The Ark of the Covenant Debate

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Where is the Ark of the Covenant?

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BigO25 said:
The. Book of Revelation discusses the covenant. But there is a mixture of conflicting interpretations. What is your opinion and determine why you think so.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, in the temple of GOD in Heaven. Why?

[Rev 11:15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[Rev 11:16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

[Rev 11:17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

[Rev 11:18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[Rev 11:19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Note that it is seen at the time of judgement, when Christ established his Kingdom and judges the nations and the dead, and rewards the servants and prophets.

It is by Jesus' own words that we shall be judged [John 12:48]. Why the ARK? What does it contain, represent ? The Covenant, the Ten Commandments [Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4; 1 Kings 8:9]. These are the same commandments Jesus asked us to keep to enter into Heaven [Matthew 19:17].

I hope people get it. This is how serious this is.

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OMC said:
Does it work? I mean, Is it accurate?
Click to expand...

First strike, wide path understanding of faith and faithing.
Second strike, at your presented level of claimed understanding, you should have known the correct day of the week Jesus died, you didn't.
Strike three, pretending not to have even heard of AI.

Your out.
 
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Watchman22 said:
First strike, wide path understanding of faith and faithing.
Second strike, at your presented level of claimed understanding, you should have known the correct day of the week Jesus died, you didn't.
Strike three, pretending not to have even heard of AI.

Your out.
Click to expand...
Your obviously not paying attention. Thats fine, go in peace brother.
 
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OMC said:
Scripture is explicit that the shadows were pointing forward to Christ, not to future ceremonies: “These are a shadow of things to come, but the body is Christ” (Col 2:17). The shadows have reached their fulfillment in Him; what remains is not the shadow but the ongoing reality of His priesthood, His covenant, and His Spirit.
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If you are saying that he will fulfill the remaining 3 feast days then we are in agreement.
The sabbath of the 7th day and the feast days are Gods appointed times given to Israel established before the creation of Israel.
There meanings are indeed pointing to Jesus. Perhaps we're saying the same thing but different words.
 
God-fearing said:
If you are saying that he will fulfill the remaining 3 feast days then we are in agreement.
The sabbath of the 7th day and the feast days are Gods appointed times given to Israel established before the creation of Israel.
There meanings are indeed pointing to Jesus. Perhaps we're saying the same thing but different words.
Click to expand...
you’re right to see the continuity in the feasts, but also the completion of their shadows in Christ — and yes, if you mean that the remaining three feasts (Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles) will reach their final fulfillment in Him, then we are indeed saying the same thing with different words.
 
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Does God have physical hands?
Feet? Legs? Arms?

No?

Then why would God need a chair?

And that Ark was a chair...,The Mercy Seat. (No back rest)
Cherabim covering it.....

Is God resting or working?

Will God ever truly rest?
 
OMC said:
Your obviously not paying attention. Thats fine, go in peace brother.
Click to expand...

I've been completely honest and upfront with you and this forum since the days of being in the trenches with Marianne and rosemary. My message has never varied.

Im not going to pretend to be your brother, when that has yet to be determined. God crossed our paths for a reason. I hope you were paying attention. And I really hope we are bothers when we meet on the other side, when the value of what I've brought to you and others is revealed.

U til then, selah.
 


"Jewish sources hold that the Ark remains hidden until the Moshiach (Messiah) comes and the Third, everlasting Temple is rebuilt. At that time, it will be uncovered and brought back to Jerusalem Chabad.orgChabad.org. This belief is central to Jewish eschatology and hope for the restoration of the Temple."


I remember watching a video a while back, that said, there were was an elevator that was built in the temple, to lower the Ark in case of an emergency. So, some believe it's buried in the temple mount some where.


 
kinda said:


"Jewish sources hold that the Ark remains hidden until the Moshiach (Messiah) comes and the Third, everlasting Temple is rebuilt. At that time, it will be uncovered and brought back to Jerusalem Chabad.orgChabad.org. This belief is central to Jewish eschatology and hope for the restoration of the Temple."


I remember watching a video a while back, that said, there were was an elevator that was built in the temple, to lower the Ark in case of an emergency. So, some believe it's buried in the temple mount some where.


Click to expand...
Jewish sources rightly preserve their ancient hope, but Scripture shows that the Ark’s purpose was fulfilled in Christ, and therefore any expectation of its future unveiling belongs to Judaism’s eschatology, not to the New Covenant; the true mercy seat is now Christ Himself (Rom. 3:25), and the true Temple is His body (John 2:21), so the restoration they await has already come in Him.
 
JohnDB said:
Does God have physical hands?
Feet? Legs? Arms?

No?

Then why would God need a chair?

And that Ark was a chair...,The Mercy Seat. (No back rest)
Cherabim covering it.....

Is God resting or working?

Will God ever truly rest?
Click to expand...

Arms legs and feet? .......body of Christ....his church.

Chair?......Throne?

Rest......he rest in his finished work.....Jesus

All in perspective I guess.
 
I think the bottom line is that it's a mystery, until God decides to bring into the public domain, it will remain an on going debate.

Some believe the Ark of the Covenant is gone and will not return. Interesting read on this site..


"The record from the Talmud indicates that the ark of the covenant was not ever in the second temple built after the return from the Babylonian captivity. (1) If the legend that Jeremiah took the ark to a secret cave in the mountains (2 Maccabees) wouldn't it have been returned to the 2nd temple once the Jews rebuilt the temple after the return from Babylon?"


"The Hebrew meaning in the OJB appears to be correct, that the ark would never be "made" again. If never to be made again, then doesn't that imply it was destroyed, and not simply lost? As it was never in the second temple, and as Jer. 3:16 says it would never be fashioned or made again, does that not confirm that it was destroyed when Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 BC?"


Jeremiah 3

14“Return, faithless people,” declares the Lord, “for I am your husband. I will choose you—one from a town and two from a clan—and bring you to Zion.

15Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding.

16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the Lord, “people will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.

17At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.
 
According to Second Maccabees, at the beginning of chapter 2


The records show that it was the prophet Jeremiah who [...] prompted by a divine message [...] gave orders that the Tent of Meeting and the ark should go with him. Then he went away to the mountain from the top of which Moses saw God's promised land. When he reached the mountain, Jeremiah found a cave-dwelling; he carried the tent, the ark, and the incense-altar into it, then blocked up the entrance. Some of his companions came to mark out the way, but were unable to find it. When Jeremiah learnt of this he reprimanded them. "The place shall remain unknown", he said, "until God finally gathers his people together and shows mercy to them. The Lord will bring these things to light again, and the glory of the Lord will appear with the cloud, as it was seen both in the time of Moses and when Solomon prayed that the shrine might be worthily consecrated."
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The "mountain from the top of which Moses saw God's promised land" would be Mount Nebo, located in what is now Jordan.


Samaritan tradition​


Samaritan tradition claims that the Ark of the Covenant had been kept at a sanctuary on Mt. Gerizim.


The physical ark of the Old Testament​



In the New Testament, the Ark is mentioned in the Letter to the Hebrews and the Revelation to St. John. Hebrews 9:4 states that the Ark contained "the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant." Revelation 11:19 says the prophet saw God's temple in heaven opened, "and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple."

According to the Book of Maccabees​


The Book of 2 Maccabees 2:4–10, written around 100 B.C. claims that the prophet Jeremiah, following “being warned by God" before the Babylonian invasion, took the Ark, the Tabernacle, and the Altar of Incense, and buried them in a cave, informing those of his followers who wished to find the place that it should remain unknown "until the time that God should gather His people again together, and receive them unto mercy."

The Talmud in Yoma suggests that the Ark was removed from the Temple towards the end of the era of the First Temple and the Second Temple never housed it. According to one view, it was taken to Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem in 587 BCE, exiling King Jeconiah along with the upper classes.


Another perspective proposes that Josiah, king of Judah, hid the Ark in anticipation of the Temple's destruction. Where it was hidden remains uncertain. One account in the Talmud<a mentions a priest's suspicion of a tampered stone in a chamber designated for wood storage, hinting at the Ark's concealment.


Alternatively, it has been suggested that the Ark remained underground in the Holy of Holies. Some of the Chazal, including the Radak and Maimonides, propose that Solomon designed tunnels beneath the Temple to safeguard the Ark that Josiah later used. Attempts to excavate this area have yielded little due to political sensitivities.


An opinion found in the II Maccabees 2:4-10, asserts that Jeremiah hid the Ark and other sacred items in a cave on Mount Nebo (now in Jordan), anticipating the Neo-Babylonian invasion.


-wiki
 
OMC said:
Scripture shows no barrier to its discovery, yet it also teaches that the Ark’s past purpose is fulfilled and no longer central to God’s covenant (Jer 3:16), so its appearance today would verify history but add nothing to salvation or revelation.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but it would clarify if the 3rd Temple will be built and reveal the coming Antichrist.
 
Watchman22 said:
First strike, wide path understanding of faith and faithing.
Second strike, at your presented level of claimed understanding, you should have known the correct day of the week Jesus died, you didn't.
Strike three, pretending not to have even heard of AI.

Your out.
Click to expand...
Jesus died on a Wednesday of course. It was the same day the Passover meal was eaten (Nisan 15).
Matt 26:17-19 was on the 14th when the meal was prepared. Verse 20 and on was Nisan 15 was when it was eaten.
Remember back then a new day started at sunset not at midnight.
Study the account of the first Passover when the Israelites left Egypt. It's in Exo 12.

On the 10th day of the first month of the year a yearling male kid or lamb was to be separated from the flock. If you don't have one then borrow one. They fed it by hand until Nisan 14 which started at even (sunset). The animal was slaughtered and cooked whole. On the same day the unleavened bread and bitter herb sop were made. Then at sunset the meal was eaten. This would be at the start of Nisan 15.

In 31 AD, the year our Lord was crucified, Nisan 15 fell on a Wednesday that year. Look it up.
Nisan 14 kill and cook the Passover lamb, make the unleavened bread and sop.
Nisan 15 the meal was eaten. The main differences between the Last Supper and the first Passover were these:
The Last Supper was when the communion service was instituted by Jesus.
As far as I know they did not put blood on the door posts.
They sat down to eat. Took off their shoes, washed their feet

Anyway Jesus said He would be in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt 12:40).
You cannot get 3 days and 3 nights from a Friday crucifixion.
Even if you held with a non-biblical view that even a partial day can be counted as a full day.
Just look at it:
Friday evening before sunset Jesus is buried - People want to count this as a full 12 hr day - 1st day
Friday sunset (the beginning of the sabbath) - a full 12 hr night - 1st night
Saturday day (from sunrise to sunset) - 2nd day
Then a part of Saturday night (not even the full 12 hrs of night because the tomb was already empty when the women got there before sunrise - 2nd night

You're missing a full day and night even taking into account the false teachings that parts of a day or night were counted as full days and nights.

Now put the crucifixion in it's proper place - Nisan 15, 31 AD was on a Wednesday. "Dated" holidays are never on the same day of the week year after year. Look at your birthday, New Years, 4th of July, Christmas, Halloween. All dated holidays and NEVER on the same day of the week year after year.

Anyway:
Tuesday Nisan 14 - Prepare the meal
Wednesday Nisan 15 - Eat the meal, institute the communal service, say a few words to His disciples, go to the Garden of
Gethsemane. Get arrested and taken to the priests, have an illegal trial by night (still on Nisan 15). Mocked, beaten and tortured
until sunrise. Taken to Pilate then Herod then back to Pilate again. Crucified and buried. All of this was on Nisan 15
Thursday Nisan 16 (from sunset to sunrise) - 1st full night in the tomb
Thursday Nisan 16 (sunrise to sunset) - 1st full day
(Note that Nisan 16 was considered to be a "High Sabbath" - look it up - and always fell on the day after the Passover meal was
eaten)
Friday Nisan 17 (Preparation Day) (from even to even - a full 24 hr period) Jesus' followers prepared the herbs and spices for His
burial - 2nd full night and day
7th day sabbath Nisan 18 - 3rd full night and day.
Sunday Nisan 19 - Resurrected sometime before sunrise AFTER His 3 full days and nights in the grave.
 
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Davidstarr said:
Jesus died on a Wednesday of course. It was the same day the Passover meal was eaten (Nisan 15).
Matt 26:17-19 was on the 14th when the meal was prepared. Verse 20 and on was Nisan 15 was when it was eaten.
Remember back then a new day started at sunset not at midnight.
Study the account of the first Passover when the Israelites left Egypt. It's in Exo 12.

On the 10th day of the first month of the year a yearling male kid or lamb was to be separated from the flock. If you don't have one then borrow one. They fed it by hand until Nisan 14 which started at even (sunset). The animal was slaughtered and cooked whole. On the same day the unleavened bread and bitter herb sop were made. Then at sunset the meal was eaten. This would be at the start of Nisan 15.

In 31 AD, the year our Lord was crucified, Nisan 15 fell on a Wednesday that year. Look it up.
Nisan 14 kill and cook the Passover lamb, make the unleavened bread and sop.
Nisan 15 the meal was eaten. The main differences between the Last Supper and the first Passover were these:
The Last Supper was when the communion service was instituted by Jesus.
As far as I know they did not put blood on the door posts.
They sat down to eat. Took off their shoes, washed their feet

Anyway Jesus said He would be in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt 12:40).
You cannot get 3 days and 3 nights from a Friday crucifixion.
Even if you held with a non-biblical view that even a partial day can be counted as a full day.
Just look at it:
Friday evening before sunset Jesus is buried - People want to count this as a full 12 hr day - 1st day
Friday sunset (the beginning of the sabbath) - a full 12 hr night - 1st night
Saturday day (from sunrise to sunset) - 2nd day
Then a part of Saturday night (not even the full 12 hrs of night because the tomb was already empty when the women got there before sunrise - 2nd night

You're missing a full day and night even taking into account the false teachings that parts of a day or night were counted as full days and nights.

Now put the crucifixion in it's proper place - Nisan 15, 31 AD was on a Wednesday. "Dated" holidays are never on the same day of the week year after year. Look at your birthday, New Years, 4th of July, Christmas, Halloween. All dated holidays and NEVER on the same day of the week year after year.

Anyway:
Tuesday Nisan 14 - Prepare the meal
Wednesday Nisan 15 - Eat the meal, institute the communal service, say a few words to His disciples, go to the Garden of
Gethsemane. Get arrested and taken to the priests, have an illegal trial by night (still on Nisan 15). Mocked, beaten and tortured
until sunrise. Taken to Pilate then Herod then back to Pilate again. Crucified and buried. All of this was on Nisan 15
Thursday Nisan 16 (from sunset to sunrise) - 1st full night in the tomb
Thursday Nisan 16 (sunrise to sunset) - 1st full day
(Note that Nisan 16 was considered to be a "High Sabbath" - look it up - and always fell on the day after the Passover meal was
eaten)
Friday Nisan 17 (Preparation Day) (from even to even - a full 24 hr period) Jesus' followers prepared the herbs and spices for His
burial - 2nd full night and day
7th day sabbath Nisan 18 - 3rd full night and day.
Sunday Nisan 19 - Resurrected sometime before sunrise AFTER His 3 full days and nights in the grave.
Click to expand...

Your preaching to the choir my friend, fantastic job.
I've been taught everything your presented to the tee. I wonder if we have had the same instructor at some point?

I learned this from Dr.Scott. Any connection? If not, who taught you this if you don't mind me asking.
 
Davidstarr said:
Jesus died on a Wednesday of course. It was the same day the Passover meal was eaten (Nisan 15).
Matt 26:17-19 was on the 14th when the meal was prepared. Verse 20 and on was Nisan 15 was when it was eaten.
Remember back then a new day started at sunset not at midnight.
Study the account of the first Passover when the Israelites left Egypt. It's in Exo 12.

On the 10th day of the first month of the year a yearling male kid or lamb was to be separated from the flock. If you don't have one then borrow one. They fed it by hand until Nisan 14 which started at even (sunset). The animal was slaughtered and cooked whole. On the same day the unleavened bread and bitter herb sop were made. Then at sunset the meal was eaten. This would be at the start of Nisan 15.

In 31 AD, the year our Lord was crucified, Nisan 15 fell on a Wednesday that year. Look it up.
Nisan 14 kill and cook the Passover lamb, make the unleavened bread and sop.
Nisan 15 the meal was eaten. The main differences between the Last Supper and the first Passover were these:
The Last Supper was when the communion service was instituted by Jesus.
As far as I know they did not put blood on the door posts.
They sat down to eat. Took off their shoes, washed their feet

Anyway Jesus said He would be in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt 12:40).
You cannot get 3 days and 3 nights from a Friday crucifixion.
Even if you held with a non-biblical view that even a partial day can be counted as a full day.
Just look at it:
Friday evening before sunset Jesus is buried - People want to count this as a full 12 hr day - 1st day
Friday sunset (the beginning of the sabbath) - a full 12 hr night - 1st night
Saturday day (from sunrise to sunset) - 2nd day
Then a part of Saturday night (not even the full 12 hrs of night because the tomb was already empty when the women got there before sunrise - 2nd night

You're missing a full day and night even taking into account the false teachings that parts of a day or night were counted as full days and nights.

Now put the crucifixion in it's proper place - Nisan 15, 31 AD was on a Wednesday. "Dated" holidays are never on the same day of the week year after year. Look at your birthday, New Years, 4th of July, Christmas, Halloween. All dated holidays and NEVER on the same day of the week year after year.

Anyway:
Tuesday Nisan 14 - Prepare the meal
Wednesday Nisan 15 - Eat the meal, institute the communal service, say a few words to His disciples, go to the Garden of
Gethsemane. Get arrested and taken to the priests, have an illegal trial by night (still on Nisan 15). Mocked, beaten and tortured
until sunrise. Taken to Pilate then Herod then back to Pilate again. Crucified and buried. All of this was on Nisan 15
Thursday Nisan 16 (from sunset to sunrise) - 1st full night in the tomb
Thursday Nisan 16 (sunrise to sunset) - 1st full day
(Note that Nisan 16 was considered to be a "High Sabbath" - look it up - and always fell on the day after the Passover meal was
eaten)
Friday Nisan 17 (Preparation Day) (from even to even - a full 24 hr period) Jesus' followers prepared the herbs and spices for His
burial - 2nd full night and day
7th day sabbath Nisan 18 - 3rd full night and day.
Sunday Nisan 19 - Resurrected sometime before sunrise AFTER His 3 full days and nights in the grave.
Click to expand...
the timeline of Jesus’ death must be built from the explicit statements of Scripture, not from later calendrical reconstructions, astronomical assumptions, or harmonizations that require overriding the Gospel writers’ own time‑markers.
When we apply that rule, the Wednesday‑crucifixion model collapses—not because the math is wrong, but because it contradicts the plain, repeated, narrative statements of the inspired text.

Here is the core issue: every Gospel writer identifies Jesus’ death as occurring on “the Preparation Day,” the day before the Sabbath. That is the decisive anchor. Mark says it (15:42), Luke says it (23:54), Matthew says it (27:62), and John says it (19:31).
And I cannot override four independent witnesses.
The Wednesday model requires redefining “Preparation Day” into something it never means in Scripture.
In the Torah, in the Gospels, and in Second Temple usage, “Preparation Day” is the day before the weekly Sabbath.
Not the day before a festival.
Not the day before a “high day.”
The day before the seventh‑day Sabbath.
That alone places the crucifixion on Friday.

Second, your reconstruction requires the Last Supper to be the Passover meal eaten on Nisan 15.
But the Gospels explicitly say the disciples asked Jesus on the day the Passover lamb was sacrificed where to prepare the meal.
That is Nisan 14, not 15.
The meal they ate was not the Exodus Passover; it was the covenant meal Jesus instituted before the official Passover.
John confirms this by stating that the Jewish leaders had not yet eaten the Passover when Jesus was arrested (John 18:28).
A Wednesday crucifixion requires Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to be describing different calendars. As a scriptural theologian, I cannot accept that.

Third, the “three days and three nights” of Matthew 12:40 is an idiom, not a stopwatch.
The same idiom is used in Esther, in Samuel, and in rabbinic literature to refer to any sequence that includes part of three days.
Jesus Himself interprets His own prophecy when He says He will rise “on the third day.” Not “after three full days.” Not “after 72 hours.” “On the third day.”
That is the inspired interpretation of His own words.
A Wednesday crucifixion requires rejecting Jesus’ own explanation of His prophecy.

Fourth, your reconstruction depends on the year AD 31.
But Luke anchors Jesus’ ministry to the fifteenth year of Tiberius, which places the crucifixion in AD 30 or 33 depending on inclusive or exclusive reckoning.
AD 31 does not fit Luke’s inspired chronology.
Again, as a scriptural theologian I cannot override Luke’s historical anchor with astronomical tables.

So the issue is not whether your timeline is clever—it is.
The issue is that it requires overriding the plain statements of Scripture in favor of a modern calendrical reconstruction.
A scriptural theologian cannot do that.
The inspired text gives us the sequence: Preparation Day death, Sabbath rest, first‑day resurrection.
That is Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
The Wednesday model requires redefining terms, splitting calendars, and contradicting the evangelists.
The Friday model requires none of that. It simply accepts the text as written.
 
BigO25 said:
The. Book of Revelation discusses the covenant. But there is a mixture of conflicting interpretations. What is your opinion and determine why you think so.
Click to expand...
please provide the text in Revelation to which you are speaking about. Thank you,
 
CS1 said:
please provide the text in Revelation to which you are speaking about. Thank you,
Click to expand...
Most interpretations become confused because they treat it as a free‑floating prophecy rather than reading it through the covenantal categories the book itself uses.
Revelation is saturated with the language, structure, and sanctions of Deuteronomy’s covenant—blessings, curses, witnesses, lawsuit imagery, temple imagery, martyr‑testimony, and covenant judgment.
The reason interpretations conflict is that many readers impose external systems—especially futurist or dispensational frameworks—onto a text that is already operating within its own covenant architecture.
When I read Revelation on its own terms, I see a divine lawsuit against covenant breakers, a vindication of the faithful remnant, and the unveiling of Christ as the executor of God’s covenant judgments.
I think this because the book repeatedly signals its covenant frame: the seven churches mirror covenant assemblies, the seals and trumpets mirror covenant curses, the bowls mirror covenant plagues, and the final visions mirror covenant renewal.
Revelation is not chaos; it is covenant drama.
And the confusion arises whenever interpreters detach the book from the covenant categories the text itself is built upon.
 
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