Is Salvation an event or a process?

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Lovette said:
I don't need a lecture in praise of communism.
Click to expand...
When do facts become a "lecture" "in praise of communism." If I have erred on the facts, please correct me! I explained that the difference between Marx's idea and what evolved from it is horrible and now dead Communist Russia where Oligarchs now rule with no connection to the "voters." Does that sound familiar today in America.....rule by the Oligarches?
 
biblestudent78 said:
When do facts become a "lecture" "in praise of communism." If I have erred on the facts, please correct me! I explained that the difference between Marx's idea and what evolved from it is horrible and now dead Communist Russia where Oligarchs now rule with no connection to the "voters." Does that sound familiar today in America.....rule by the Oligarches?
Click to expand...
"Difference" between Marx's idea and its practice - or logical outcome? Marxism ideology is demonic, against human nature, and fundamentally erroneous in the era of globalization and automation.
 
biblestudent78 said:
Adstar:
In what ways does the Holy Spirit work to mold us and keep us in the flock...Iron out the kinks? I like the pregnancy metaphor. Is it possible for someone to claim they are "saved" without life change like a women who thinks they are pregnant but there is no delivery. So we claim faith but never deliver the love of God to the sick, poor, broken, addicted, imprisoned etc. Seems to me that is a lot more like a false pregnancy.
Click to expand...
Well i see that Holy Spirit acting as a Super conscience.. Letting one know very quickly of one is contemplating sin.. Also the Holy Spirit can cause one to understand something Biblical that one has formerly had no idea about.. If a person reads the Bible and the Holy Spirit is guiding them then they will come to the correct interpretation of the scriptures.. If they are not guided then they will come to false conclusions..

And yes anyone can claim to be saved while not being saved.. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing walking around this planet claiming they are saved..

As for living up to the standards of God.. Many fall short of the standards of God.. But a good indication that one is either right with the LORD or wrong with the LORD is how one either condemns their own failures or makes up excuses for ones failures.. Feeling guilty for failing to deliver the Love of God to others is the right response..
 
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Watchman22. You have presented a structured outline of processes known and unknown that you believe are in play. I want to call your attention to Gate 2 : The Acceptance of the surrendered life.
their manifestations of our Pistos? How do you you suggest we juxtapose Faith and Pistis (greater faith)? How does one evaluate the quality (validity) of our faith? How do we determine if out faith is "sufficient" to be saving faith? How do we know for sure that we have been "sealed?"Is there a sign? What are the signs of the "Spiritual awakening" of which you speak? What are the signs that "dynomite power" arrives? (G) Who is giving what to whom? Exactly when do our prayers to God become acceptable? What are the signs of a person whom the mind of Christ and His presence "take hold"? Why does the "mind of Christ start praying without ceasing" only after the above events take place? Who is Jesus praying to?

In Scripture, the “quality” of faith is never measured by intensity, emotion, or performance. Saving faith is measured by its object (Christ), its fruit (new desires, repentance, endurance), and its seal (the Spirit’s inner witness). The signs of awakening, sealing, and Spirit‑power are not fireworks but transformation: new affections, new obedience, new hatred of sin, new love for Christ, and new perseverance.

Faith vs. Pistis (Greater Faith)​

The juxtaposition:​

Faith — trust, reliance, leaning the weight of your life on Christ.
Pistis — the same trust, but strengthened, stabilized, matured, tested, proven.
Faith saves because of Christ.Greater faith grows because of the Spirit.

The Biblical pattern:​

Weak faith saves (Mark 9:24).
Strong faith endures (Romans 4:20).
Both are real faith.

How do we evaluate the “quality” or validity of our faith?​

Scripture gives three diagnostic categories:
Not “How strong is my faith?” but “Who is my faith in? ”Saving faith rests on Christ alone.
Not perfection, but direction:
A growing hatred of sin
A growing love for Christ
A growing desire for obedience
A growing humility and repentance
These are signs of regeneration.
Saving faith keeps returning to Christ. It may stumble, but it does not abandon Him.

How do we determine if our faith is “sufficient” to be saving faith?​

Saving faith is not measured by quantity but by authenticity.
Signs of authentic saving faith:

Repentance — not perfect, but real
Submission — Christ is Lord, not merely a concept
Affection — Christ becomes precious
Dependence — you lean on Him, not yourself
Endurance — you keep coming back
If these are present—even in seed form—faith is sufficient.

How do we know we have been “sealed”?​

The Spirit marks you as God’s own (Eph. 1:13–14).

Signs of sealing:​

Inner witness — a deep, Spirit‑given assurance
Conviction of sin — not guilt alone, but grief
Illumination — Scripture opens up
Transformation — new desires, new power
Perseverance — you cannot walk away from Christ permanently
These are the marks of Spirit-sealing.

Is there a sign of spiritual awakening?​

Yes—Scripture gives several.
Sudden clarity about sin
Sudden hunger for Scripture
Sudden seriousness about eternity
Sudden awareness of God’s holiness
Sudden desire to pray
Sudden sensitivity to conviction
Sudden desire to obey
Awakening is the Spirit turning the lights on.

What are the signs that “dynamite power” arrives?​

You’re referring to dunamis—Spirit‑power.

Signs of dunamis:​

Victory over habitual sin
Boldness in witness
Strength in suffering
Unusual peace
Unusual endurance
Unusual clarity in prayer
Unusual love for enemies
Dunamis is not emotional fireworks—it is supernatural transformation.

Who is giving what to whom?​

The Father Gives the Son, gives the Spirit, draws the believer.​

The Son Gives His righteousness, His intercession, His life.​

The Spirit Gives regeneration, sealing, power, gifts, fruit, assurance.​

The believer Gives repentance, trust, obedience, worship.​

This is the economy of salvation.

Exactly when do our prayers become acceptable?​

When two things are true:​

We are in Christ. Prayer is acceptable because Christ is acceptable.
We pray in the Spirit. The Spirit aligns our desires with God’s will.
Acceptable prayer begins the moment you are born again.

What are the signs that the mind of Christ “takes hold”?​

You begin to think biblically
You begin to desire holiness
You begin to hate sin
You begin to love righteousness
You begin to see people with compassion
You begin to value humility
You begin to submit your will to God
This is sanctification in action.

Why does “praying without ceasing” begin only after these events?​

Because prayer is the breath of the new nature.
Before regeneration, prayer is duty. After regeneration, prayer is instinct.
The Spirit Himself prays through you (Romans 8:26).

Who is Jesus praying to?​

Jesus prays to the Father.

Why?​

Because:
The Son intercedes
The Father receives
The Spirit applies
This is the Trinitarian structure of salvation.
 
OMC said:
Watchman22. You have presented a structured outline of processes known and unknown that you believe are in play. I want to call your attention to Gate 2 : The Acceptance of the surrendered life.
their manifestations of our Pistos? How do you you suggest we juxtapose Faith and Pistis (greater faith)? How does one evaluate the quality (validity) of our faith? How do we determine if out faith is "sufficient" to be saving faith? How do we know for sure that we have been "sealed?"Is there a sign? What are the signs of the "Spiritual awakening" of which you speak? What are the signs that "dynomite power" arrives? (G) Who is giving what to whom? Exactly when do our prayers to God become acceptable? What are the signs of a person whom the mind of Christ and His presence "take hold"? Why does the "mind of Christ start praying without ceasing" only after the above events take place? Who is Jesus praying to?

In Scripture, the “quality” of faith is never measured by intensity, emotion, or performance. Saving faith is measured by its object (Christ), its fruit (new desires, repentance, endurance), and its seal (the Spirit’s inner witness). The signs of awakening, sealing, and Spirit‑power are not fireworks but transformation: new affections, new obedience, new hatred of sin, new love for Christ, and new perseverance.

Faith vs. Pistis (Greater Faith)​

The juxtaposition:​

Faith — trust, reliance, leaning the weight of your life on Christ.
Pistis — the same trust, but strengthened, stabilized, matured, tested, proven.
Faith saves because of Christ.Greater faith grows because of the Spirit.

The Biblical pattern:​

Weak faith saves (Mark 9:24).
Strong faith endures (Romans 4:20).
Both are real faith.

How do we evaluate the “quality” or validity of our faith?​

Scripture gives three diagnostic categories:
Not “How strong is my faith?” but “Who is my faith in? ”Saving faith rests on Christ alone.
Not perfection, but direction:
A growing hatred of sin
A growing love for Christ
A growing desire for obedience
A growing humility and repentance
These are signs of regeneration.
Saving faith keeps returning to Christ. It may stumble, but it does not abandon Him.

How do we determine if our faith is “sufficient” to be saving faith?​

Saving faith is not measured by quantity but by authenticity.
Signs of authentic saving faith:

Repentance — not perfect, but real
Submission — Christ is Lord, not merely a concept
Affection — Christ becomes precious
Dependence — you lean on Him, not yourself
Endurance — you keep coming back
If these are present—even in seed form—faith is sufficient.

How do we know we have been “sealed”?​

The Spirit marks you as God’s own (Eph. 1:13–14).

Signs of sealing:​

Inner witness — a deep, Spirit‑given assurance
Conviction of sin — not guilt alone, but grief
Illumination — Scripture opens up
Transformation — new desires, new power
Perseverance — you cannot walk away from Christ permanently
These are the marks of Spirit-sealing.

Is there a sign of spiritual awakening?​

Yes—Scripture gives several.
Sudden clarity about sin
Sudden hunger for Scripture
Sudden seriousness about eternity
Sudden awareness of God’s holiness
Sudden desire to pray
Sudden sensitivity to conviction
Sudden desire to obey
Awakening is the Spirit turning the lights on.

What are the signs that “dynamite power” arrives?​

You’re referring to dunamis—Spirit‑power.

Signs of dunamis:​

Victory over habitual sin
Boldness in witness
Strength in suffering
Unusual peace
Unusual endurance
Unusual clarity in prayer
Unusual love for enemies
Dunamis is not emotional fireworks—it is supernatural transformation.

Who is giving what to whom?​

The Father Gives the Son, gives the Spirit, draws the believer.​

The Son Gives His righteousness, His intercession, His life.​

The Spirit Gives regeneration, sealing, power, gifts, fruit, assurance.​

The believer Gives repentance, trust, obedience, worship.​

This is the economy of salvation.

Exactly when do our prayers become acceptable?​

When two things are true:​

We are in Christ. Prayer is acceptable because Christ is acceptable.
We pray in the Spirit. The Spirit aligns our desires with God’s will.
Acceptable prayer begins the moment you are born again.

What are the signs that the mind of Christ “takes hold”?​

You begin to think biblically
You begin to desire holiness
You begin to hate sin
You begin to love righteousness
You begin to see people with compassion
You begin to value humility
You begin to submit your will to God
This is sanctification in action.

Why does “praying without ceasing” begin only after these events?​

Because prayer is the breath of the new nature.
Before regeneration, prayer is duty. After regeneration, prayer is instinct.
The Spirit Himself prays through you (Romans 8:26).

Who is Jesus praying to?​

Jesus prays to the Father.

Why?​

Because:
The Son intercedes
The Father receives
The Spirit applies
This is the Trinitarian structure of salvation.
Click to expand...

Omc, welcome to cc.

Thanks for the detailed questions.

I just saw it so let me digest and I'll start a reply shortly.
 
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OMC said:
Watchman22. You have presented a structured outline of processes known and unknown that you believe are in play. I want to call your attention to Gate 2 : The Acceptance of the surrendered life.
their manifestations of our Pistos? How do you you suggest we juxtapose Faith and Pistis (greater faith)? How does one evaluate the quality (validity) of our faith? How do we determine if out faith is "sufficient" to be saving faith? How do we know for sure that we have been "sealed?"Is there a sign? What are the signs of the "Spiritual awakening" of which you speak? What are the signs that "dynomite power" arrives? (G) Who is giving what to whom? Exactly when do our prayers to God become acceptable? What are the signs of a person whom the mind of Christ and His presence "take hold"? Why does the "mind of Christ start praying without ceasing" only after the above events take place? Who is Jesus praying to?

In Scripture, the “quality” of faith is never measured by intensity, emotion, or performance. Saving faith is measured by its object (Christ), its fruit (new desires, repentance, endurance), and its seal (the Spirit’s inner witness). The signs of awakening, sealing, and Spirit‑power are not fireworks but transformation: new affections, new obedience, new hatred of sin, new love for Christ, and new perseverance.

Faith vs. Pistis (Greater Faith)​

The juxtaposition:​

Faith — trust, reliance, leaning the weight of your life on Christ.
Pistis — the same trust, but strengthened, stabilized, matured, tested, proven.
Faith saves because of Christ.Greater faith grows because of the Spirit.

The Biblical pattern:​

Weak faith saves (Mark 9:24).
Strong faith endures (Romans 4:20).
Both are real faith.

How do we evaluate the “quality” or validity of our faith?​

Scripture gives three diagnostic categories:
Not “How strong is my faith?” but “Who is my faith in? ”Saving faith rests on Christ alone.
Not perfection, but direction:
A growing hatred of sin
A growing love for Christ
A growing desire for obedience
A growing humility and repentance
These are signs of regeneration.
Saving faith keeps returning to Christ. It may stumble, but it does not abandon Him.

How do we determine if our faith is “sufficient” to be saving faith?​

Saving faith is not measured by quantity but by authenticity.
Signs of authentic saving faith:

Repentance — not perfect, but real
Submission — Christ is Lord, not merely a concept
Affection — Christ becomes precious
Dependence — you lean on Him, not yourself
Endurance — you keep coming back
If these are present—even in seed form—faith is sufficient.

How do we know we have been “sealed”?​

The Spirit marks you as God’s own (Eph. 1:13–14).

Signs of sealing:​

Inner witness — a deep, Spirit‑given assurance
Conviction of sin — not guilt alone, but grief
Illumination — Scripture opens up
Transformation — new desires, new power
Perseverance — you cannot walk away from Christ permanently
These are the marks of Spirit-sealing.

Is there a sign of spiritual awakening?​

Yes—Scripture gives several.
Sudden clarity about sin
Sudden hunger for Scripture
Sudden seriousness about eternity
Sudden awareness of God’s holiness
Sudden desire to pray
Sudden sensitivity to conviction
Sudden desire to obey
Awakening is the Spirit turning the lights on.

What are the signs that “dynamite power” arrives?​

You’re referring to dunamis—Spirit‑power.

Signs of dunamis:​

Victory over habitual sin
Boldness in witness
Strength in suffering
Unusual peace
Unusual endurance
Unusual clarity in prayer
Unusual love for enemies
Dunamis is not emotional fireworks—it is supernatural transformation.

Who is giving what to whom?​

The Father Gives the Son, gives the Spirit, draws the believer.​

The Son Gives His righteousness, His intercession, His life.​

The Spirit Gives regeneration, sealing, power, gifts, fruit, assurance.​

The believer Gives repentance, trust, obedience, worship.​

This is the economy of salvation.

Exactly when do our prayers become acceptable?​

When two things are true:​

We are in Christ. Prayer is acceptable because Christ is acceptable.
We pray in the Spirit. The Spirit aligns our desires with God’s will.
Acceptable prayer begins the moment you are born again.

What are the signs that the mind of Christ “takes hold”?​

You begin to think biblically
You begin to desire holiness
You begin to hate sin
You begin to love righteousness
You begin to see people with compassion
You begin to value humility
You begin to submit your will to God
This is sanctification in action.

Why does “praying without ceasing” begin only after these events?​

Because prayer is the breath of the new nature.
Before regeneration, prayer is duty. After regeneration, prayer is instinct.
The Spirit Himself prays through you (Romans 8:26).

Who is Jesus praying to?​

Jesus prays to the Father.

Why?​

Because:
The Son intercedes
The Father receives
The Spirit applies
This is the Trinitarian structure of salvation.
Click to expand...

Do you know how rare it is for someone to ask even one right question?

You've asked a handful of them. I can give you good answers in public, better ones in private. Depends on how you respond.

In giving you these answers, you realize your salvation journey will be harder? If you know and expect these things that happen, and happen in the right order, it will always be in your subconscious as a hindrance

Where this becomes a problem is when you are fulfilling the continually surrendered life, subconsciously your going to have to deal with this information, expecting something in return for your surrendered life. If we have any expectations of something in return for the surrendered life, thats not a surrendered life, but a business deal, and will avail nothing.

Are you willing to still move forward?
 
I have not asked any questions. I simply answered with my understanding of the question.
Salvation is God taking a spiritually dead person, making them alive, forgiving them, adopting them, transforming them, and ultimately perfecting them forever. Since I, as a person, have nothing to do with it but Christ alone, i dont see any issue.
 
OMC said:
I have not asked any questions. I simply answered with my understanding of the question.
Salvation is God taking a spiritually dead person, making them alive, forgiving them, adopting them, transforming them, and ultimately perfecting them forever. Since I, as a person, have nothing to do with it but Christ alone, i dont see any issue.
Click to expand...

So you don't understand the correct response to the call of the Father is, "pisteuo ", a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?

If not , what have you done to respond to the call of the Father?
 
Watchman22 said:
I got it, I need an answer to my question.
#88
Click to expand...
Faith — trust, reliance, leaning the weight of your life on Christ.
Pistis — the same trust, but strengthened, stabilized, matured, tested, proven.
Faith saves because of Christ.
Greater faith grows because of the Spirit.
i do understand. As far as what i have done is not relevant. Its not about me. Its about Christ.
 
OMC said:
Faith — trust, reliance, leaning the weight of your life on Christ.
Pistis — the same trust, but strengthened, stabilized, matured, tested, proven.
Faith saves because of Christ.
Greater faith grows because of the Spirit.
i do understand. As far as what i have done is not relevant. Its not about me. Its about Christ.
Click to expand...

Im ok with your understanding of faith.

Your using the noun pistis as the verb pisteuo, but thats another discussion.

The Vines gives the definition of pisteuo as a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. That is what ive done and stood on for 38 years.

The only red flag that I would need to pay attention to is if you don't accept that understanding. It seems like that wouldn't be a stretch from your current understanding. So I'll move forward if we're kind of on the same page.
 
OMC said:
Watchman22. You have presented a structured outline of processes known and unknown that you believe are in play. I want to call your attention to Gate 2 : The Acceptance of the surrendered life.
their manifestations of our Pistos? How do you you suggest we juxtapose Faith and Pistis (greater faith)? How does one evaluate the quality (validity) of our faith? How do we determine if out faith is "sufficient" to be saving faith? How do we know for sure that we have been "sealed?"Is there a sign? What are the signs of the "Spiritual awakening" of which you speak? What are the signs that "dynomite power" arrives? (G) Who is giving what to whom? Exactly when do our prayers to God become acceptable? What are the signs of a person whom the mind of Christ and His presence "take hold"? Why does the "mind of Christ start praying without ceasing" only after the above events take place? Who is Jesus praying to?

In Scripture, the “quality” of faith is never measured by intensity, emotion, or performance. Saving faith is measured by its object (Christ), its fruit (new desires, repentance, endurance), and its seal (the Spirit’s inner witness). The signs of awakening, sealing, and Spirit‑power are not fireworks but transformation: new affections, new obedience, new hatred of sin, new love for Christ, and new perseverance.

Faith vs. Pistis (Greater Faith)​

The juxtaposition:​

Faith — trust, reliance, leaning the weight of your life on Christ.
Pistis — the same trust, but strengthened, stabilized, matured, tested, proven.
Faith saves because of Christ.Greater faith grows because of the Spirit.

The Biblical pattern:​

Weak faith saves (Mark 9:24).
Strong faith endures (Romans 4:20).
Both are real faith.

How do we evaluate the “quality” or validity of our faith?​

Scripture gives three diagnostic categories:
Not “How strong is my faith?” but “Who is my faith in? ”Saving faith rests on Christ alone.
Not perfection, but direction:
A growing hatred of sin
A growing love for Christ
A growing desire for obedience
A growing humility and repentance
These are signs of regeneration.
Saving faith keeps returning to Christ. It may stumble, but it does not abandon Him.

How do we determine if our faith is “sufficient” to be saving faith?​

Saving faith is not measured by quantity but by authenticity.
Signs of authentic saving faith:

Repentance — not perfect, but real
Submission — Christ is Lord, not merely a concept
Affection — Christ becomes precious
Dependence — you lean on Him, not yourself
Endurance — you keep coming back
If these are present—even in seed form—faith is sufficient.

How do we know we have been “sealed”?​

The Spirit marks you as God’s own (Eph. 1:13–14).

Signs of sealing:​

Inner witness — a deep, Spirit‑given assurance
Conviction of sin — not guilt alone, but grief
Illumination — Scripture opens up
Transformation — new desires, new power
Perseverance — you cannot walk away from Christ permanently
These are the marks of Spirit-sealing.

Is there a sign of spiritual awakening?​

Yes—Scripture gives several.
Sudden clarity about sin
Sudden hunger for Scripture
Sudden seriousness about eternity
Sudden awareness of God’s holiness
Sudden desire to pray
Sudden sensitivity to conviction
Sudden desire to obey
Awakening is the Spirit turning the lights on.

What are the signs that “dynamite power” arrives?​

You’re referring to dunamis—Spirit‑power.

Signs of dunamis:​

Victory over habitual sin
Boldness in witness
Strength in suffering
Unusual peace
Unusual endurance
Unusual clarity in prayer
Unusual love for enemies
Dunamis is not emotional fireworks—it is supernatural transformation.

Who is giving what to whom?​

The Father Gives the Son, gives the Spirit, draws the believer.​

The Son Gives His righteousness, His intercession, His life.​

The Spirit Gives regeneration, sealing, power, gifts, fruit, assurance.​

The believer Gives repentance, trust, obedience, worship.​

This is the economy of salvation.

Exactly when do our prayers become acceptable?​

When two things are true:​

We are in Christ. Prayer is acceptable because Christ is acceptable.
We pray in the Spirit. The Spirit aligns our desires with God’s will.
Acceptable prayer begins the moment you are born again.

What are the signs that the mind of Christ “takes hold”?​

You begin to think biblically
You begin to desire holiness
You begin to hate sin
You begin to love righteousness
You begin to see people with compassion
You begin to value humility
You begin to submit your will to God
This is sanctification in action.

Why does “praying without ceasing” begin only after these events?​

Because prayer is the breath of the new nature.
Before regeneration, prayer is duty. After regeneration, prayer is instinct.
The Spirit Himself prays through you (Romans 8:26).

Who is Jesus praying to?​

Jesus prays to the Father.

Why?​

Because:
The Son intercedes
The Father receives
The Spirit applies
This is the Trinitarian structure of salvation.
Click to expand...

OMC said:
Again, I haven't asked any questions.
Click to expand...

I guess im misunderstanding your post. You said you aren't asking any questions, but i count 10 questions in the first paragraph.

The other 12 questions you give answers to yourself, (AI)?

I did gleen out you see the salvation experience happening in a moment of time, believe and receive possibly? Is that true?
 
Watchman22 said:
Im ok with your understanding of faith.

Your using the noun pistis as the verb pisteuo, but thats another discussion.

The Vines gives the definition of pisteuo as a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. That is what ive done and stood on for 38 years.

The only red flag that I would need to pay attention to is if you don't accept that understanding. It seems like that wouldn't be a stretch from your current understanding. So I'll move forward if we're kind of on the same page.
Click to expand...
Vine’s definition is broadly true, but it needs careful nuance. The Greek verb pisteuō (πιστεύω), usually translated believe, is richer and more active than the English word belief. Vine’s captures part of that richness, but it’s not the whole picture.
The core idea of pisteuō is trusting, relying upon, or placing confidence in someone — especially in a relational, covenantal sense.
In the New Testament, pisteuō includes:
Intellectual agreement — acknowledging something is true
Personal trust — relying on Christ Himself
Faithfulness / loyalty — continuing in that trust
Obedient response — acting on that trust
So pisteuō is not merely “believing facts.” It is relational allegiance.
Vine’s says pisteuō means:
A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
This is partially correct, but here’s the nuance, What Vine gets right is Personal surrender is indeed part of biblical faith. Jesus repeatedly connects believing with following, obeying, and entrusting oneself to Him (John 10:27; John 6:35).
A life inspired by surrender reflects the NT pattern:
“Faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6)“The obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5)“Faith without works is dead” (James 2:17)
so Vine is right that pisteuō is not passive.
Vine’s wording can sound like:
Faith = surrender + good works
Faith = a transformed life
But biblically:
Faith itself is trust, not behavior.
The transformed life is the fruit of faith, not the definition of faith.
In other words: Pisteuō = entrusting yourself to Christ. A changed life = what happens because you entrusted yourself to Christ.
Vine’s blends the root with the fruit. Helpful, but not precise.
How scholars define pisteuō (more exact)
Here are the three most authoritative components:
You believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31).
You believe in Christ — relying on Him for salvation (John 3:16).
You believe unto salvation — committing yourself to His lordship (Rom. 10:10).
Vine’s definition emphasizes #3, but pisteuō includes all three.
Pisteuō means to trust, rely on, and entrust oneself to Christ —and such trust inevitably produces a surrendered, transformed life.
then only thing i can do is completely put my trust in him.
 
Watchman22 said:
I guess im misunderstanding your post. You said you aren't asking any questions, but i count 10 questions in the first paragraph.

The other 12 questions you give answers to yourself, (AI)?

I did gleen out you see the salvation experience happening in a moment of time, believe and receive possibly? Is that true?
Click to expand...
This was your post,
Watchman22. You have presented a structured outline of processes known and unknown that you believe are in play. I want to call your attention to Gate 2 : The Acceptance of the surrendered life.
their manifestations of our Pistos? How do you you suggest we juxtapose Faith and Pistis (greater faith)? How does one evaluate the quality (validity) of our faith? How do we determine if out faith is "sufficient" to be saving faith? How do we know for sure that we have been "sealed?"Is there a sign? What are the signs of the "Spiritual awakening" of which you speak? What are the signs that "dynomite power" arrives? (G) Who is giving what to whom? Exactly when do our prayers to God become acceptable? What are the signs of a person whom the mind of Christ and His presence "take hold"? Why does the "mind of Christ start praying without ceasing" only after the above events take place? Who is Jesus praying to?
I answered.
 
OMC said:
This was your post,
Watchman22. You have presented a structured outline of processes known and unknown that you believe are in play. I want to call your attention to Gate 2 : The Acceptance of the surrendered life.
their manifestations of our Pistos? How do you you suggest we juxtapose Faith and Pistis (greater faith)? How does one evaluate the quality (validity) of our faith? How do we determine if out faith is "sufficient" to be saving faith? How do we know for sure that we have been "sealed?"Is there a sign? What are the signs of the "Spiritual awakening" of which you speak? What are the signs that "dynomite power" arrives? (G) Who is giving what to whom? Exactly when do our prayers to God become acceptable? What are the signs of a person whom the mind of Christ and His presence "take hold"? Why does the "mind of Christ start praying without ceasing" only after the above events take place? Who is Jesus praying to?
I answered.
Click to expand...

Thats the problem, I didn't post that.
Something got mixed up somewhere.
 
OMC said:
Vine’s definition is broadly true, but it needs careful nuance. The Greek verb pisteuō (πιστεύω), usually translated believe, is richer and more active than the English word belief. Vine’s captures part of that richness, but it’s not the whole picture.
The core idea of pisteuō is trusting, relying upon, or placing confidence in someone — especially in a relational, covenantal sense.
In the New Testament, pisteuō includes:
Intellectual agreement — acknowledging something is true
Personal trust — relying on Christ Himself
Faithfulness / loyalty — continuing in that trust
Obedient response — acting on that trust
So pisteuō is not merely “believing facts.” It is relational allegiance.
Vine’s says pisteuō means:
A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
This is partially correct, but here’s the nuance, What Vine gets right is Personal surrender is indeed part of biblical faith. Jesus repeatedly connects believing with following, obeying, and entrusting oneself to Him (John 10:27; John 6:35).
A life inspired by surrender reflects the NT pattern:
“Faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6)“The obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5)“Faith without works is dead” (James 2:17)
so Vine is right that pisteuō is not passive.
Vine’s wording can sound like:
Faith = surrender + good works
Faith = a transformed life
But biblically:
Faith itself is trust, not behavior.
The transformed life is the fruit of faith, not the definition of faith.
In other words: Pisteuō = entrusting yourself to Christ. A changed life = what happens because you entrusted yourself to Christ.
Vine’s blends the root with the fruit. Helpful, but not precise.
How scholars define pisteuō (more exact)
Here are the three most authoritative components:
You believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31).
You believe in Christ — relying on Him for salvation (John 3:16).
You believe unto salvation — committing yourself to His lordship (Rom. 10:10).
Vine’s definition emphasizes #3, but pisteuō includes all three.
Pisteuō means to trust, rely on, and entrust oneself to Christ —and such trust inevitably produces a surrendered, transformed life.
then only thing i can do is completely put my trust in him.
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Are you aware that the English language doesn't have a corresponding verb to the noun faith like the Greek does?
 
Watchman22 said:
Are you aware that the English language doesn't have a corresponding verb to the noun faith like the Greek does?
Click to expand...
English forces us to translate pisteuō as believe, but belief in English is primarily cognitive, intellectual, or propositional. Greek pisteuō, however, is relational, volitional, and active.
What Greek communicates that English loses:
Faith-as-trust — leaning your whole weight on Christ
Faith-as-loyalty — fidelity, allegiance
Faith-as-ongoing action — continuing reliance
Faith-as-embodied obedience — not mere mental agreement
English “believe” can mean “I think something is true.”Greek pisteuō means “I entrust myself to this person.”
So yes, absolutley
 
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