Are you a monergist or a synergist?

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Which are you? Please vote only once and simply add 1 to the current total for what you choose.

  • Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
  • Poll closed .
Paul answers your question specifically in Rom. 2:4, "Or do you show contempt for the riches of God's kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that His kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?"
Or godly sorrow.

"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."
 
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I don't believe your example is a correct depiction of the estate of the natural man.
thats ok. You do not have to believe it for it to be true
If you had said you were out on the ocean in a storm and unconscious, you would have an accurate assessment of the natural man. What would you do in that case?
Nope. because a living breathign man is not unconscious.

Both of them are threatened with death. One physical. one eternal.

now if your person was not living or breathing you may have a point..
 
Perhaps. Although this was said of the Jews "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit". So, God simply working in someone's life doesn't equate to understanding. In fact, one could say that creation itself ministers God's truth to everyone so that no man is innocent before God. Indeed, condemned is the starting point of every soul.
Sure, but knowing that God exists through creation and conscience doesn't negate his natural estate.

My question still stands: who is God describing in Romans 3:10 and following?

Also, in reference to Romans 8:7, can fallen natural man ever operate in anything other than the carnal mind?
 
Paul answers your question specifically in Rom. 2:4, "Or do you show contempt for the riches of God's kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that His kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?"
Sure they show contempt. They operate according to the carnal mind. My question, which everyone refuses to answer, is what is the cause of the natural man to operate according to the spiritual mind and not the carnal mind?
 
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thats ok. You do not have to believe it for it to be true

Nope. because a living breathign man is not unconscious.

Both of them are threatened with death. One physical. one eternal.

now if your person was not living or breathing you may have a point..
But the natural man is dead in his trespasses and sins. That's why your analogy is inaccurate.
 
Sure, but knowing that God exists through creation and conscience doesn't negate his natural estate.

My question still stands: who is God describing in Romans 3:10 and following?

Also, in reference to Romans 8:7, can fallen natural man ever operate in anything other than the carnal mind?
Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
From Adam and Eve to You and Me, ALL have sinned!!!
 
Also, in reference to Romans 8:7, can fallen natural man ever operate in anything other than the carnal mind?
No. He has authority only over the mind of his soul and his flesh. This is why man cannot save himself through the will of his soul or flesh. He can only cease to resist God. Thus his spirit can then respond to the Holy Spirit.
 
Ha! I just realized you're not even the poster I replied to: @Journey_man

I'm not sure how you came into the discussion.
When we post in public, we're open to the public. If we want to keep it private, there's a place on site for that too.

However, perhaps you can show me where this is stated in scripture: "because Esau had inherited Adam's hatred of God". This is something Journey_man wrote. Where does it say Adam hated God?
1st. By your silence, you acknowledge you misquoted Scripture. Luke does not say, Adam, the son of God. But rather Adam, which was the son of God.

The change makes all the difference between a man that was a son of God, vs a man that remains the son of God...

2nd. Also by your silence on showing how I had not given Scripture proving my point, then you acknowledge the Scripture proves the point.

3rd. Scripture does not always specifically state what Scripture teaches. That's why we must study all of Scripture together, in order to teach all that Scripture says.

Jhn 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If we are keeping His commandments, we are loving the Lord. And so, if we break His commandments, we are not loving the Lord, but hating Him.

Mat 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We are either loving or hating God. Scripture does not allow for both at the same time. We cannot be keeping His commandments by transgressing them. Nor can we be keeping some of His commandments, while transgressing others:

Jas 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Conclusion: If we are keeping His commandments, we are loving Him. If we are transgressing His commandment, we are hating Him.

When Adam was transgressing His commandment, Adam was hating the Lord. Whether Adam later repented is not revealed in Scripture, but only that he did not repent in the garden when driven out by the Lord.

We can also judge the manner of Adam's transgression, that he believed a lie about God's goodness, and instead followed the one that hated Him most, and lies about God's own love for Adam, and all people created in His own image:

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And finally we have Jesus' own testimony about them that betray Him for no reason:

Jhn 15:24
hey hated me without a cause.


Adam was the first man to hate the Lord without cause, when transgressing His commandment by the lie, that God did not love Adam.
Certainly he was afraid of God, because he hid from Him.
After the transgression, we all ought to fear the Lord's judgment and wrath:

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

Deu 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The Scripture is speaking of all men created in His image, and His sons that transgress Him, without repect of persons.

Some transgressors however learn not to fear the Lord's righteous and equal judgment of our works. I suppose some would believe, that our own transgression is not so bad as others, nor are we hating the Lord but still loving Him, while sinning against Him without cause...

But that was because Adam's view had moved from being a spirit clothed in flesh - completely compatible with God - to a man of flesh God could destroy.
To Adam the transgressor, that God certainly did judge dead to the Spirit, in the day he ate thereof.

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If anyone seeks to move the day of death for sin to a later time, in order to preserve Adam's, and our own, spiritual life with God when transgressing Him, then that's another change to Scripture for vain personal purposes.
Consider also that "righteous Abel" came out of both Adam and Eve after the fall.
True. After Cain, whose works were evil, and hated his brother.

1Jo 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

And Abel was born before Seth, through whom the seed of Christ came in the flesh.

Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.


And so, we see that natural seed of man has nothing to do with the righteousness nor evil of the parent nor offspring, but only the works of a man justifies or condemns us with God.

Cain is evil because his works are evil, and Abel is righteous because he does righteousness.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.



If man and woman were completely corrupt, how could a righteous man come from their union?
As Scripture shows, all flesh is natural, but only the heart is pure or corrupt to do good or evil.

Mat 15:17
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.


And once again, we don't know if Adam ever repented, whether immediately or later in life. He did however raise three sons, of which we know only one was an evil doer.

And, here's the big one, why not simply wipe out Adam and Woman and start over? If the sentence of death was certain because of sin, then just wipe the board and make a new man and woman. I mean, how cheap is dirt?
Already answered. If you want to go back and read it, then I'd be glad to see your own response to it.

Otherwise, ideological or philosophical arguments have no place with God's will and works:

Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 
My question still stands: who is God describing in Romans 3:10 and following?
Sorry, missed this.

This closes out the passage: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

So, the passage includes anyone who has "flesh".
 
When we post in public, we're open to the public. If we want to keep it private, there's a place on site for that too.


1st. By your silence, you acknowledge you misquoted Scripture. Luke does not say, Adam, the son of God. But rather Adam, which was the son of God.

The change makes all the difference between a man that was a son of God, vs a man that remains the son of God...

2nd. Also by your silence on showing how I had not given Scripture proving my point, then you acknowledge the Scripture proves the point.

3rd. Scripture does not always specifically state what Scripture teaches. That's why we must study all of Scripture together, in order to teach all that Scripture says.

Jhn 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If we are keeping His commandments, we are loving the Lord. And so, if we break His commandments, we are not loving the Lord, but hating Him.

Mat 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We are either loving or hating God. Scripture does not allow for both at the same time. We cannot be keeping His commandments by transgressing them. Nor can we be keeping some of His commandments, while transgressing others:

Jas 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Conclusion: If we are keeping His commandments, we are loving Him. If we are transgressing His commandment, we are hating Him.

When Adam was transgressing His commandment, Adam was hating the Lord. Whether Adam later repented is not revealed in Scripture, but only that he did not repent in the garden when driven out by the Lord.

We can also judge the manner of Adam's transgression, that he believed a lie about God's goodness, and instead followed the one that hated Him most, and lies about God's own love for Adam, and all people created in His own image:

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And finally we have Jesus' own testimony about them that betray Him for no reason:

Jhn 15:24
hey hated me without a cause.


Adam was the first man to hate the Lord without cause, when transgressing His commandment by the lie, that God did not love Adam.

After the transgression, we all ought to fear the Lord's judgment and wrath:

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

Deu 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The Scripture is speaking of all men created in His image, and His sons that transgress Him, without repect of persons.

Some transgressors however learn not to fear the Lord's righteous and equal judgment of our works. I suppose some would believe, that our own transgression is not so bad as others, nor are we hating the Lord but still loving Him, while sinning against Him without cause...


To Adam the transgressor, that God certainly did judge dead to the Spirit, in the day he ate thereof.

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


If anyone seeks to move the day of death for sin to a later time, in order to preserve Adam's, and our own, spiritual life with God when transgressing Him, then that's another change to Scripture for vain personal purposes.

True. After Cain, whose works were evil, and hated his brother.

1Jo 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

And Abel was born before Seth, through whom the seed of Christ came in the flesh.

Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.


And so, we see that natural seed of man has nothing to do with the righteousness nor evil of the parent nor offspring, but only the works of a man justifies or condemns us with God.

Cain is evil because his works are evil, and Abel is righteous because he does righteousness.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.




As Scripture shows, all flesh is natural, but only the heart is pure or corrupt to do good or evil.

Mat 15:17
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.


And once again, we don't know if Adam ever repented, whether immediately or later in life. He did however raise three sons, of which we know only one was an evil doer.


Already answered. If you want to go back and read it, then I'd be glad to see your own response to it.

Otherwise, ideological or philosophical arguments have no place with God's will and works:

Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
I've moved on from your inquiry. If you have questions for me to help you to understand the scriptures you can ask me and I'll help you.
 
Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
From Adam and Eve to You and Me, ALL have sinned!!!
Regarding your reference to Romans 8:7. The term "Natural Man" only appears once. I can only suppose that this Natural Man walks carnally (or in the flesh). This Natural Man cannot accept the things of God (Spiritual) because he walks in the flesh and is spiritually igrorant.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
Regarding your reference to Romans 8:7. The term "Natural Man" only appears once. I can only suppose that this Natural Man walks carnally (or in the flesh). This Natural Man cannot accept the things of God (Spiritual) because he walks in the flesh and is spiritually igrorant.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
yes.. so the things we as believers know and understand and are learning is not natural to him

But death, hell, creation and salvation is readily available to him ., for God has shown it to them so they have no excuse
 
Adam showed he had faith by allowing God to clothe him, as did his wife.
He certainly was humble enough.

Mat 5:45
For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

However, if Adam had already repented from the heart,. immediately after being driven from the garden for unrepentance, then why was Adam still kept out of the garden?

Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The scripture does not say, that the Cheribums did not allow any man to enter, but only that the way was kept by them with flaming sword. We could say the sword flamed for a light to the garden...

Gen 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


There's no reason to believe enoch did not walk with God in the garden of Eden, and was taken away from there. The onmly reason no man can enter and eat in the garden of Eden today, is because it also was swept away in the flood.

In any case, I see no Scripture that justified Adam repenting or not repenting from his transgression. God keeps Scripture silent, on whether Adam, that was the son of God, is now in the presence of the Lord, or in hell with the rich man, who was a son of Abraham.

Only a guess, or fabricated personal doctrine would try to say one way or the other, but doesn't prove anything other than what someone wants to personally believe for ourselves alone...
 
Sure they show contempt. They operate according to the carnal mind. My question, which everyone refuses to answer, is what is the cause of the natural man to operate according to the spiritual mind and not the carnal mind?
Free will.
Personally, I have seen the goodness and love of God, and I wanted it...so I obeyed the means of acquiring that life.
 
yes they can not do spiritual things

They can however chose to admit they are lost. and recieve Gods grace.
How could a spiritually dead person know they are spiritually dead, unless God does a work in them first?

I have literally spoken with these type people multiple times. They don’t believe they’ve done anything that needs forgiveness.

They believe their good deeds outweigh any potential bad things they may have done, and don’t even comprehend that that they are in spiritual need from Christ.

This is how we all are, UNTIL God does a work in us.
 
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No. He has authority only over the mind of his soul and his flesh. This is why man cannot save himself through the will of his soul or flesh. He can only cease to resist God. Thus his spirit can then respond to the Holy Spirit.
Now we're getting somewhere. How can he cease from resisting when his carnal mind is at enmity with God? What occurs to change this reality?
 
Sorry, missed this.

This closes out the passage: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

So, the passage includes anyone who has "flesh".
Thanks. So how does someone in this condition go from this reality to seeking God, doing good, etc?