Rome's challenge.
- Thread starter TMS
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You are right to say the Sabbath was not a command at creation.
Genesis never says, “And God commanded Adam to keep the seventh day.”
What it says is far more subtle and far more beautiful: God rested, God blessed the day, and God sanctified it.
That is gift‑language, not law‑language.
But hear me carefully — and I say this as one who has lived forty years inside the text — a gift is not automatically a universal mandate. The author of Hebrews is not arguing, “Because God rested, therefore you must keep the Sabbath.”
He is arguing, “Because God rested, that rest becomes the pattern of the rest offered in Christ.”
The creation rest is the prototype, not the prescription.
The danger here is an attitude I must gently correct: when we take a divine gift and elevate it into a universal requirement without the text itself doing so, we are no longer submitting to Scripture — we are shaping it.
The Sabbath was made for man, yes, but Jesus Himself used that truth to correct legalism, not to impose creation‑week observance on the church.
The author of Hebrews uses creation rest to explain God’s rest, not to reinstate Edenic Sabbath‑keeping.
A gift at creation does not become a command in the new covenant unless the text itself makes it so.
Hebrews does not. Jesus does not. Paul does not.
The Sabbath remains a gift — but the rest it points to is fulfilled in Christ, not in calendar observance.
Resting in Jesus is the key.
But if you love Jesus you will keep His commandments. Faith without works is dead. Keeping the Sabbath is not a work but a Joy. It is A blessing and a delight that you are missing out on.
God blessed the 7th day.. not every, or any day but specifically the 7th day.
And hallowed it. Or sanctified it.
God can take His blessing off this day or remove the sanctity of it, so it is no longer set aside. BUT there is no record of a change.
Obedience was always a sign of God's faith people.
We are not to keep any laws or commands to save ourselves. But out of love for God we will want to obey His laws and commands.
1Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Brother, loving Jesus does produce obedience — but obedience must follow what He commands, not what we assume He must have commanded. The Sabbath was blessed and sanctified at creation, yes, but Scripture never turns that blessing into a universal command for all peoples in all covenants.
It was a gift, not a requirement. Israel was commanded to keep it; the church never was.
And when you say keeping the Sabbath is “not a work but a joy,” I believe you — but joy does not create obligation. A gift can be cherished without being imposed.
You are treating the Sabbath as the measure of love, when Scripture treats Christ Himself as the measure of love.
John tells us to keep God’s commandments, but neither John nor Jesus ever re‑imposes the seventh‑day Sabbath on the church.
If you keep it as a delight, keep it.
But do not turn your delight into a doctrine the apostles never gave.
The rest God blessed at creation points to the greater rest found in Christ — and that rest is the command for every believer.
The gift was a sanctified day.
A day set aside as holy..
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
Sanctified = H6942
Original: קדשׁ
BDB Definition:
to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate
(Qal)
to be set apart, be consecrated
to be hallowed
consecrated, tabooed
(Niphal)
to show oneself sacred or majestic
to be honoured, be treated as sacred
to be holy
(Piel)
to set apart as sacred, consecrate, dedicate
to observe as holy, keep sacred
to honour as sacred, hallow
to consecrate
(Pual)
to be consecrated
consecrated, dedicated
(Hiphil)
to set apart, devote, consecrate
to regard or treat as sacred or hallow
to consecrate
(Hithpael)
to keep oneself apart or separate
to cause Himself to be hallowed (of God)
to be observed as holy
to consecrate oneself
Notice how the word means to set aside, and seperate. To consecrate, to observe as holy.
Scripture is clearly saying this day was sanctified for holy use. You are not submitting to Scripture when you refuse the clear words... "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: ".
When was this 24 hour day unsanctified?
Brother, let me answer you briefly but without surrendering the text.
Genesis 2:3 absolutely says the seventh day was sanctified — set apart by God Himself.
But sanctification of a day does not automatically mean a command for humanity to observe it.
The text never says Adam kept it, never commands him to keep it, and never presents the sanctified day as a universal obligation.
A thing can remain sanctified in God’s purpose without becoming a required practice for every covenant.
The seventh day was sanctified, yes — but Scripture never says it was ever “unsanctified,” because sanctification is God’s act toward the day, not a command binding all people.
The question is not “When was the day unsanctified?” but “When was the day commanded?”
And the first command appears at Sinai, not Eden.
That is the distinction the text itself forces.
Jesus said
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Bearing the cross can be hard and painful, but because of your love for Jesus you do it.
We should count it a Joy to suffer for Jesus.
True faith and trust in Jesus will result in keeping all His commandments because they are a moral example of His character.
God is Love. And which of the 10 commandments are not an expression of that love?
Sin is the opposite of God's loving character. And sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
The reason is because not all of the 10 commandments are mentioned before Mt Sinai. But nobody argues about these commandments.. thou shalt not commit adultery wasn't commanded, But it was a sin.
And when the 4th command was written God said REMEMBER.
They must of forgotten it.
Or it must have been already in place.
You do not say remember if it was never a day to keep holy before that time...
Remember the sabbath day.
“Remember” in Exodus 20 does not mean the Sabbath was already a commanded practice. Scripture uses remember for new commands all the time. It means, “Do not forget what I am telling you now.” Not, “You used to keep this.”
Adultery was sin before Sinai because it is a moral law rooted in God’s character.But the Sabbath is a covenant sign (Exodus 31:13), and covenant signs do not exist before the covenant.
So the simple answer is:
The Sabbath day was sanctified at creation, but it was not commanded until Sinai.
You have a difficulty with your interpretation of Galatians 5:18.
Here is the verse again.
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18 does not say "not under the law's condemnation".
Can you see that you are changing what Galatians 5:18 is clearly saying?
Did you know that the Catholic Church reads Galatians 5:18 the same way that you do, TMS.
Galatians 5:18 ("But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law") as meaning that the Christian is liberated
from the bondage of the ritual and judicial elements of the Mosaic Law (such as mandatory circumcision), entering
instead into the freedom and grace of the Catholic Answers Magazine new life in Christ. [1, 2, 3]
The Catholic Church and your church are deeply related because you read the scripture the same way.
All I do is read the plain text.
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Will AI support the plain reading of the text?
What the Verse Says
- The Text: The verse reads, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
- The Law: In this letter, Paul uses "the law" to refer to the Mosaic covenant and the commandments established at Mt Sinai.
You are in lock step with the Catholic Church which is the mother of Harlots.
An interesting question you have asked.
Your enemy is the Catholic Church but they enforce the ten commandments the same as your church does.
My church ignores the law and more specifically the ten commandments.
The Jesuits are the warriors of the Catholic Church and they read the scripture the way you do.
This puzzles me.
You look the same, you talk the same and you walk the same way.
You are a daughter church of the Harlot.
Your church ignores the law? Especially the 10 commandments? How do you survive when you kill each other, steal from each other, rap each other's children?
Do you throw your 1st born to the flames of Chemosh?
Are not these some of the precepts of the 10 commandments?
Obviously you did not read Galatians 5.
Galatians 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love
serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Love does not kill and love does not steal and the whole law was fulfilled by Jesus.
Do you love your neighbor or do you hurt and condemn everyone else but the members of your church?
You were called to freedom from the written law of Mt Sinai as were the Hebrews.
The law cannot free you from it's bondage, slavery, the deeds of the flesh, the law just condemns.
The law does not grant righteousness and the flesh cannot obey that law, we put no confidence in our flesh.
One word matters LOVE.
One faith matters JESUS CHRIST.
Will you boast in Jesus or the sabbath day?
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Don't twist these verses.
Rom 3:31 KJV Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 7:12-14
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Don't twist these verses.
Jas 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Let the Holy Spirit lead you not AI.
AI is a cumulative expression of the online information. And the majority were wrong in past. Jesus said the majority will be wrong at the end.
You can follow AI and the majority but I will follow the Spirit.
You don't have ears to hear. You are not willing to see the light.No thanks, I have the best link in town
The you tube videos are about nature and true life stories.
They are not a lie. The pharisees refused to see the truth because of their tradition and pride. The Jehovah Witnesses refuse to read or accept books or anything that might teach them new light.
It isn't the people that realize they have a need but those that refuse to see that they need, which are worse off.
Those that are so sure of their position will not hear the small voice of God.
But those that are "poor in spirit" are the blessed.
Mat 5:2-3
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That applies to me to.
no one has said the law has any power.
No power to save and no power to give us righteousness.
Is that clear, I'll say it again ...the law can not save me or anyone".
But do we make void the law?
NO.
Rom 7:7-8
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:11-13
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
The law points out sin.
Sin = death.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
It reveals sin. No law = no sin..
This beautiful principle shows us our need for a Saviour by revealing our true condition before a holy God.
Do you need the Loving mercy of Jesus...
You must be guilty of sin.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20
Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 4:15
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:13
Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:24
Love is very important. God is Love.
Jesus is essential but love and Jesus do not make the Law void. The save us from the transgression of the law.
Jesus by love came to save us from sin.
Sin is the transgression of the law..
No law = no need for Jesus.
That is exactly how the Catholic Church explains the role of the law.
The Catholic Church and your church both misunderstood the context in Romans.
The context specifically states that Gentiles were never and are not under the law.
Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law
to themselves.
The text (Romans 2:14) tells you that the Gentiles were not under the law (Exodus 20).
The Catholic Church affirms that Christians are bound by the moral obligations of the Ten Commandments, but it does not
base this obligation on Romans 2:14 specifically. Instead, it teaches that the Ten Commandments express the natural law,
and that Jesus Christ reaffirmed and elevated them in the New Testament.
See TMS, you state exactly what the Catholic Church states.
I reject out of hand a legal set of commandments that you call moral and eternal.
The ten commandments and other ceremonial laws appear in the letters of the N.T.
There is no division in the law itself and there never was.
Catholics and yourself see a sharp division in what is moral (natural) and eternal law.
You peddle the Catholic doctrine all the time.
No one could ever reasonably assume there is a natural law of the sabbath day or of coveting.
There is no record in human history of a law against coveting and there is nothing moral or natural about, the tenth
commandment.
Add to that what Jesus said in Matthew 5.
Matthew 5:27-28
You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman
with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Jesus condemned the very thoughts a person has which completely surpasses the written law in condemnation.
The error; I have never committed the physical act of adultery therefore, I am obedient to the eternal law?
What you miss is obedience to the law results in condemnation because no one can adequately control, their own
thought processes.
You have a strange paradox.
On the one hand you say you ignore the law especially the 10 commandments yet on the other hand you acknowledge that the law of love INCLUDES the 10 commandments.
Rom 13:9 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
The phrase "it is briefly comprehended" in the original Greek (anakephalaioō) means "gather together into one", "to condense into a summary".
The command to "love your neighbor" includes the last 6 of the 10 commandments.
So why wouldn't the command to "love God with all your might" not also include the 1st 4?
Do you claim to love god yet you curse Him? Worship idols?
ONE law of love divided into 2 laws to love God, love your neighbor; which are then divided up into 10 specifics.
There is no way you can get rid of the 4th (sabbath) commandment without doing away with the entire 10 commandment law.
I can SAY "I love my neighbor" yet I sleep with his wife, I steal his money, I sell his children. I am a liar if I claim I love God but deliberately break His law every chance I get.....
I strongly suggest you read I John 2:1-6