Rome's challenge.

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TMS said:
..... Not under the law.....

If you are lead by the Spirit will you ....

1. Have other gods before God?.
2. Make unto thee any graven image?.
3. Bow down thyself to any graven images or serve them?
4. Take the name of the LORD thy God in vain?
5. Forget the sabbath day, and not keep it holy?
6. kill?
7. commit adultery?
8. steal?
9. bear false witness against thy neighbour?
10. covet others things?

If you are lead by the Spirit you are not under the laws condemnation.

There is nothing that you are guilty of.

If you obey the traffic rules perfectly then you are not under the traffic laws because you are not guilty.
Click to expand...
The Mosaic Law was easier to keep than the Sermon on the Mount.

1. Don’t have even husband or wife or children before God.
2. Don’t imagine and promote any false methods of saving yourself.
3. Don’t rely on and participate in those false strategies.
4. Always do and say what will make the Lord’s name honoured and great in the earth.
5. Rest from our own works to spend all our time in our Lord’s company 24/7 doing what pleases Him.
6. Forgive even those who persecute and attempt to murder us.
7. Think only pure thoughts.
8. Give freely.
9. Tell the truth all the time about everything.
10. Consider others' needs ahead of one’s own.

If we replace Saturday rest from our own works with daily rest from our own works, making every day and every minute that is a step up keeping the ten commandments, not down. If we replace refraining from doing evil on the sabbath to doing good on the sabbath and every other day, that is a step up from keeping the ten commandments.
 
Imagine the economy if every Christian the world over stopped working every day of the week.
Where would they get the money to survive? Food to eat, clothes to wear, a house to live in?
Imagine your boss calling you up asking where you are, why didn't you come in to work yesterday either and you said, "I am resting in Christ now. Every day. I won't be in tomorrow either. But please send me my paycheck anyway."

The rest in Christ we do EVERY day is not the same type of rest commanded in the 4th commandment.
Try reading Exo 20:8-11 for yourself. Verse by verse, word for word.....

Sure if I stop killing 5 people each week and only kill one per week now that's a step up isn't it? Yet I am still a serial killer....
 
Davidstarr said:
You have a strange paradox.
On the one hand you say you ignore the law especially the 10 commandments yet on the other hand you acknowledge that the law of love INCLUDES the 10 commandments.

Rom 13:9 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
The phrase "it is briefly comprehended" in the original Greek (anakephalaioō) means "gather together into one", "to condense into a summary".
The command to "love your neighbor" includes the last 6 of the 10 commandments.
So why wouldn't the command to "love God with all your might" not also include the 1st 4?
Do you claim to love god yet you curse Him? Worship idols?

ONE law of love divided into 2 laws to love God, love your neighbor; which are then divided up into 10 specifics.

There is no way you can get rid of the 4th (sabbath) commandment without doing away with the entire 10 commandment law.

I can SAY "I love my neighbor" yet I sleep with his wife, I steal his money, I sell his children. I am a liar if I claim I love God but deliberately break His law every chance I get.....

I strongly suggest you read I John 2:1-6
Click to expand...
You seem to be confused.

I quoted the following verse in my previous post.

Galatians 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love
serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

You took out the meat clever and chopped up the ten commandments into parts.

Paul said; "For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word".

Not some of the law was fulfilled by loving others, Davidstarr.

Now for your quotation of romans 13:9 and I will add some context.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. For this,
“YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there
is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Now i will repeat what I quoted earlier.

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word.
Not part of the law.

Now in the same vein.

1 John 3:21-24
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him,
because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we
believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps
His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

You have the wrong set of commandments.
 
Davidstarr said:
Imagine the economy if every Christian the world over stopped working every day of the week.
Where would they get the money to survive? Food to eat, clothes to wear, a house to live in?
Imagine your boss calling you up asking where you are, why didn't you come in to work yesterday either and you said, "I am resting in Christ now. Every day. I won't be in tomorrow either. But please send me my paycheck anyway."

The rest in Christ we do EVERY day is not the same type of rest commanded in the 4th commandment.
Try reading Exo 20:8-11 for yourself. Verse by verse, word for word.....

Sure if I stop killing 5 people each week and only kill one per week now that's a step up isn't it? Yet I am still a serial killer....
Click to expand...
The continuous problem you have is your literal reading of Exodus 20 and what Jesus said in Matthew 5.

Here is what you said.

Try reading Exo 20:8-11 for yourself. Verse by verse, word for word.....

I have explained to you that your thoughts condemn you but the literal 10 commandments may not condemn you.
If you lust after a women or wish someone was dead your guilty and must die, though you have not transgressed
the literal law.

Do you see the difference?

You also don't understand that there is no forgiveness under the law, because if you transgress the ten commandments
the penalty is death.

Grace and law are different entities.

Grace is loaded with forgiveness and love.

The law is neither forgiving or loving but a death sentence for all that transgress.
 
You are twisting my words around.
I did not say the 10 commandments were to be chopped up into separate pieces.
The 10 commandments ARE the separate pieces.
Summed up by the 2 greatest commandments.

I can say I love my neighbor as myself yet feed him to my crocodile god because I want someone to do this to me.
For love of my neighbor I have ended his life of pain, disease, suffering and sent him on to paradise.
So now murder is an outward showing that I love my neighbor and keep the law of love.

This is where your arguments are leading people....

You are too generalistic and not specific enough about how love for our neighbors is shown.
Is my neighbor's salvation in danger because his wife sleeps around? Then I need to show him this about his wife.
Does my neighbor's wealth threaten his salvation? Then take it away from him.

Is this your idea of being Christian?
 
PaulThomson said:
The Mosaic Law was easier to keep than the Sermon on the Mount.
Click to expand...
Jesus came to make the law clearer. He did not come to remove it.

Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He showed us the broadness and depth of the law.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

End = Strong's Definition: From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost.

End of the law. = Christ was the result of the law... Christ was the definition of the law, Christ was the conclusion of the law.

The life and teachings of Christ did not controdict or change the law it helped us understand them.

If we live the life of Christ we will be obeying the 10 commandments in every way.

The law is called the law of liberty and the Royal law. God's law.

I can't understand why people think they can add to or take away from God's law.
 
Inquisitor said:
That is exactly how the Catholic Church explains the role of the law.

The Catholic Church and your church both misunderstood the context in Romans.

The context specifically states that Gentiles were never and are not under the law.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law
to themselves.

The text (Romans 2:14) tells you that the Gentiles were not under the law (Exodus 20).

The Catholic Church affirms that Christians are bound by the moral obligations of the Ten Commandments, but it does not
base this obligation on Romans 2:14 specifically. Instead, it teaches that the Ten Commandments express the natural law,
and that Jesus Christ reaffirmed and elevated them in the New Testament.

See TMS, you state exactly what the Catholic Church states.

I reject out of hand a legal set of commandments that you call moral and eternal.

The ten commandments and other ceremonial laws appear in the letters of the N.T.

There is no division in the law itself and there never was.

Catholics and yourself see a sharp division in what is moral (natural) and eternal law.

You peddle the Catholic doctrine all the time.

No one could ever reasonably assume there is a natural law of the sabbath day or of coveting.

There is no record in human history of a law against coveting and there is nothing moral or natural about, the tenth
commandment.

Add to that what Jesus said in Matthew 5.

Matthew 5:27-28
You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman
with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus condemned the very thoughts a person has which completely surpasses the written law in condemnation.

The error; I have never committed the physical act of adultery therefore, I am obedient to the eternal law?

What you miss is obedience to the law results in condemnation because no one can adequately control, their own
thought processes.
Click to expand...
You are supporting "Romes challenge"

The challenge states that if you follow the Bible you should obey God's law.

The challenge states that the Protestant churches should follow the Bible, but they don't.

The Catholic church does not claim the Bible as the final standard. They claim that God directly guided the changes they have made.

But Protestants claim that they follow the Bible alone.

So I am not like the Catholic church, im a protestant, i don't believe the authority of the church traditions can decide what truth is.

Catholic Church: Led by the Pope in Rome, who is viewed as the leader of the church. Authority comes from both the Bible and sacred church traditions.

Protestant Church: Made up of many independent groups with no single leader. They view the Bible as the final and ultimate authority for faith.
 
TMS said:
Jesus came to make the law clearer. He did not come to remove it.

Mat 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He showed us the broadness and depth of the law.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

End = Strong's Definition: From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost.

End of the law. = Christ was the result of the law... Christ was the definition of the law, Christ was the conclusion of the law.

The life and teachings of Christ did not controdict or change the law it helped us understand them.

If we live the life of Christ we will be obeying the 10 commandments in every way.

The law is called the law of liberty and the Royal law. God's law.

I can't understand why people think they can add to or take away from God's law.
Click to expand...
Especially the 4th commandment. It is the only one of the 10 that actually IDs which God gave this law. Our Creator (Exo 20:11).
The other 9 do not say. Any ole god can give some moral laws concerning murder, theft, adultery, worship other gods, etc. but cannot claim Creatorship of all things.
It is God's mark/seal/sign/stamp in the law of His authority religious matters.
Eze 20:12 & 20 "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them."
The Hebrew word is "'ôṯ" which also means "a token, distinguishing mark, a banner)

Take the 7th day sabbath out of the law and you now have no idea which god we worship. Certainly not our Creator. We have taken Him out of the law.
So what could we possibly have left? A counterfeit god, sitting in a counterfeit temple with his own counterfeit day of worship which he claims is HIS mark of authority.
Sound familiar?
 
Davidstarr said:
You are twisting my words around.
I did not say the 10 commandments were to be chopped up into separate pieces.
The 10 commandments ARE the separate pieces.
Summed up by the 2 greatest commandments.

I can say I love my neighbor as myself yet feed him to my crocodile god because I want someone to do this to me.
For love of my neighbor I have ended his life of pain, disease, suffering and sent him on to paradise.
So now murder is an outward showing that I love my neighbor and keep the law of love.

This is where your arguments are leading people....

You are too generalistic and not specific enough about how love for our neighbors is shown.
Is my neighbor's salvation in danger because his wife sleeps around? Then I need to show him this about his wife.
Does my neighbor's wealth threaten his salvation? Then take it away from him.

Is this your idea of being Christian?
Click to expand...
I see it like you.

God is Love. LOVE.

Love is expanded and shown in ....
Mat 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These 2 are expanded in the 10.
The first 4 are about our LOVE FOR GOD.
The next 6 are about our LOVE FOR EACH OTHER. Our neighbours.


Jesus expanded the 10 commandments even more.
Mat 5:21-22
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and.....
His life was an example of obedience to the law.

Love is the center of them all.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
PaulThomson said:
One single leader: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Click to expand...
Is He Creator of all things? Because without those identifying marks in Exo 20:8-11 how do you know WHICH god or WHICH Jesus you worship?
You are stuck with only the denominational teachings and theologies of which ever church you adhere to.
This will lead you right back to Rome's Papa as your god.
 
TMS said:
Protestant Church: Made up of many independent groups with no single leader. They view the Bible as the final and ultimate authority for faith.
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit is the final authority over us and the scripture is a distant second place.

TMS said:
So I am not like the Catholic church, im a protestant, i don't believe the authority of the church traditions can decide what truth is.
Click to expand...
I wish you were not a Protestant these factions in Christianity reminds me of the factions in the Corinthian church.

TMS said:
The challenge states that the Protestant churches should follow the Bible, but they don't.
Click to expand...
The Protestant church directly copied the Reformers church format, structure, and doctrine to the letter.

And your church follows in lock step with the Protestants, Reformers, and the Catholic Church.

TMS said:
The challenge states that if you follow the Bible you should obey God's law.
Click to expand...
Israel was in covenant to obey the law but the Gentiles were not in covenant to obey the law.

The law of Mt Sinai was for the nation of Israel alone, but God made other biblical covenants that included all of humanity.

The Sinai Covenant (The Law)

Exclusive to Israel: God made the covenant of the Law (Torah) specifically with the Israelites at Mount Sinai after freeing
them from Egypt.

National Contract: This agreement required Israel to obey God's specific commandments in exchange for being His special
treasured possession and a holy nation.

Covenants with All People

The Noahic Covenant: God made a covenant with Noah, his descendants, and every living creature after the flood (Genesis 9).
This applies to all of humanity and nature.

The Abrahamic Covenant: God promised to bless Abraham, and through Abraham's family, to bring a blessing to "all the families
of the earth" (Genesis 12).

Other Ancient Nations

Legal Codes:
Neighboring ancient nations had their own laws and treaties, such as the Code of Hammurabi in Babylon.

No Divine Covenant:
While other nations had laws and kings, they were not in a religious covenant with the God of Israel to obey the
specific commands of the Sinai Law.

Deuteronomy 4:7–8
And what great nation is there that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?

Romans 9:3–4
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according
to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law...
 
Davidstarr said:
Is He Creator of all things? Because without those identifying marks in Exo 20:8-11 how do you know WHICH god or WHICH Jesus you worship?
You are stuck with only the denominational teachings and theologies of which ever church you adhere to.
This will lead you right back to Rome's Papa as your god.
Click to expand...
Your church is a direct copy of the Catholic church format.

Do you have the start of your service, then hymns, a collection, a sermon, then hymns again, end of service?

If so then you are in a clone of the Catholic, Reformer, Protestant churches, which all follow the same church tradition.

The church service in 1 Corinthians is a different church altogether and is led by the Holy Spirit.

This is the truth that very few would ever admit.
 
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Davidstarr said:
Is He Creator of all things? Because without those identifying marks in Exo 20:8-11 how do you know WHICH god or WHICH Jesus you worship?
Click to expand...
Yes. The Son created all things.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The only entities who are without beginning are the Godhead and the Persons who comprise the Godhead. No one else is without beginning. The Word who had no beginning and incarnated into humanity is the Jesus I worship. The Godhead of whom the Word is a member, and from whom Jesus came, and to whom Jesus returned, and with whom Jesus now reigns, is the God I worship.

Is that the right God?
 
I asked people to watch the links in post 60. true stories and documentary.

People are not willing... not sure why?
 
TMS said:
If you want to see an interesting documentary about the sabbath.


Or this one.


These are true stories. Look them up.

Click to expand...
Nature testifies of a creator Lord. Nature also tells us that the sabbath is still sanctified.
 
Davidstarr said:
Especially the 4th commandment. It is the only one of the 10 that actually IDs which God gave this law. Our Creator (Exo 20:11).
The other 9 do not say. Any ole god can give some moral laws concerning murder, theft, adultery, worship other gods, etc. but cannot claim Creatorship of all things.
It is God's mark/seal/sign/stamp in the law of His authority religious matters.
Eze 20:12 & 20 "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them."
The Hebrew word is "'ôṯ" which also means "a token, distinguishing mark, a banner)

Take the 7th day sabbath out of the law and you now have no idea which god we worship. Certainly not our Creator. We have taken Him out of the law.
So what could we possibly have left? A counterfeit god, sitting in a counterfeit temple with his own counterfeit day of worship which he claims is HIS mark of authority.
Sound familiar?
Click to expand...
Romes challenge is about why Protestants don't obey the Bible, but the RCC also claims Sunday worship is its sign and mark.

Catholic Record (September 1, 1923):
"Sunday is our mark of authority...The [catholic] Church is above the Bible, and this transference of the Sabbath observance is proof of that fact."
Chancellor Albert Smith for Cardinal of Baltimore Archdiocese, letter dated February 10, 1920:
"If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day [which] by God is Saturday. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church."
The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:
"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
 
Not that it proves anything of course, but it just seems curious that scripture is silent with regard to anyone observing the first day of the week for the purpose of rest and worship.
 
TMS said:
The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who can find no warrant in its pages for the change of the day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation,
Click to expand...
The adventests aren't even operating on God's calendar. The modern julian calander we have now is going astray form the original calendar they've had since Adam's time, which was kept by the Hebrews; which has yet been altered as well by the modern Israelites.
Going by the oldest accounts of ancient hebrew lore, sunday is actually the true 7th day of the week.
 
Men are not exalted by proclaiming to be the best. They are honored through simply being childlike.
 
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