Is cessation an observation or theology?

Lamar said:

No.

Christians maintain that the physical supernatural manifestations have ceased because they have ceased.

Insisting that they are still occurring today as they did during the 1st Century is childish. No referring to New Testament examples of these events changes the reality of their cessation. This is the gorilla in the room that most will ignore.

Just as there are people who insist that the earth is flat because of certain verses in the Bible so are the arguments of modern day Pentecostals.

Click to expand...

The Story of Barbara Snyder

The Illness:
Barbara was diagnosed with advanced multiple sclerosis while in high school. Over a decade, her condition deteriorated to the point where she was paralyzed, unable to walk for seven years, reliant on a feeding tube and continuous oxygen, and placed in hospice care.

The Prayers:
A prayer request was broadcasted on a local Christian radio station in Chicago, resulting in more than 450 letters from people stating they were praying for her recovery.The Healing: On Pentecost Sunday in June 1981, while friends were reading prayer letters to her at home, Barbara reported hearing a voice tell her to get up and walk. She immediately stood up, removed her medical equipment, and walked.

The Church and Medical Follow-up:
She and her family went directly to their church that same day so she could walk down the aisle and thank God. Her astonished physicians later examined her and confirmed that her previous severe symptoms and physical deformities had vanished. Her story was later featured by author Lee Strobel in [The Case for Miracles].

Lamar said:

No.

Christians maintain that the physical supernatural manifestations have ceased because they have ceased.

Insisting that they are still occurring today as they did during the 1st Century is childish. No referring to New Testament examples of these events changes the reality of their cessation. This is the gorilla in the room that most will ignore.

Just as there are people who insist that the earth is flat because of certain verses in the Bible so are the arguments of modern day Pentecostals.

Click to expand...

We have verified reports of Works of the Holy Spirit up until the merger of the State and Christianity in 383 AD. Throughout the entire span between 383 AD (shortly after the Council of Constantinople solidified the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Spirit's deity) and 1900 AD, millions of Christians across various traditions continuously claimed personal, mystical, and supernatural experiences with the Holy Spirit. St. Symeon the New Theologian (949–1022 AD): This Eastern Orthodox monk wrote extensively about being physically enveloped by the "Divine Light" of the Holy Spirit. He insisted that a conscious, direct experience of the Holy Spirit was essential for every Christian.The Catholic Mystics: Figures like St. Bernard of Clairvaux (1090–1153) and St. Hildegard von Bingen (1098–1179) recorded visions, ecstatic trances, and "peak experiences" attributed directly to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.The Gift of Tears: A widely documented medieval spiritual phenomenon where believers experienced uncontrollable weeping during prayer, interpreted as a physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit purifying the soul. Followers of Joachim of Fiore (1135–1202) believed human history was divided into three eras. They claimed they were entering the "Age of the Holy Spirit," a time when church structures would give way to direct, universal spiritual revelation.

The Anabaptists (forbearers of the Baptist Church & "Zwickau Prophets" (1520s): During the Protestant Reformation, these radical reformers claimed they received direct visions and commands from the Holy Spirit that superseded or complemented scripture, heavily clashing with mainstream reformers like Martin Luther.

The French Prophets (Camisards/Huguenots): In the late 1600s, a group of French Protestants fleeing persecution experienced dramatic spiritual manifestations. Witnesses documented them falling into trances, prophesying, and speaking in languages they did not know (glossolalia).

Charles Finney (1792–1875): The famous American revivalist explicitly detailed his own "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in 1821, describing it as an overwhelming wave of love that came down like "sheets of liquid electricity. "The Irvingites (1830s): In Scotland and London, followers of Presbyterian minister Edward Irving experienced a sudden outbreak of speaking in tongues and prophetic utterances, convincing them that the apostolic gifts of the Holy Spirit were returning before Christ's second coming.The Holiness Movement (Late 1800s): Figures like A.B. Simpson (founder of the Christian and Missionary Alliance) and R.A. Torrey wrote extensively on the immediate, tangible filling of the Holy Spirit for power, divine healing, and sanctification.

The Catholic Church never denied that the Holy Spirit could work miracles or provide visions. However, it insisted that the Holy Spirit works permanently through the Church hierarchy (the Magisterium).

In short, while the Catholic Church tamed claims of the Holy Spirit by requiring absolute submission to the Pope, the mainstream Protestant Reformers tamed them by shackling the work of the Spirit exclusively to the text of the Bible.

Lamar said:

There is nothing to clarify on my end.

My argument is simple.

Pentecostals are falsely claiming the ability to perform physical supernatural manifestations on par with those of the New Testament.

What part of this is confusing to you? It's only a single 19 word sentence.

BTW, Mormons claim this ability as well. I believe their claims are false as well.

God can and does perform miracles today.

Click to expand...

This is the problem with those who say things like this above.

The word of God never states the Gifts of the Holy Spirit seen in 1cor chapter 12 through 14 have stopped or not for today.

And if one has not seen them, it is that person's issue not the those who have.

They attack what they are ignorant to. They're mad because they know the biblical truth is they are wrong about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

They can't show in the word of God where they have stopped or not for today. Then say they have not seen it therefore it did not happen.

Yet those who have seen them is attacked and lambasted. A double standard. Yet both are opinion of those who have and have not seen.

Both off set each other and we must speak the word of God. Which is the only authority on the topic.

Prove your point with the word of God.

That is your issue.
Attack Pentecostals and their origin, but show in the word of God where they are not for today.
That would something you have yet to do.

CS1 said:

This is the problem with those who say things like this above.

The word of God never states the Gifts of the Holy Spirit seen in 1cor chapter 12 through 14 have stopped or not for today.

And if one has not seen them, it is that person's issue not the those who have.

They attack what they are ignorant to. They're mad because they know the biblical truth is they are wrong about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

They can't show in the word of God where they have stopped or not for today. Then say they have not seen it therefore it did not happen.

Yet those who have seen them is attacked and lambasted. A double standard. Yet both are opinion of those who have and have not seen.

Both off set each other and we must speak the word of God. Which is the only authority on the topic.

Prove your point with the word of God.

That is your issue.
Attack Pentecostals and their origin, but show in the word of God where they are not for today.
That would something you have yet to do.

Click to expand...

I do not "attack" anyone no matter what they believe. It not in my Christian makeup. 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 do not prove that the works or gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped. In fact, these chapters provide instructions on how to use and regulate active spiritual gifts like prophecy, tongues, healing, and discernment within the church. The debate over whether these miraculous gifts continue today rests largely on how theologians interpret the chapters surrounding them—specifically 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, which states that prophecies and tongues will "pass away" or "cease" when "the perfect comes."

As you know, I have posted extensively why I believe the proper rendering of "the perfect comes" has to mean when Jesus returns which Paul expected to happen in his lifetime.

Churchgoer said:

Interesting discussion.

Would you say only doctrine, theology, scripture are needed in a believer life?

Or no matter which denomination, we all need some degree of divine connection?

Click to expand...

Churchgoer:
I appreciate the questions. Before I answer it, let me set the stage for my comments. I believe that by the nature of your question you see the objective as defined by knowledge. i.e. doctrine, theology and scripture. This may indicate that this conceptualization and framework of Christianity is purely a knowledge based vertical relationship between mankind and God. Your summary the "we all need some degree of divine connection" while true is incomplete.

IMHO, Christianity is not so much a way of thinking but a way of living. It matters little what you know or believe if it does not drive continuous life change. Perhaps another analogy might be that we endlessly discuss, study and debate the meaning of a detailed recipe. There are hundreds of theories about it and many think their opinion and the opinion of my group is the only accurate understanding of the recipe......but nobody is interested in using the recipe to create anything. It is just theoretical.

We know that one objective of our "divine connection" is to establish a loving relationship with God. In all the definitions of love humans can experience actions initiate, underpin and validate love. We love by what we do for and with a person we love. If our "theology" is not the input to our behavior than it has no value no matter how "correct it may be, theoretically." The same for our doctrines. Whatever doctrine set you find believable is of little or no value if it does not inform your day to day life, your character and your conscience. Our shared reality is that we rather see a sermon than hear one illustrates my point.

There is a highly significant component of our relationship with God that is entirely horizontal. One one hand we are told "I you say you love God but hate your neighbor, you are a liar. Loving our neighbor is the second most important command from God through Jesus. Yes too many believe their "correct knowledge and accurate faith" are the objectives, they are not. They are either a lamp unto our feet as we walk through life or they are nothing but theories.

When we want to validate whatever constitutes our "divine connection" then let's judge the validity of our doctrines, theology and scriptural knowledge by comparing our relationship with God via 1 Corinthians 13 where love is the objective and it validates faith. We could also use Paul's checklist of how to evaluate our walking around Christianity. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

And then there is an entire chapter in Jesus alone speaks that is the least known, least preached, least taught and least acceptable to most 21st Century theologies and doctrines. Matthew 25:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

biblestudent78 said:

Churchgoer:
I appreciate the questions. Before I answer it, let me set the stage for my comments. I believe that by the nature of your question you see the objective as defined by knowledge. i.e. doctrine, theology and scripture. This may indicate that this conceptualization and framework of Christianity is purely a knowledge based vertical relationship between mankind and God.

Click to expand...

My 1st question is about man and scripture, not necessarily God.
Some may know a lot about scripture, also obey scripture rules.
But not necessarily have vertical true encounter with God.
When I say encounter, as if Jacob wrestling with God, Paul got knocked down from horse by God.

biblestudent78 said:

Your summary the "we all need some degree of divine connection" while true is incomplete.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's also my question. Yes, my summary.

biblestudent78 said:

IMHO, Christianity is not so much a way of thinking but a way of living.

Click to expand...

Agree, living by rules? Or actually living with a Father everyday, literally.

biblestudent78 said:

It matters little what you know or believe if it does not drive continuous life change. Perhaps another analogy might be that we endlessly discuss, study and debate the meaning of a detailed recipe. There are hundreds of theories about it and many think their opinion and the opinion of my group is the only accurate understanding of the recipe......but nobody is interested in using the recipe to create anything. It is just theoretical.

Click to expand...

Agree. For that I do believe the more we live by God, the more God reveal himself to us.

biblestudent78 said:

We know that one objective of our "divine connection" is to establish a loving relationship with God. In all the definitions of love humans can experience actions initiate, underpin and validate love. We love by what we do for and with a person we love. If our "theology" is not the input to our behavior than it has no value no matter how "correct it may be, theoretically." The same for our doctrines. Whatever doctrine set you find believable is of little or no value if it does not inform your day to day life, your character and your conscience. Our shared reality is that we rather see a sermon than hear one illustrates my point.

Click to expand...

Amen. Live it out.

biblestudent78 said:

There is a highly significant component of our relationship with God that is entirely horizontal. One one hand we are told "I you say you love God but hate your neighbor, you are a liar. Loving our neighbor is the second most important command from God through Jesus. Yes too many believe their "correct knowledge and accurate faith" are the objectives, they are not. They are either a lamp unto our feet as we walk through life or they are nothing but theories.

Click to expand...

Very true. Horizontal yes, local church community important.

biblestudent78 said:

When we want to validate whatever constitutes our "divine connection" then let's judge the validity of our doctrines, theology and scriptural knowledge by comparing our relationship with God via 1 Corinthians 13 where love is the objective and it validates faith. We could also use Paul's checklist of how to evaluate our walking around Christianity. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

And then there is an entire chapter in Jesus alone speaks that is the least known, least preached, least taught and least acceptable to most 21st Century theologies and doctrines. Matthew 25:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Click to expand...

I hear you. I believe this is taught.

Thank you for your response.

Lamar said:

You forgot the many Mormon verified physical supernatural manifestations.

Their miracles put yours to shame and they are not just claims of the past but are ongoing.

They are speaking in tongues, having visions, healings and raising the dead.

Click to expand...

It is not my intention to obfuscate anyone or anybody that claims a "supernatural" experience. My point is that while after 72 yrs of Christianity, I have not personally seen the validity of "supernatural manifestations."

biblestudent78 said:

I do not "attack" anyone no matter what they believe. It not in my Christian makeup. 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 do not prove that the works or gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped. In fact, these chapters provide instructions on how to use and regulate active spiritual gifts like prophecy, tongues, healing, and discernment within the church. The debate over whether these miraculous gifts continue today rests largely on how theologians interpret the chapters surrounding them—specifically 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, which states that prophecies and tongues will "pass away" or "cease" when "the perfect comes."

As you know, I have posted extensively why I believe the proper rendering of "the perfect comes" has to mean when Jesus returns which Paul expected to happen in his lifetime.

Click to expand...

hope you know i was not speaking to you in my post. 2. 1cor chapter 13 to 14 are unit chapter's. Meaning the context is with all three chapters not in a verse in chapter 13 or 12 and 14. I agree with your position.

Lamar said:

This is the problem with those who say things like this above.

The word of God never states the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit seen in 1st Cor. chapter 12 through 14 will continue until today.

And if one who claims to have seen these manifestations but cannot prove the event happened, it is that person's issue not the rest of us.

They attack those who question their claims. They're mad because they know there is no evidence of what they are claiming.

They can't show in the word of God where these manifestations were not meant to cease. They claim to see these manifestations but it was always yesterday.

Yet those who simply ask why there is no proof to their claims are attacked and lambasted. A double standard. They turn a blind eye to the total lack of prima facie.

They believe claims of physical supernatural manifestations are just as valid as evidence of physical supernatural manifestations. They will then deny the validity of the claims of Mormons and other non-Christians simply because.

So prove your claims and stop insisting that there needs to be a verse regarding every absurd claim someone can make.

That is your issue.
No one is attacking the Pentecostals or their origin, what is being discussed is the lack of physical evidence of their claims of physical events.
And this is something you have yet to do.

Click to expand...

You know full well, you're being dishonest. The gift of the Holy Spirit and empowerment is promise to all those the Lord Shall call.

You created a false narrative. I never used he term "physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit." those are your description not mine.

"they believe claims of physical supernatural manifestations are just as valid as evidence of physical supernatural manifestations."
This is so foolish its like an oxymoron. First off I don't follow LDS as you do. So you can address them if you like. You are hater. And that ok. I told you before. You most likely go to an all one type of class of people listen to a dead message and hate your own life.

YOU basically calling Jesus a liar as he said i Acts 1:8
and As Peter said this is that

4 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’


Then Peter said in verse 38

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

The empowering of the Holy Spirit is a promise to all who the Lord Shall call. Jesus is still saving today maybe not in your church, so the promise is still validate. Paul said I do not want toy to be ignorant concerning Spiritual gifts. Which he taught in three chapters.

IF you are not seeing this maybe you are in a dead fellowship.

CS1 said:

You created a false narrative. I never used he term "physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit." those are your description not mine.

Click to expand...

It seems you are the one creating the false narrative. Have you not read the very first line of the OP?

It clearly states physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Are you really that unaware of what this whole thread is about?

CS1, you really do have mental issues.

CS1 said:

You know full well, you're being dishonest. The gift of the Holy Spirit and empowerment is promise to all those the Lord Shall call.

You created a false narrative. I never used he term "physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit." those are your description not mine.

"they believe claims of physical supernatural manifestations are just as valid as evidence of physical supernatural manifestations."
This is so foolish its like an oxymoron. First off I don't follow LDS as you do. So you can address them if you like. You are hater. And that ok. I told you before. You most likely go to an all one type of class of people listen to a dead message and hate your own life.

YOU basically calling Jesus a liar as he said i Acts 1:8
and As Peter said this is that

4 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’


Then Peter said in verse 38

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

The empowering of the Holy Spirit is a promise to all who the Lord Shall call. Jesus is still saving today maybe not in your church, so the promise is still validate. Paul said I do not want toy to be ignorant concerning Spiritual gifts. Which he taught in three chapters.

IF you are not seeing this maybe you are in a dead fellowship.

Click to expand...

The passage you quoted is based on a modern Charismatic/Pentecostal polemic system — a debate style that treats Acts 2, Joel 2, and 1 Corinthians 12–14 as universal, timeless guarantees of Spirit empowerment for every believer, and uses emotionally charged rhetoric (“you’re dishonest,” “dead fellowship,” “calling Jesus a liar”) to defend that position. It is not built on Hebrew, Greek, or historical exegesis, but on a contemporary experiential theology that assumes all Spirit manifestations described in Acts must continue identically today. This system interprets Scripture through the lens of modern spiritual experience rather than through the linguistic, historical, or canonical context of the biblical text.

• Gordon Fee, Gospel and Spirit — explains how Pentecostalism universalizes Acts 2.
• Craig Keener, Acts: An Exegetical Commentary — documents modern Pentecostal readings vs. historical readings.
• William W. Menzies, Understanding the Spirit — outlines Pentecostal doctrine of “subsequence” and universal empowerment.
• Amos Yong, Spirit Poured Out on All Flesh — explicitly argues Joel 2 applies universally today.
• Stanley Horton, What the Bible Says About the Holy Spirit — classic Pentecostal view that Acts 2 is normative.

These authors openly state that their interpretation is modern, not ancient.

OMC said:

The passage you quoted is based on a modern Charismatic/Pentecostal polemic system — a debate style that treats Acts 2, Joel 2, and 1 Corinthians 12–14 as universal, timeless guarantees of Spirit empowerment for every believer, and uses emotionally charged rhetoric (“you’re dishonest,” “dead fellowship,” “calling Jesus a liar”) to defend that position. It is not built on Hebrew, Greek, or historical exegesis, but on a contemporary experiential theology that assumes all Spirit manifestations described in Acts must continue identically today. This system interprets Scripture through the lens of modern spiritual experience rather than through the linguistic, historical, or canonical context of the biblical text.

• Gordon Fee, Gospel and Spirit — explains how Pentecostalism universalizes Acts 2.
• Craig Keener, Acts: An Exegetical Commentary — documents modern Pentecostal readings vs. historical readings.
• William W. Menzies, Understanding the Spirit — outlines Pentecostal doctrine of “subsequence” and universal empowerment.
• Amos Yong, Spirit Poured Out on All Flesh — explicitly argues Joel 2 applies universally today.
• Stanley Horton, What the Bible Says About the Holy Spirit — classic Pentecostal view that Acts 2 is normative.

These authors openly state that their interpretation is modern, not ancient.

Click to expand...

well lets look at your standard and rule of how the Holy Spirit must do as you say, " must continue identically today."
Did your standard for the Holy Spirit happen in the following aeras of the book of Acts?

1. The House of Cornelious there was no mighty rush of wind or cloven tongues of Fire. No hands laid on them
2. Paul did not have a Apostles lay hands on him, but a disciple named Ananias No cloven tongues of fire, no rushing mighty wind.
3. The Disciples in Ephesus hands laid on them no cloven tongues of fire or Wind recorded

"This system interprets Scripture through the lens of modern spiritual experience rather than through the linguistic, historical, or canonical context of the biblical text."
Does it?
let me quote for you, Dr. Horton:

“Although doctrine should not be based on isolated fragments of Scripture, it can be based on substantial, implied truth. The doctrine of the Trinity is based not on a declarative statement, but on a comparison of Scripture passages relating to the Godhead” (Horton, 2020, p. 140).

He goes on to say just as the doctrine of the Trinity, the teaching of tongues as evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit is also based on substantial portion of Scripture that speaks on the topic.

Your Standard is the same for the Trinity, or you don't hold to that Modern Term for the Godhead?

TrustandObey said:

It seems you are the one creating the false narrative. Have you not read the very first line of the OP?

It clearly states physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Are you really that unaware of what this whole thread is about?

CS1, you really do have mental issues.

Click to expand...

TrustandObey

the opening post by Lemar was "I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament."
Yes i am aware are you? If I have a mental issue, you have a cognitive dilemma. Because the originator of this thread DID NOT USE one verse to support both of his claims in his opening post. They are opinionated. he has this quote:

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.
yes amen! You do Lemar AND do so with the Word of God support your claim with the text and passage you say are lacking in context to both claims :
"It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist."

Why? Because you have not seen it.

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.


What Scripture did you look at what was your mode of proper exegesis of the text you say lacks support for the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today?

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

get hot Lemar, maybe you can help him TrustandObey. But take your med's guys.

CS1 said:

well lets look at your standard and rule of how the Holy Spirit must do as you say, " must continue identically today."
Did your standard for the Holy Spirit happen in the following aeras of the book of Acts?

1. The House of Cornelious there was no mighty rush of wind or cloven tongues of Fire. No hands laid on them
2. Paul did not have a Apostles lay hands on him, but a disciple named Ananias No cloven tongues of fire, no rushing mighty wind.
3. The Disciples in Ephesus hands laid on them no cloven tongues of fire or Wind recorded

"This system interprets Scripture through the lens of modern spiritual experience rather than through the linguistic, historical, or canonical context of the biblical text."
Does it?
let me quote for you, Dr. Horton:

“Although doctrine should not be based on isolated fragments of Scripture, it can be based on substantial, implied truth. The doctrine of the Trinity is based not on a declarative statement, but on a comparison of Scripture passages relating to the Godhead” (Horton, 2020, p. 140).

He goes on to say just as the doctrine of the Trinity, the teaching of tongues as evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit is also based on substantial portion of Scripture that speaks on the topic.

Your Standard is the same for the Trinity, or you don't hold to that Modern Term for the Godhead?

Click to expand...

*No, Scripture does not teach that the Holy Spirit must repeat Acts 2 identically in every outpouring. Acts itself disproves that idea. Cornelius, Paul, and the Ephesian disciples all receive the Spirit in ways that differ from Pentecost — no wind, no fire, no tongues of flame, and sometimes no laying on of hands. The Pentecostal claim that “the Spirit must act the same way today” is not based on the linguistic or historical context of Acts, but on a modern experiential system. The Trinity is built on canonical comparison of Scripture; the Pentecostal doctrine of tongues‑as‑initial‑evidence is built on selective narrative patterning, which is not the same hermeneutical method.

OMC said:

*No, Scripture does not teach that the Holy Spirit must repeat Acts 2 identically in every outpouring. Acts itself disproves that idea. Cornelius, Paul, and the Ephesian disciples all receive the Spirit in ways that differ from Pentecost — no wind, no fire, no tongues of flame, and sometimes no laying on of hands. The Pentecostal claim that “the Spirit must act the same way today” is not based on the linguistic or historical context of Acts, but on a modern experiential system. The Trinity is built on canonical comparison of Scripture; the Pentecostal doctrine of tongues‑as‑initial‑evidence is built on selective narrative patterning, which is not the same hermeneutical method.

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No, Pentecostals do not "claim that “the Spirit must act the same way today”.

Some groups do, mainly Oneness. The initial evidence that one has be baptized in the Holy Spirit as seen in the Book of Acts was speaking in tongues or prophesying. You say that the Trinity is built on Canonical comparison?

The word Trinity not even in the Bible.

Its Theological concept.

The initial evidence is built on those in the book Acts who spoke in tongues or prophesied and those words are used in the New Testament and the Old Testament too. WE see them.

All who received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit either spoke in tongues or prophesied.

Your opinion of "built on selective narrative patterning, which is not the same hermeneutical method." You say this from your bias. Hermeneutical method was followed. The authorial intent from Luke 24:49, Acts 1:8. Acts chapter 2, and 1corintians chapter 12 through 14. And many other text.

The normative of the empowering of The Holy Spirit in the Church to all believers happened over and over again.

It was not until the establishment of the empire church after the persecution of the church had stopped around 500 AD. This we see after the RCC came to be, less moves of the Spirit as what is known as the "Dark Ages " came to be.

Due to a water down Gospel and paganism entered the church. The only two denominations were RCC and Eastern Orthodox 500 AD to 1500 AD. After Protestantism took hold.

So called “modernism” took hold of many churches, denying the resurrection and divinity of Christ, Biblical miracles, creation, and the sexual morality taught in the gospel.

The idea of today the gifts of the Holy Spirit as we see in the book of Acts at the birth of the church not happening, is an effect not a cause from an establishment of watered down Gospel and men trying to control the people to fleece the flock. That led to what was known as the Reformation. Which from that time we had what was known as awakening and movements. They are documented through history. Long before 1890.

CS1 said:

No, Pentecostals do not "claim that “the Spirit must act the same way today”.

Some groups do, mainly Oneness. The initial evidence that one has be baptized in the Holy Spirit as seen in the Book of Acts was speaking in tongues or prophesying. You say that the Trinity is built on Canonical comparison?

The word Trinity not even in the Bible.

Its Theological concept.

The initial evidence is built on those in the book Acts who spoke in tongues or prophesied and those words are used in the New Testament and the Old Testament too. WE see them.

All who received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit either spoke in tongues or prophesied.

Your opinion of "built on selective narrative patterning, which is not the same hermeneutical method." You say this from your bias. Hermeneutical method was followed. The authorial intent from Luke 24:49, Acts 1:8. Acts chapter 2, and 1corintians chapter 12 through 14. And many other text.

The normative of the empowering of The Holy Spirit in the Church to all believers happened over and over again.

It was not until the establishment of the empire church after the persecution of the church had stopped around 500 AD. This we see after the RCC came to be, less moves of the Spirit as what is known as the "Dark Ages " came to be.

Due to a water down Gospel and paganism entered the church. The only two denominations were RCC and Eastern Orthodox 500 AD to 1500 AD. After Protestantism took hold.

So called “modernism” took hold of many churches, denying the resurrection and divinity of Christ, Biblical miracles, creation, and the sexual morality taught in the gospel.

The idea of today the gifts of the Holy Spirit as we see in the book of Acts at the birth of the church not happening, is an effect not a cause from an establishment of watered down Gospel and men trying to control the people to fleece the flock. That led to what was known as the Reformation. Which from that time we had what was known as awakening and movements. They are documented through history. Long before 1890.

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You’re giving me a long historical explanation for why Pentecostalism believes what it believes, but none of that actually answers the exegetical point I made.
My argument wasn’t about the history of the RCC, Protestantism, awakenings, or modernism — it was about the hermeneutical method used to claim that tongues are the normative initial evidence of Spirit baptism.
And yes, that method is selective narrative patterning, because it takes a handful of descriptive episodes in Acts and elevates them into a universal doctrine, even though Acts itself shows variety, not uniformity.

You say “all who received the empowerment of the Spirit spoke in tongues or prophesied.”
That is simply not true.
Acts 8 records Samaritans receiving the Spirit with no tongues mentioned.
Acts 9 records Paul receiving the Spirit with no tongues mentioned.
Acts 10 includes tongues, yes — but
Acts 19 includes prophecy.
And 1 Corinthians 12 explicitly says not all speak in tongues.
That alone destroys the claim of “initial evidence.” A doctrine cannot be built on a pattern that the New Testament itself says is not universal.

You appeal to Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8, but those passages speak of power, not tongues.
You appeal to 1 Corinthians 12–14, but Paul’s entire argument is that the Spirit distributes gifts diversely, not uniformly.
You appeal to church history, but church history is not the hermeneutical authority — Scripture is.

And yes, the Trinity is a theological term, but the doctrine is built on canonical synthesis across the entire Bible — not on three narrative episodes. That’s the difference. The Trinity is derived from all Scripture; initial‑evidence tongues is derived from selective Scripture.

You can give me the history of the RCC, the Dark Ages, Protestantism, awakenings, and modernism — but none of that changes the fact that your doctrinal claim requires Acts to teach a uniform pattern that Acts itself does not teach.
Until you can show, from the text, that tongues are always present when the Spirit is given, and that Paul’s explicit statement “not all speak in tongues” somehow means “all must speak in tongues,” your position remains historical explanation, not biblical exegesis.