Is Salvation an event or a process?

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OMC said:
English forces us to translate pisteuō as believe, but belief in English is primarily cognitive, intellectual, or propositional. Greek pisteuō, however, is relational, volitional, and active.
What Greek communicates that English loses:
Faith-as-trust — leaning your whole weight on Christ
Faith-as-loyalty — fidelity, allegiance
Faith-as-ongoing action — continuing reliance
Faith-as-embodied obedience — not mere mental agreement
English “believe” can mean “I think something is true.”Greek pisteuō means “I entrust myself to this person.”
So yes, absolutley
Click to expand...

No secret, i call the words used in the English translation of pisteuo, believe, believer, and believing, a mistranslation.

If I were not seeing the incredible damage using the word believe has caused, I may be nice with a bad translation.

The bottom line,
Faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, ( to start the process) is 3 parts, 1) an act: a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
2) based upon a belief: that He will accept the surrendered life.
3) sustained by confidence: that making all the 100s of daily decisions support the fact we really do consider our lives to be His now and not ours anymore.

A, B, Cs of faith.

That mistranslated word believe used 248 times in our NT, has forced the reader to focus on something believed, which is one of the parts, but not a belief in what Jesus said and did, but what we hope His response to our surrendered life will be.

Any understanding of God and His word would come later, after God, His Son, His Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word can be claimed and belong to the faither.

Going deeper:
How can the Father call out certain ones, if the whole process depends on some level of understanding about Christ?
Thats more possible in todays world, but how could that be viable in say the first 1000 years of life on earth? The word believe breaks down , but what ive presented could give the Father access to anyone, anywhere, anytime.
 
Watchman22 said:
No secret, i call the words used in the English translation of pisteuo, believe, believer, and believing, a mistranslation.

If I were not seeing the incredible damage using the word believe has caused, I may be nice with a bad translation.

The bottom line,
Faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, ( to start the process) is 3 parts, 1) an act: a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
2) based upon a belief: that He will accept the surrendered life.
3) sustained by confidence: that making all the 100s of daily decisions support the fact we really do consider our lives to be His now and not ours anymore.

A, B, Cs of faith.

That mistranslated word believe used 248 times in our NT, has forced the reader to focus on something believed, which is one of the parts, but not a belief in what Jesus said and did, but what we hope His response to our surrendered life will be.

Any understanding of God and His word would come later, after God, His Son, His Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word can be claimed and belong to the faither.

Going deeper:
How can the Father call out certain ones, if the whole process depends on some level of understanding about Christ?
Thats more possible in todays world, but how could that be viable in say the first 1000 years of life on earth? The word believe breaks down , but what ive presented could give the Father access to anyone, anywhere, anytime.
Click to expand...
"How can the Father call out certain ones, if the whole process depends on some level of understanding about Christ?"
this is the question i will answer first.
God can “call out” people before they fully understand Christ because the call itself creates the understanding.
In Scripture, God’s call is not dependent on human comprehension—it produces comprehension.
The call awakens, draws, illumines, and grants the very faith it requires.
 
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Adstar said:
Well i see that Holy Spirit acting as a Super conscience.. Letting one know very quickly of one is contemplating sin.. Also the Holy Spirit can cause one to understand something Biblical that one has formerly had no idea about.. If a person reads the Bible and the Holy Spirit is guiding them then they will come to the correct interpretation of the scriptures.. If they are not guided then they will come to false conclusions..

And yes anyone can claim to be saved while not being saved.. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing walking around this planet claiming they are saved..

As for living up to the standards of God.. Many fall short of the standards of God.. But a good indication that one is either right with the LORD or wrong with the LORD is how one either condemns their own failures or makes up excuses for ones failures.. Feeling guilty for failing to deliver the Love of God to others is the right response..
Click to expand...
I believe you may have conveniently bifurcated sin. There are two broad categories of sin. One is personally violating God's will and Jesus example. The second and perhaps the more important kind of sin is the sin of never taking up your cross, never being converted into the love of both God and our neighbor. Call it the sin of indifference. Paul told us you have "all the faith in the world," but if you don't have love you are just making noise. Jesus set a standard for this direction for our lives first in the story of the Good Samaritan and then Jesus as recorded in Matthew 25 makes it clear exactly what it means to claim salvation without required love.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
OMC said:
"How can the Father call out certain ones, if the whole process depends on some level of understanding about Christ?"
this is the question i will answer first.
God can “call out” people before they fully understand Christ because the call itself creates the understanding.
In Scripture, God’s call is not dependent on human comprehension—it produces comprehension.
The call awakens, draws, illumines, and grants the very faith it requires.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.

Except for one thing, Faith , our response, faithing or pisteuo, is our response. That response isn't given to us. The "ability" to respond is definitely primed by Him, but we must choose to surrender our lives to Him. He doesn't surrender our lives to Himself as some kind of gift. This part is an intersection where understandings separate. Again to preserve the mistranslation.

Are we still good?
 
OMC said:
"How can the Father call out certain ones, if the whole process depends on some level of understanding about Christ?"
this is the question i will answer first.
God can “call out” people before they fully understand Christ because the call itself creates the understanding.
In Scripture, God’s call is not dependent on human comprehension—it produces comprehension.
The call awakens, draws, illumines, and grants the very faith it requires.
Click to expand...

I also think the Father can call out anyone, anytime without any understanding of Christ yet.
All that is required at the beginning stage is a correct response to the caller.
 
Watchman22 said:
I agree 100%.

Except for one thing, Faith , our response, faithing or pisteuo, is our response. That response isn't given to us. The "ability" to respond is definitely primed by Him, but we must choose to surrender our lives to Him. He doesn't surrender our lives to Himself as some kind of gift. This part is an intersection where understandings separate. Again to preserve the mistranslation.

Are we still good?
Click to expand...
Scripture presents faith as both a gift of God and a genuine human response, never one without the other.
 
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Faith (pisteuō) is indeed our response, but Scripture teaches that this response is itself a gift of God.
God does not merely prime our ability; He regenerates, draws, opens our hearts, and grants us the ability to believe. Our surrender is real, but it is the result of His prior work, not something we produce independently. The divide in understanding comes from failing to distinguish between the source of faith (God) and the exercise of faith (our response).
 
Watchman22 said:
I agree 100%.

Except for one thing, Faith , our response, faithing or pisteuo, is our response. That response isn't given to us. The "ability" to respond is definitely primed by Him, but we must choose to surrender our lives to Him. He doesn't surrender our lives to Himself as some kind of gift. This part is an intersection where understandings separate. Again to preserve the mistranslation.

Are we still good?
Click to expand...
Watchman22 and OMC
I think it important to distinguish the process a bit more because IMHO we purposely conflate two words with very different meanings into one word that is inaccurate. Our faith journey does not begin with faith, it begins with belief. Belief is a purely a mental process. If you want to anthropomorphize it we say we believe with our "heart." However defined, that belief is very often structured by the church tradition we attend. Each has a number of things you must believe in order to believe "right." These often take the form of catechisms, creeds, statements of faith etc. We need to be very careful to recognize that believing information about Jesus is not the objective. It is a step in life of faithfulness to Jesus or it is nothing.

Faith on the other hand is always defined by how you walk, how you live and what of Jesus's commission you are willing to signup up for. Faith according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 indicates that even faith without conversion is inadequate. One does not come to love anything in life just because you mentally believe in it. That is why we judge our marriages by how loving and faithful they are. Faith and love form the center of every valued relationship we have in life. Perhaps that should inform us of what Jesus is talking about when He links faithfulness with obedience. Faithfulness and loving service. Faithfulness in taking up our cross daily.

On the ground, belief and faith while part of the same process of conversion, are miles apart in their impact on our lives.
 
OMC said:
Faith (pisteuō) is indeed our response, but Scripture teaches that this response is itself a gift of God.
God does not merely prime our ability; He regenerates, draws, opens our hearts, and grants us the ability to believe. Our surrender is real, but it is the result of His prior work, not something we produce independently. The divide in understanding comes from failing to distinguish between the source of faith (God) and the exercise of faith (our response).
Click to expand...

There it is, "He grants us the ability to believe."
I have a detailed understanding of the paradoxes of God. Willingly choosing Him, by faith, by a continually surrendered life is not one of them.
 
OMC said:
Scripture presents faith as both a gift of God and a genuine human response, never one without the other.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the faith your stating as being presented, is the noun pistis, not the corresponding verb pisteuo?
 
OMC said:
Faith (pisteuō) is indeed our response, but Scripture teaches that this response is itself a gift of God.
God does not merely prime our ability; He regenerates, draws, opens our hearts, and grants us the ability to believe. Our surrender is real, but it is the result of His prior work, not something we produce independently. The divide in understanding comes from failing to distinguish between the source of faith (God) and the exercise of faith (our response).
Click to expand...

I think also, im highlighting the very beginning of the process, before we are His, no indwelt spirit yet. You keep referencing regeneration, after we are given His spirit.

So are we talking about the same point in the process?
 
biblestudent78 said:
Watchman22 and OMC
I think it important to distinguish the process a bit more because IMHO we purposely conflate two words with very different meanings into one word that is inaccurate. Our faith journey does not begin with faith, it begins with belief. Belief is a purely a mental process. If you want to anthropomorphize it we say we believe with our "heart." However defined, that belief is very often structured by the church tradition we attend. Each has a number of things you must believe in order to believe "right." These often take the form of catechisms, creeds, statements of faith etc. We need to be very careful to recognize that believing information about Jesus is not the objective. It is a step in life of faithfulness to Jesus or it is nothing.

Faith on the other hand is always defined by how you walk, how you live and what of Jesus's commission you are willing to signup up for. Faith according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 indicates that even faith without conversion is inadequate. One does not come to love anything in life just because you mentally believe in it. That is why we judge our marriages by how loving and faithful they are. Faith and love form the center of every valued relationship we have in life. Perhaps that should inform us of what Jesus is talking about when He links faithfulness with obedience. Faithfulness and loving service. Faithfulness in taking up our cross daily.

On the ground, belief and faith while part of the same process of conversion, are miles apart in their impact on our lives.
Click to expand...
Scripture does not teach that “belief” (mental assent) comes first and “faith” comes later.In the New Testament, belief (pisteuō) is the verb form of faith (pistis). They are not two different stages.
Jesus does not say, “First believe mentally, then later have faith.”
He says, “Whoever believes (pisteuō) has eternal life.” — John 3:16
“Believe in God; believe also in Me.” — John 14:1
“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” — Romans 4:3
In Greek:
pistis = faith (noun)
pisteuō = to faith / to trust / to rely (verb)
They are the same concept expressed in two grammatical forms.
A person’s faith journey begins when the Holy Spirit grants saving faith, which includes, belief, trust, reliance and allegiance.
Faith and belief are not sequential; they are inseparable aspects of the same Spirit‑given response to Christ.
“Belief is purely a mental process.”
Scripture explicitly denies this.
Biblical “belief” is:
relational (John 1:12)
volitional (John 7:17)
obedient (Romans 1:5)
transformational (2 Cor 5:17)
James says: “Even the demons believe—and tremble.” — James 2:19. This shows that mere mental belief is not saving belief
But saving belief is never “purely mental. ”It is trust, reliance, and submission. Biblical belief is not mental agreement but personal trust in Christ that results in obedience.
Regarding church traditions, Tradition may shape doctrine, but saving belief is created by the Spirit through the Word, not by church systems.
“Believing information about Jesus is not the objective.” I do not agree.
Scripture does require believing information about Jesus, His deity (John 8:24), His resurrection (Romans 10:9), His identity as Messiah (John 20:31)
John explicitly states: “These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ… and that by believing you may have life.” — (John 20:31)
It is true that mere information is not enough (James 2:19).
We must believe the truth about Jesus AND entrust ourselves to Him. Saving faith includes correct belief but it is more than information.
Faith is not defined by works. Faith is demonstrated by works.
“We are justified by faith apart from works.” — Romans 3:28
“Faith without works is dead.” — James 2:17
Works prove faith; they do not define faith.
Faith is defined by trust in Christ and demonstrated by obedience.
Paul never mentions “conversion” in 1 Corinthians 13.
He says: “If I have all faith… but have not love, I am nothing.” — 1 Cor 13:2
This means, Faith without love is empty, not, “faith without conversion is inadequate.”
Paul is addressing spiritual gifts, not salvation.
Paul teaches that faith without love is worthless in practice, but he does not teach that faith without conversion exists or is inadequate.
Saving faith is not “mental belief.” It is Spirit‑produced (Gal 5:22). Love is also Spirit‑produced (Rom 5:5).
The Spirit produces both, faith, love, obedience.
Not human psychology.
Love for Christ flows from the Spirit’s work, not from mental belief or human effort.
Faith produces faithfulness, obedience, and cross‑bearing, but these are not the definition of faith.
 
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Watchman22 said:
I think also, im highlighting the very beginning of the process, before we are His, no indwelt spirit yet. You keep referencing regeneration, after we are given His spirit.

So are we talking about the same point in the process?
Click to expand...
Scripture teaches that all people are spiritually dead in sin and completely unable to come to God or produce faith on their own (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 3:11).
Through the hearing of the Word, God calls the dead, and by the power of the Holy Spirit He sovereignly regenerates the heart, making us alive in Christ (John 6:63; James 1:18).
Regeneration is entirely God’s work — He removes the heart of stone, gives a heart of flesh, and writes His law upon it (Ezekiel 36:26–27).
Salvation from beginning to end is His work alone, and nothing can be added to or taken from what He accomplishes (Philippians 1:6; Ephesians 2:8–9).
 
OMC said:
Scripture teaches that all people are spiritually dead in sin and completely unable to come to God or produce faith on their own (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 3:11).
Through the hearing of the Word, God calls the dead, and by the power of the Holy Spirit He sovereignly regenerates the heart, making us alive in Christ (John 6:63; James 1:18).
Regeneration is entirely God’s work — He removes the heart of stone, gives a heart of flesh, and writes His law upon it (Ezekiel 36:26–27).
Salvation from beginning to end is His work alone, and nothing can be added to or taken from what He accomplishes (Philippians 1:6; Ephesians 2:8–9).
Click to expand...

So it's believe and receive, just repackaged in a prettier package.
Im familiar will all the promises and what He gives and is going to give us.
We gotta faithe, He doesn't do that for us. That's the one thing we must choose to do.
 
Watchman22 said:
So it's believe and receive, just repackaged in a prettier package.
Im familiar will all the promises and what He gives and is going to give us.
We gotta faithe, He doesn't do that for us. That's the one thing we must choose to do.
Click to expand...
Salvation from beginning to end is His work alone, and nothing can be added to or taken from what He accomplishes
 
OMC said:
Salvation from beginning to end is His work alone, and nothing can be added to or taken from what He accomplishes
Click to expand...

Then that means you haven't even started your surrendered life yet? He made the call, and He's still waiting for the correct response. He's not going to wait forever.
 
Watchman22 said:
Then that means you haven't even started your surrendered life yet? He made the call, and He's still waiting for the correct response. He's not going to wait forever.
Click to expand...
That is not what im saying and you are not paying attention. We would not even be having this conversation had i not surrendered. I would not surrender without his spirit doing the work in me to do so. It is not I but the spirit of God that finishes his work. NOT ME.
 
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OMC said:
That is not what im saying and you are not paying attention. We would not even be having this conversation had i not surrendered. I would not surrender without his spirit doing the work in me to do so. It is not I but the spirit of God that finishes his work. NOT ME.
Click to expand...

So what work other t han the call of the Father and you referring to?
 
OMC said:
Scripture does not teach that “belief” (mental assent) comes first and “faith” comes later.In the New Testament, belief (pisteuō) is the verb form of faith (pistis). They are not two different stages.
Jesus does not say, “First believe mentally, then later have faith.”
He says, “Whoever believes (pisteuō) has eternal life.” — John 3:16
“Believe in God; believe also in Me.” — John 14:1
“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” — Romans 4:3
In Greek:
pistis = faith (noun)
pisteuō = to faith / to trust / to rely (verb)
They are the same concept expressed in two grammatical forms.
A person’s faith journey begins when the Holy Spirit grants saving faith, which includes, belief, trust, reliance and allegiance.
Faith and belief are not sequential; they are inseparable aspects of the same Spirit‑given response to Christ.
“Belief is purely a mental process.”
Scripture explicitly denies this.
Biblical “belief” is:
relational (John 1:12)
volitional (John 7:17)
obedient (Romans 1:5)
transformational (2 Cor 5:17)
James says: “Even the demons believe—and tremble.” — James 2:19. This shows that mere mental belief is not saving belief
But saving belief is never “purely mental. ”It is trust, reliance, and submission. Biblical belief is not mental agreement but personal trust in Christ that results in obedience.
Regarding church traditions, Tradition may shape doctrine, but saving belief is created by the Spirit through the Word, not by church systems.
“Believing information about Jesus is not the objective.” I do not agree.
Scripture does require believing information about Jesus, His deity (John 8:24), His resurrection (Romans 10:9), His identity as Messiah (John 20:31)
John explicitly states: “These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ… and that by believing you may have life.” — (John 20:31)
It is true that mere information is not enough (James 2:19).
We must believe the truth about Jesus AND entrust ourselves to Him. Saving faith includes correct belief but it is more than information.
Faith is not defined by works. Faith is demonstrated by works.
“We are justified by faith apart from works.” — Romans 3:28
“Faith without works is dead.” — James 2:17
Works prove faith; they do not define faith.
Faith is defined by trust in Christ and demonstrated by obedience.
Paul never mentions “conversion” in 1 Corinthians 13.
He says: “If I have all faith… but have not love, I am nothing.” — 1 Cor 13:2
This means, Faith without love is empty, not, “faith without conversion is inadequate.”
Paul is addressing spiritual gifts, not salvation.
Paul teaches that faith without love is worthless in practice, but he does not teach that faith without conversion exists or is inadequate.
Saving faith is not “mental belief.” It is Spirit‑produced (Gal 5:22). Love is also Spirit‑produced (Rom 5:5).
The Spirit produces both, faith, love, obedience.
Not human psychology.
Love for Christ flows from the Spirit’s work, not from mental belief or human effort.
Faith produces faithfulness, obedience, and cross‑bearing, but these are not the definition of faith.
Click to expand...

There is no mental assent. Many definitions make that clear. Pisteuo is not a mental assent.
 
OMC said:
That is not what im saying and you are not paying attention. We would not even be having this conversation had i not surrendered. I would not surrender without his spirit doing the work in me to do so. It is not I but the spirit of God that finishes his work. NOT ME.
Click to expand...

You are inadvertently adding belief of something to pisteuo, that is not required .
 
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