, who is perfectly moral. He is always right, always good and always truthful. But bear in mind that he is the first of a new humanity. Adam represents the old humanity, and Jesus represents the new humanity. Those who follow Jesus will be granted a new character and be like Jesus (1 John 3:2) and on that day, his followers will never sin again.

Yes, I agree. The saints, those whom God chose, he has given them his Spirit as a seal and a down payment on their inheritance. And the Holy Spirit is opening their eyes to sin, and righteousness, and judgment. As Paul says in Romans, we now have the wish and strive to give our bodies to serve righteousness. Sometimes we fail. But the trajectory of our life is toward goodness, righteousness and truth. But we mourn for the day when we will be changed.

I totally agree and well said in my opinion.

I think we generally agree, but allow me to clarify a few points that will make it more total:

1. There is no good reason to think that when God pronounced humanity "very good" He did not mean both morally and fitting.

2. Adam and Eve could choose to be morally bad, because God deemed it good to create humans with MFW rather than robots.

3. As humans, humans remain good or fitting for God's plan, which includes a way for their bad to be justly forgiven or punished.

4. Adam and Eve represent sinful humanity, and Jesus represents renewed humanity.

5. Those who accept Jesus as Lord receive His loving Holy Spirit, but they sin again until heaven.

6. God is grieved by sin, and He suffered on the cross to pay the penalty of sin.

Agreed?

Free will, what does it mean?

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