Are you a monergist or a synergist?

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Which are you? Please vote only once and simply add 1 to the current total for what you choose.

  • Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
  • Poll closed .
Brother, the distinction between spirit and soul is real, but the conclusions you’re drawing from that distinction are not found anywhere in Scripture: the Bible never says the human spirit is an incorruptible “deposit from God,” never says it remains untouched by the fall, and never says it merely becomes “disconnected” rather than dead; instead, Paul says the inner man is what must be made alive (Eph 2:1), renewed (2 Cor 4:16), and recreated (Eph 4:24), which only makes sense if the human spirit itself is fallen. When you say “man’s spirit has no bearing on the life of the man unless connected to God,” you’re actually agreeing with Paul’s point: the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14) because his spirit is not neutral — it is incapable until God gives a new one (Ezek 36:26). And your claim that the unrighteous man’s spirit “returns to God” while his soul is destroyed in hell is not taught in Scripture; Ecclesiastes 12:7 refers to the breath of life, not the human spirit being absorbed back into God. Likewise, “born of the Spirit” in John 3 is not the human spirit reconnecting with God — Jesus says it is a birth from above, a new creation, not a reactivation of an old spark.
As for conviction, the Spirit convicts the world because His work is external proclamation, not internal cooperation; He exposes guilt, but only those whom the Father draws respond (John 6:44). Conviction is universal; regeneration is not. The fallen spirit does not assist conviction — the Spirit of God does. The issue is not universal salvation; the issue is that Scripture presents the human spirit as fallen, dead, and in need of new creation, not as a dormant divine deposit waiting to reconnect.

I don't think we disagree on the main parts, only on it's application.

The natural man includes his body, mind and his soul. These are opposed to God. While unredeemed, his spirit is dead: unable to affect his life.

You almost got it: referencing the breath of life. God is spirit and so He gives spiritual things. Why not simply let the breath disperse after a man's physical death? Why not let it become part of the atmosphere? Because its origin is God who gave it. That breath ultimately belongs to Him and so it returns to God upon a man's death. "Is it a physical thing?" No. God is Spirit.

And, regarding conviction by the Holy Spirit: which part of fallen man "receives" the conviction? Remember, it is the work of the Holy Spirit. If man "cannot receive things of the Spirit" (1 Cor 2:14) then how can fallen man become convicted? Furthermore, how can fallen man resist God if he cannot receive the things of the Spirit? Why oppose God's Spirit at all? Why not simply ignore God? But man cannot ignore God. Indeed, even creation testifies of His invisible characteristics. Unbelief is active and intentional.
 
If God would have taken Adam's spirit from him when he sinned, Adam's body would have died at that moment. It was Adam's spirit, given by God, that made him "a living being" and kept life in his body until he died at 930 years old.

Can you explain what you understand by "quickened"?
I didn't say God took Adam's spirit. I said his spirit, and all other facets of him, were corrupted. They no longer worked as God originally designed them. The image of God wasn't taken from man, but was marred in man.

In salvation, God gives man both a new heart and spirit, and also places His Spirit within man. It is this activity that changes man's nature as it was before; actually it is improved upon because man becomes a partaker of the divine nature. This is found in Ezekiel 36:26-27. Notice in verse 37, it is the indwelling Spirit that leads to man's compliance.
 
I don't think we disagree on the main parts, only on it's application.

The natural man includes his body, mind and his soul. These are opposed to God. While unredeemed, his spirit is dead: unable to affect his life.

You almost got it: referencing the breath of life. God is spirit and so He gives spiritual things. Why not simply let the breath disperse after a man's physical death? Why not let it become part of the atmosphere? Because its origin is God who gave it. That breath ultimately belongs to Him and so it returns to God upon a man's death. "Is it a physical thing?" No. God is Spirit.

And, regarding conviction by the Holy Spirit: which part of fallen man "receives" the conviction? Remember, it is the work of the Holy Spirit. If man "cannot receive things of the Spirit" (1 Cor 2:14) then how can fallen man become convicted? Furthermore, how can fallen man resist God if he cannot receive the things of the Spirit? Why oppose God's Spirit at all? Why not simply ignore God? But man cannot ignore God. Indeed, even creation testifies of His invisible characteristics. Unbelief is active and intentional
Spiritually dead in Scripture does not mean “merely separated,” but separated in such a way that the human spirit is unable to respond to God at all — morally responsible, but spiritually incapable — until God makes it alive again.
Separation describes the distance (Isa 59:2), but the Bible always adds the condition: the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14), cannot submit to God (Rom 8:7), cannot come to Christ (John 6:44), and does not seek God (Rom 3:11), which means spiritual death is not passive disconnection but active hostility and inability.
Conviction still reaches fallen man because it is the Spirit’s external work, not the human spirit’s internal capacity — He exposes guilt to the world (John 16:8), but only those whom God makes alive respond.
So yes, death includes separation, but Scripture defines that separation as incapacity, not neutrality, which is why spiritual life requires God to make the dead alive rather than simply reconnect what was separated.
 
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I didn't say God took Adam's spirit. I said his spirit, and all other facets of him, were corrupted. They no longer worked as God originally designed them. The image of God wasn't taken from man, but was marred in man.

In salvation, God gives man both a new heart and spirit, and also places His Spirit within man. It is this activity that changes man's nature as it was before; actually it is improved upon because man becomes a partaker of the divine nature. This is found in Ezekiel 36:26-27. Notice in verse 37, it is the indwelling Spirit that leads to man's compliance.
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of course they did.

Did Jona have free will?

Could he have died in the great fish?
Umm… God explained what he thought very clearly about Jonah’s free will. He killed Him!

Resurrected him, and explained again what Will Jonah would follow.
 
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God hated one baby in the womb, but loved another baby in the womb.. their eternities were set in stone (rom 9) hence fatalism
It's not fatalism because it mattered what they did. Get it. Fatalism says that it doesn't matter.
but when you say God choses not to do that for someone else.

You basically state the fatalistic view
No. In my view, not only does God predestine the fate of a person, but he also predestines the entire arc of their life story.
God opened your heart. so no matter what, you would recieve him

God did not open their heart. so no matter what they would never recieve him

Thats the jist of fatalisict faith as I see it
It is not fatalistic since God orchestrates their entire story.

You might imagine that there will be some people who wanted eternal life, wanted to be with Jesus but since God ordained that they would not enter his kingdom, even while they are kicking and screaming all the way to hell. But election isn't like that. Election takes place before the foundation of the earth, but each person's life has a narrative structure in which God orchestrates the entire arc of their life.

Your supposition that election is like God opening a person's heart no matter what is not what the Bible teaches, and it is not what we teach. Your view supposes that God is a mechanic, randomly opening hearts whenever it pleases him, as if people were minding their own business. The flaw in your supposition is that God creates one time. Creation happened thousands of years ago and all God has to do is keep it running. But that is not the Biblical view of creation.

God not only creates us as individuals, but he also creates our life story. If God opens a person's heart, he planned to open their heart from the beginning and when he opens their heart, it comes at just the right time, in the proper sequence, and it make sense inside the story.

I'm teaching through Ephesians on YouTube and in Ephesians chapter two Paul says that We are God's workmanship, created for good works. Ephesians 2:10

Paul concludes with a breathtaking assertion: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” This was an ah‑ha moment for me when I first grasped the full weight of what Paul is saying. Salvation, in Paul’s mind, is not merely a decision we make or a status we receive—it is a **creative act of God**. We experience ourselves using our freedom, making wise choices, believing God’s word, trusting in His Son Jesus Christ. But above and behind all of that, Paul says we were **created** in Christ Jesus. Our very choices, our believing, our trusting, our turning, our walking—these are part of God’s workmanship, crafted to accomplish His will for His Son and for all who are “in Him.” We are not self‑made believers; we are God‑made people, newly created in Christ for a life that He Himself prepared for us to walk in.
 
Conviction still reaches fallen man because it is the Spirit’s external work, not the human spirit’s internal capacity — He exposes guilt to the world (John 16:8), but only those whom God makes alive respond.
So yes, death includes separation, but Scripture defines that separation as incapacity, not neutrality, which is why spiritual life requires God to make the dead alive rather than simply reconnect what was separated.

I did not say all fallen men who are convicted respond to God only that they are convicted. For most, it will simply bolster their current level of resistance. You will have to explain how conviction remains "external". How does "external" vs "internal" conviction work?

Also, @HeIsHere was the one who referenced that spiritual death is disconnection. I agree with her. It seems we all agreed with this until I began sharing how this actually works. But let's not get hung up on semantics: if you are not connected to the source of life, "death" seems like a fairly good word to use to describe your current state.

You wrote: "So yes, death includes separation, but Scripture defines that separation as incapacity, not neutrality, which is why spiritual life requires God to make the dead alive rather than simply reconnect what was separated."

Until you get into how the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteous, and judgement, and how fallen man may perceive, in what is created, God's invisible attributes. And what Paul wrote, that attributes of God are manifest in men "because God showed it to them":

"..manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..."


See, this goes back to the reality of man before creation: Believing God is man's default setting. He was created to believe God, who was his Father, and to receive God, the breath of life in him. Coincidentally, this is the state to which man is reconciled in Christ.

But the fall elevated the soul and body to hierarchy within the man and man's spirit was suppressed, called "dead". This was the curse that came through Adam: that all men are lost and condemned.

The answer to this lost state was secured in eternity: "The Lamb was slain from the foundation of world" so that a new spirit, a Life-giving Spirit, could be given to man by grace. We are then reconciled: brought back to God's original intent, in this state: having a spirit that is alive towards God.
 
You will have to explain how conviction remains "external". How does "external" vs "internal" conviction work?

Also, @HeIsHere was the one who referenced that spiritual death is disconnection. I agree with her. It seems we all agreed with this until I began sharing how this actually works. But let's not get hung up on semantics: if you are not connected to the source of life, "death" seems like a fairly good word to use to describe your current state.

You wrote: "So yes, death includes separation, but Scripture defines that separation as incapacity, not neutrality, which is why spiritual life requires God to make the dead alive rather than simply reconnect what was separated."

Until you get into how the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteous, and judgement, and how fallen man may perceive, in what is created, God's invisible attributes. And what Paul wrote, that attributes of God are manifest in men "because God showed it to them":

"..manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..."

See, this goes back to the reality of man before creation: Believing God is man's default setting. He was created to believe God, who was his Father, and to receive God, the breath of life in him. Coincidentally, this is the state to which man is reconciled in Christ.

But the fall elevated the soul and body to hierarchy within the man and man's spirit was suppressed, called "dead". This was the curse that came through Adam: that all men are lost and condemned.

The answer to this lost state was secured in eternity: "The Lamb was slain from the foundation of world" so that a new spirit, a Life-giving Spirit, could be given to man by grace. We are then reconciled: brought back to God's original intent, in this state: having a spirit that is alive towards God.
Conviction remains “external” because Scripture describes it as the Spirit’s objective, outward testimony to the world — not an internal, regenerative work in the human spirit; Jesus says the Spirit “convicts the world” (John 16:8), not that He awakens the human spirit to cooperate, and Paul says God’s attributes are “manifest in them” because He shows it to them (Rom 1:19), meaning fallen man perceives truth through creation and conscience, not through a spiritually alive inner faculty.
This perception is not spiritual receptivity — it is moral exposure: the natural man “cannot receive” the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14), “cannot submit” (Rom 8:7), and “cannot come” unless drawn (John 6:44), which means his awareness of God’s power and judgment is real but non‑saving.
Your framework treats “disconnection” as if the human spirit is dormant but still capable of perceiving God, yet Scripture says spiritual death is incapacity, not suppressed potential; man’s default before the fall was believing God, but after the fall his spirit is not merely pushed down by soul and body — it is dead, requiring a new spirit (Ezek 36:26) and new birth (John 3:5–8), not reactivation of an old one.
And yes, reconciliation restores man to God’s original intent, but not by reviving Adam’s spirit — by giving the Life‑giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45), which is why regeneration is creation, not reconnection.
 
Umm… God explained what he thought very clearly about Jonah’s free will. He killed Him!

Resurrected him, and explained again what Will Jonah would follow.
Jonah still chose to do what God wanted.

God did not force jonah to go to nineva
 
It's not fatalism because it mattered what they did. Get it. Fatalism says that it doesn't matter.
No you do not get it

They had not done anything yet. their eternity was already determined.

its called double predestination
No. In my view, not only does God predestine the fate of a person, but he also predestines the entire arc of their life story.

It is not fatalistic since God orchestrates their entire story.

You might imagine that there will be some people who wanted eternal life, wanted to be with Jesus but since God ordained that they would not enter his kingdom, even while they are kicking and screaming all the way to hell. But election isn't like that. Election takes place before the foundation of the earth, but each person's life has a narrative structure in which God orchestrates the entire arc of their life.

Your supposition that election is like God opening a person's heart no matter what is not what the Bible teaches, and it is not what we teach. Your view supposes that God is a mechanic, randomly opening hearts whenever it pleases him, as if people were minding their own business. The flaw in your supposition is that God creates one time. Creation happened thousands of years ago and all God has to do is keep it running. But that is not the Biblical view of creation.

God not only creates us as individuals, but he also creates our life story. If God opens a person's heart, he planned to open their heart from the beginning and when he opens their heart, it comes at just the right time, in the proper sequence, and it make sense inside the story.

I'm teaching through Ephesians on YouTube and in Ephesians chapter two Paul says that We are God's workmanship, created for good works. Ephesians 2:10

Paul concludes with a breathtaking assertion: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” This was an ah‑ha moment for me when I first grasped the full weight of what Paul is saying. Salvation, in Paul’s mind, is not merely a decision we make or a status we receive—it is a **creative act of God**. We experience ourselves using our freedom, making wise choices, believing God’s word, trusting in His Son Jesus Christ. But above and behind all of that, Paul says we were **created** in Christ Jesus. Our very choices, our believing, our trusting, our turning, our walking—these are part of God’s workmanship, crafted to accomplish His will for His Son and for all who are “in Him.” We are not self‑made believers; we are God‑made people, newly created in Christ for a life that He Himself prepared for us to walk in.
Election is based on Gods foreknowledge

God did not randomly chose to save this person

and randomly chose to reject this person.
 
No you do not get it

They had not done anything yet. their eternity was already determined.

its called double predestination
When we interpret this section, it's important to follow Paul's argument and focus on his central point. He is trying to show that election is not based on any characteristic found in the boys. Don't let that detail escape your notice. Paul is not saying the boys didn't do anything good or bad. He is saying that their status was not determined based on what they did.

Then Paul asks the rhetorical question. God is not unjust is he? May it never be. Why? God is the creator, and as the creator, he can't do anything unjust. In Romans chapter 3, Paul employs an idiom that his audience would know< I am speaking humanly" meaning, his argument about God's justice must be understood from a Human vantage point.

I am quoting from my script.

Paul’s phrase “I am speaking in human terms” deserves a moment of careful attention. The Greek expression (*kata anthrōpon*) means “from a human point of view,” and Paul uses it to signal that some theological ideas must be approached from the earthly side of reality rather than the heavenly side. Scripture often distinguishes these two vantage points. Jesus told Nicodemus, “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” Earthly things operate according to the logic of human experience; heavenly things operate according to the logic of God’s transcendent reality. Both are true, but each has its own principles. Paul is alerting his readers that the argument he is making—about sin, righteousness, and judgment—is being framed from the human perspective, the perspective in which moral responsibility and divine justice must be understood.

From the transcendental point of view, however, the question Paul raises cannot even get off the ground. It is impossible for God to be unjust. As Creator, He is the source of all moral truth, the standard of righteousness itself. He cannot be wrong because wrongness would require a standard above Him, and no such standard exists. But Paul is not arguing from that heavenly vantage point here. He is reasoning within our reality, where humans evaluate actions, consequences, and justice according to the moral framework God has given us. So he pauses to tell his readers: interpret what I am about to say from the human side, not the divine side. God’s justice is unassailable in His own realm, but the argument Paul is developing must be understood within ours.

In Romans 9, Paul argues that God was not unjust to choose Jacob over Esau even before the boys were born because, looking at the situation from a heavenly vantage point, God created the boys. And a created thing will not say, "why did you make me like this?" God creates people for a specific purpose, which is why his "choice" is not fatalistic. They are who they are because God has a purpose for them.

Some things are meant to be understood from a human perspective while other things are meant to be understood from a heavenly perspective. From a human perspective, Esau traded stew for his blessing and this is the reason why God worked against Esau. Jacob wrestled with God, demonstrating his desire to be blessed by God. Again, the fate of the boys was not fatalistic, their stories make perfect sense of their fate. Their choices make perfect sense of God's declaration, "Jacob I love and Esau I hated."

But from a heavenly view point, God created the boys and their stories and it is God's perogative to create them as he wished.

Election is based on Gods foreknowledge

God did not randomly chose to save this person

and randomly chose to reject this person.
Some people have the wrong idea about foreknowledge, thinking that God looked down through time to pick and choose those who were going to believe his word and worship his son. But this is not the Biblical view of election.

Election is not Selection. When Paul speaks of God “choosing,” he does **not** mean that God looks down the corridors of time, identifies those who will believe, and then selects them based on foreseen faith. That is **selection**, the way a woman goes to a store, evaluates a shelf of pots, and picks the one that best fits her criteria. Paul’s theology moves in an entirely different direction. God does not select pre‑existing vessels; He **creates** the vessels He desires. If God wants a pot, He does not browse—He speaks: *“Let there be a pot with these qualities.”* So when Paul says we were chosen “in Christ” before the foundation of the world, he is echoing the creation story to make a profound point: God’s choice is a creative act. He orchestrates our personal histories, our encounters, our awakenings, and our turning points so that we freely and genuinely come to trust Christ. To be chosen is to be crafted—shaped by God’s purpose so that we become loyal believers in Jesus. This blessing is not about God reacting to our future decisions; it is about God forming us so that we will make them.
 
Brother, I used “unresponsive, uninterested, and incapable” because Scripture itself adds those elements to the word separated — separation is the position, but the Bible describes the condition of that separation as inability.
When Paul says we were “dead in trespasses and sins,” he immediately explains what that death looks like: the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit and cannot know them (1 Cor 2:14), the mind set on the flesh cannot submit to God (Rom 8:7), and no one can come to Christ unless drawn (John 6:44).
Those are not synonyms for “separated”; they are descriptions of functional inability.
So yes — spiritual death includes separation — but Scripture never stops at separation; it defines that separation as incapacity, which is why I used those words earlier.

In context and using correct hermeneutics of audience relevance first and foremost....Paul is making NO statement with regards to exercising faith in Christ Jesus and the Good News.

He is writing to believers.

The point Paul is making is that the Greeks steeped in ideas surroundings logic, arguments and human wisdom cannot use those skills to understand the spiritual things of God.

Nowhere, not in one single place does scripture teach that people are born unable to respond positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus.

It is not there, neither is regeneration before faith.
 
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Conviction remains “external” because Scripture describes it as the Spirit’s objective, outward testimony to the world — not an internal, regenerative work in the human spirit; Jesus says the Spirit “convicts the world” (John 16:8), not that He awakens the human spirit to cooperate, and Paul says God’s attributes are “manifest in them” because He shows it to them (Rom 1:19), meaning fallen man perceives truth through creation and conscience, not through a spiritually alive inner faculty.
This perception is not spiritual receptivity — it is moral exposure: the natural man “cannot receive” the things of the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14), “cannot submit” (Rom 8:7), and “cannot come” unless drawn (John 6:44), which means his awareness of God’s power and judgment is real but non‑saving.
Your framework treats “disconnection” as if the human spirit is dormant but still capable of perceiving God, yet Scripture says spiritual death is incapacity, not suppressed potential; man’s default before the fall was believing God, but after the fall his spirit is not merely pushed down by soul and body — it is dead, requiring a new spirit (Ezek 36:26) and new birth (John 3:5–8), not reactivation of an old one.
And yes, reconciliation restores man to God’s original intent, but not by reviving Adam’s spirit — by giving the Life‑giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45), which is why regeneration is creation, not reconnection.
Hmm, I didn't say "awaken".

Also, fallen man should have no standard by which to be convicted except his own, right? So how can fallen man be convicted if he has already determined, within himself, to be the arbiter of his own truth?

Fallen man naturally and actively resists God. I made the claim earlier that there are no atheists: all men know "God is". But scripture supports that man can perceive God and His qualities naturally. I mean, even the black and white of scripture can be understood, somewhat, by an unredeemed man. But conviction? That makes no sense unless fallen man can perceive attributes of God Who is Spirit, since it is the Holy Spirit's work that convicts the world.

You wrote this: "Conviction remains “external” because Scripture describes it as the Spirit’s objective, outward testimony to the world..."

To note: you added "objective" and "outward"

Yet the scripture records this:
"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

Those things require knowledge beyond the 5-senses. And still, why not simply ignore the Spirit (instead of being convicted by Him) unless, by some process I am explaining, an unredeemed man could judge the Spirit's work to be true?

Furthermore, James wrote "The body without the spirit is dead..." This is compatible with what I am teaching: the spirit of man, breathed into Adam, is what remains in all men. Upon death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. And maybe this will help: the spirits of redeemed men are renewed because they are joined with Christ, the Life-giving Spirit, in the man, when man is redeemed. This is a step Adam could not take, because Christ had not yet been revealed. So the spirits of men are perfected, completed, in Christ, when we live in Him and He in us. This is the "new spirit" of man. And to be true: this is not simply a spirit compatible with God, as a endowment of Him, but the spirit in man is God Himself. He then, the Spirit of God, forms the basis of "the new creation in Christ". In short, man was created to house the presence of the Living God, personally and corporately.
 
When we interpret this section, it's important to follow Paul's argument and focus on his central point. He is trying to show that election is not based on any characteristic found in the boys. Don't let that detail escape your notice. Paul is not saying the boys didn't do anything good or bad. He is saying that their status was not determined based on what they did.
Actually we need to interpret it correctly, Paul is not talking about anyones salvation, He is talking about Gods call of Israel
Then Paul asks the rhetorical question. God is not unjust is he? May it never be. Why? God is the creator, and as the creator, he can't do anything unjust. In Romans chapter 3, Paul employs an idiom that his audience would know< I am speaking humanly" meaning, his argument about God's justice must be understood from a Human vantage point.

I am quoting from my script.



In Romans 9, Paul argues that God was not unjust to choose Jacob over Esau even before the boys were born because, looking at the situation from a heavenly vantage point, God created the boys. And a created thing will not say, "why did you make me like this?" God creates people for a specific purpose, which is why his "choice" is not fatalistic. They are who they are because God has a purpose for them.

Some things are meant to be understood from a human perspective while other things are meant to be understood from a heavenly perspective. From a human perspective, Esau traded stew for his blessing and this is the reason why God worked against Esau. Jacob wrestled with God, demonstrating his desire to be blessed by God. Again, the fate of the boys was not fatalistic, their stories make perfect sense of their fate. Their choices make perfect sense of God's declaration, "Jacob I love and Esau I hated."

But from a heavenly view point, God created the boys and their stories and it is God's perogative to create them as he wished.


Some people have the wrong idea about foreknowledge, thinking that God looked down through time to pick and choose those who were going to believe his word and worship his son. But this is not the Biblical view of election.

Election is not Selection. When Paul speaks of God “choosing,” he does **not** mean that God looks down the corridors of time, identifies those who will believe, and then selects them based on foreseen faith. That is **selection**, the way a woman goes to a store, evaluates a shelf of pots, and picks the one that best fits her criteria. Paul’s theology moves in an entirely different direction. God does not select pre‑existing vessels; He **creates** the vessels He desires. If God wants a pot, He does not browse—He speaks: *“Let there be a pot with these qualities.”* So when Paul says we were chosen “in Christ” before the foundation of the world, he is echoing the creation story to make a profound point: God’s choice is a creative act. He orchestrates our personal histories, our encounters, our awakenings, and our turning points so that we freely and genuinely come to trust Christ. To be chosen is to be crafted—shaped by God’s purpose so that we become loyal believers in Jesus. This blessing is not about God reacting to our future decisions; it is about God forming us so that we will make them.
romans 9 - 11 is about God calling Israel. did he make a mistake?

its not about one baby going to hell and another going to heaven
 
In context and using correct hermeneutics of audience relevance first and foremost....Paul is making NO statement with regards to exercising faith in Christ Jesus and the Good News.

He is writing to believers.

The point Paul is making is that the Greeks steeped in ideas surroundings logic, arguments and human wisdom cannot use those skills to understand the spiritual things of God.

Nowhere, not in one single place does scripture teach that people are born unable to respond positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus.

It is not there, neither is regeneration before faith.
Your reply collapses because you tried to escape the force of the passages by hiding behind “audience relevance,” but Paul’s statements in 1 Corinthians 2 and Romans 8 are not limited to Greeks, philosophers, or any cultural subgroup — they are universal descriptions of the natural man, the flesh, and the unregenerate condition.
You say Paul “is making NO statement with regards to exercising faith in Christ,” but Paul explicitly says the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit and cannot know them (1 Cor 2:14).
That is not about Greek logic; that is about spiritual inability.
You cannot erase the word cannot by appealing to audience relevance.

You also claim “nowhere does Scripture teach people are born unable to respond positively to the Good News,” but Scripture says exactly that: the mind set on the flesh cannot submit to God (Rom 8:7), those in the flesh cannot please God (Rom 8:8), and no one can come to Christ unless drawn (John 6:44). These are not cultural limitations — they are anthropological realities.
You are denying explicit statements of inability because they contradict your system.

And when you say “regeneration before faith is not in Scripture,” you ignore Paul’s own order: God made us alive when we were dead (Eph 2:5), and only then does he speak of faith as the gift “not of yourselves” (Eph 2:8).
Dead men do not believe; God makes them alive so they can.
Your position requires spiritually dead people to perform spiritually living acts, which Scripture never teaches.

Brother, I’m correcting you because your argument is not anchored in the text — it is anchored in what you want the text to say.
You reduced Paul’s universal statements to cultural commentary, you denied explicit biblical “cannot” passages, and you insisted on human ability where Scripture insists on human inability.
Separation is the position, but Scripture defines the condition of that separation as incapacity — and no amount of audience‑relevance rhetoric can erase the words God actually wrote.
 
Your reply collapses because you tried to escape the force of the passages by hiding behind “audience relevance,” but Paul’s statements in 1 Corinthians 2 and Romans 8 are not limited to Greeks, philosophers, or any cultural subgroup — they are universal descriptions of the natural man, the flesh, and the unregenerate condition.
You say Paul “is making NO statement with regards to exercising faith in Christ,” but Paul explicitly says the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit and cannot know them (1 Cor 2:14).
That is not about Greek logic; that is about spiritual inability.
You cannot erase the word cannot by appealing to audience relevance.

You also claim “nowhere does Scripture teach people are born unable to respond positively to the Good News,” but Scripture says exactly that: the mind set on the flesh cannot submit to God (Rom 8:7), those in the flesh cannot please God (Rom 8:8), and no one can come to Christ unless drawn (John 6:44). These are not cultural limitations — they are anthropological realities.
You are denying explicit statements of inability because they contradict your system.

And when you say “regeneration before faith is not in Scripture,” you ignore Paul’s own order: God made us alive when we were dead (Eph 2:5), and only then does he speak of faith as the gift “not of yourselves” (Eph 2:8).
Dead men do not believe; God makes them alive so they can.
Your position requires spiritually dead people to perform spiritually living acts, which Scripture never teaches.

Brother, I’m correcting you because your argument is not anchored in the text — it is anchored in what you want the text to say.
You reduced Paul’s universal statements to cultural commentary, you denied explicit biblical “cannot” passages, and you insisted on human ability where Scripture insists on human inability.
Separation is the position, but Scripture defines the condition of that separation as incapacity — and no amount of audience‑relevance rhetoric can erase the words God actually wrote.

Sadly you do not see the point of Paul's argument and why he penned these words.

News Flash: The Greek which is gendered language does not support faith as the gift in that verse.... the gift is salvation.

Did you notice the passage has a certain person is in view "the mind set on the flesh" does it say each and every person...NO!

Oh yes and being made alive comes after faith.
 
Hmm, I didn't say "awaken".

Also, fallen man should have no standard by which to be convicted except his own, right? So how can fallen man be convicted if he has already determined, within himself, to be the arbiter of his own truth?

Fallen man naturally and actively resists God. I made the claim earlier that there are no atheists: all men know "God is". But scripture supports that man can perceive God and His qualities naturally. I mean, even the black and white of scripture can be understood, somewhat, by an unredeemed man. But conviction? That makes no sense unless fallen man can perceive attributes of God Who is Spirit, since it is the Holy Spirit's work that convicts the world.

You wrote this: "Conviction remains “external” because Scripture describes it as the Spirit’s objective, outward testimony to the world..."

To note: you added "objective" and "outward"

Yet the scripture records this:
"And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

Those things require knowledge beyond the 5-senses. And still, why not simply ignore the Spirit (instead of being convicted by Him) unless, by some process I am explaining, an unredeemed man could judge the Spirit's work to be true?

Furthermore, James wrote "The body without the spirit is dead..." This is compatible with what I am teaching: the spirit of man, breathed into Adam, is what remains in all men. Upon death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. And maybe this will help: the spirits of redeemed men are renewed because they are joined with Christ, the Life-giving Spirit, in the man, when man is redeemed. This is a step Adam could not take, because Christ had not yet been revealed. So the spirits of men are perfected, completed, in Christ, when we live in Him and He in us. This is the "new spirit" of man. And to be true: this is not simply a spirit compatible with God, as a endowment of Him, but the spirit in man is God Himself. He then, the Spirit of God, forms the basis of "the new creation in Christ". In short, man was created to house the presence of the Living God, personally and corporately.
Your reply does not actually engage the Scriptures I cited — you shifted the conversation into metaphysics of “spirit,” “breath,” and “housing God,” but you never answered the simple biblical question: How does a spiritually dead man respond to spiritual truth?
You keep assuming fallen man has an inner spiritual faculty capable of evaluating the Spirit’s work, but Scripture explicitly denies that. When Jesus says the Spirit “convicts the world,” He is describing the Spirit’s objective act, not the world’s subjective ability. Conviction is the Spirit’s work, not man’s capacity.

You ask, “How can fallen man be convicted if he has already determined his own truth?”
Scripture answers that: conviction is moral exposure, not spiritual cooperation.
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit and cannot know them (1 Cor 2:14).
The mind set on the flesh cannot submit to God (Rom 8:7).
No one can come unless drawn (John 6:44).
You keep trying to smuggle ability into the fallen condition, but the text uses the word cannot three times.
Conviction does not require spiritual ability — it requires spiritual guilt.
The Spirit exposes; the sinner resists. That is the biblical pattern.

Your argument that “fallen man must perceive attributes of God to be convicted” is correct — but you misunderstand the category. Romans 1 does not describe spiritual perception; it describes natural revelation.
Creation and conscience reveal God’s power and judgment, but Paul says this revelation leads not to faith but to suppression (Rom 1:18). Fallen man perceives enough to be guilty, not enough to be receptive.
You keep treating perception as capacity, but Scripture treats perception as condemnation.

Your anthropology collapses because you treat the human spirit as a neutral, dormant faculty waiting to be reconnected.
But Scripture says the human spirit is dead, not disconnected (Eph 2:1).
Dead does not mean “inactive but intact”; dead means incapable.
Ezekiel does not say God reconnects the old spirit — He says God gives a new spirit (Ezek 36:26).
Jesus does not say the old spirit is revived — He says a man must be born again (John 3:5–8).
Paul does not say Adam’s spirit is repaired — he says Christ is the Life‑giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45).
Regeneration is creation, not reactivation.

And your final claim — that “the spirit in man is God Himself” — is not only unbiblical, it is dangerously close to collapsing the Creator‑creature distinction.
Scripture never says the human spirit is God.
Scripture says the Spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9), not that He is our spirit.
The human spirit is created (Zech 12:1). God is uncreated.
To equate them is to blur the line Scripture never blurs.

So I stand by what I said: conviction is external, spiritual death is incapacity, regeneration is new creation, and fallen man does not possess an inner spiritual faculty capable of evaluating the Spirit’s work.
You are building on a system on metaphysical speculation, not on the words God actually wrote.
 
Actually we need to interpret it correctly, Paul is not talking about anyones salvation, He is talking about Gods call of Israel
No. He begins chapter 9 with the premise that "the adoption as sons" belongs to his kinsmen. He goes on to show, even though that is true, God still chooses individuals for that purpose. "The Adoption as sons" is Paul's idiom indicating individual election. The question is, Who is a "son" with respect to the question of inheritance. Who stands to inherit eternal life? In this chapter, Paul summarizes them as "children of promise," and he cites Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac was/is a child of promise.
romans 9 - 11 is about God calling Israel. did he make a mistake?
It is not an argument to defend God's intelligence; it's an argument to defend God's faithfulness. "Has the word of God failed?" That is the issue.
its not about one baby going to hell and another going to heaven
I agree. It's about who will receive God's blessing and who won't. God decided to bless Jacob and not Esau, and his decision predated their existence. It does NOT depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy.
 
Yeah, there are a lot of assumptions
You keep assuming fallen man has an inner spiritual faculty capable of evaluating the Spirit’s work, but Scripture explicitly denies that. When Jesus says the Spirit “convicts the world,” He is describing the Spirit’s objective act, not the world’s subjective ability. Conviction is the Spirit’s work, not man’s capacity.
No, more like you have a different view of the texts I cited.

And you make conviction out to be some kind of external treatise created against man when the text clearly states that conviction is an act of the world: a world with a corrupted conscience is somehow able to discern that the Holy Spirit declares the truth.