Are you a monergist or a synergist?

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Which are you? Please vote only once and simply add 1 to the current total for what you choose.

  • Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
  • Poll closed .
Cameron143 ... I know you prefer to have your full post quoted, but I only wanted to respond to this point:

I believe God is much more active in the affairs of man than most people know, and I believe many miss this because their relationship with God is not as intimate as it could be. I don't say this critically, but because I believe there is much more available to Christians than they have yet come to know.
Fully agree.

Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

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All great material, but all of it immaterial to my particular argument. God doesn't simply reign over biblical history, but of all of history.
Were you not referring to "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea"? Did I misunderstand your question?

You asked:


That's correct.

Did you notice what occurred in Daniel 7:2 before the beasts came up out of the sea in 7:3?​

I responded that "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea" are not mentioned in the interpretation provided in Daniel 7:15-27.


I asked:


Have you read the prayer in Daniel 9? The prayer reveals the reason the nations were allowed to rise up against Israel.​

Have you read the prayer in Daniel 9? Is that "immaterial to [your] particular argument"?

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Were you not referring to "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea"? Did I misunderstand your question?

You asked:


That's correct.​
Did you notice what occurred in Daniel 7:2 before the beasts came up out of the sea in 7:3?​

I responded that "the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea" are not mentioned in the interpretation provided in Daniel 7:15-27.


I asked:


Have you read the prayer in Daniel 9? The prayer reveals the reason the nations were allowed to rise up against Israel.​

Have you read the prayer in Daniel 9? Is that "immaterial to [your] particular argument"?

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The four winds of heaven represents the activity of God. He is responsible for those civilizations coming into existence. The point was that God is intimately involved in the affairs of man and directing the course of human history. It was true then and it continues to be true. This is both true on a macro level with nations, as well as on a micro level regarding individuals. And just because it isn't always obvious, this doesn't mean it is not occurring.
 
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Since I advocate that grace is a manifestation of God's power, I really don't understand your criticism.

Grace and peace.
Please read what I said about how God implements that power in saving a soul.
 
Please read what I said about how God implements that power in saving a soul.
I've read your position many times. I reject the prevenient grace argument, but do agree that grace is the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual.
 
I've read your position many times. I reject the prevenient grace argument, but do agree that grace is the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual.
Go ahead. Reject it. What matters is that you heard it and understood what was said.
 
What matters is that we magnify Christ, glorify God, and work to advance God's kingdom.

Believing sound doctrine and being able to explain it is what glorifies Christ.

Just repeating a correct premise?
But without being able to correctly explain it?
Is not so good.
 
The desire to honor the Father, Son, and Spirit is evident in what you’ve written, but several parts of your explanation merge roles Scripture keeps distinct.
The Spirit is never described as a portal for the Father; He is Himself God, a distinct Person who indwells, teaches, and seals, not a mechanism through which the Father enters a believer.
Isaiah 63 does not identify the Holy Spirit as the “Angel of His Presence”; the passage distinguishes the two, with the Angel acting and the Spirit being grieved, which aligns the Angel with the pre‑incarnate Son rather than the Spirit.
Jesus is indeed filled with the Spirit, but He is the Temple because the fullness of deity dwells in Him bodily, not because He is indwelled. His being “in the Father” is an eternal relational reality, not the result of Spirit‑indwelling.
The Church is His body in a relational and functional sense, not His glorified resurrection body, which He already possessed at His rising. Scripture says believers are temples of the Holy Spirit, not temples of the Son, and while the Father, Son, and Spirit work in perfect unity, their roles in indwelling, revealing, and empowering remain distinct.

The Holy Spirit cannot be the Almighty God.
The Holy Spirit is the operative power, presence, or mind of God rather than a separate, co-equal person who is Almighty God.
1.
Matthew 24:36 — Lack of Omniscience Regarding the End Times
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

If the Holy Spirit were a distinct person co-equal with Almighty God, the Spirit would be omniscient and possess this knowledge. The text explicitly limits knowledge of the final hour exclusively to the Father ("my Father only"), excluding the Son, the angels, and any separate Holy Spirit entity.

2.
John 16:13 — Subordinate Authority and Speech

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

Almighty God is the ultimate authority and does not depend on an external source for truth or instruction. This passage states that the Spirit cannot speak independently ("shall not speak of himself"), but acts as a messenger who only repeats what he hears from another authority.

3.
John 17:3 — The Father Designated as the "Only True God"

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

In this prayer, Jesus defines eternal life through knowing two entities: the Father as "the only true God" and Jesus Christ as the one sent. The Holy Spirit is entirely absent from this definition of the true Godhead.

4. 1 Corinthians 8:6 ---Explicit Identification of the One God

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Paul restricts the identity of the "one God" specifically to "the Father." While Jesus is identified as the "one Lord," the Holy Spirit is not named as God, nor included within the framework of divine sovereignty presented here.


5. Romans 8: 26-27 ---Intercession to God

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Intercession is by definition made by a subordinate party on behalf of another toward a higher authority. Furthermore, verse 26 uses the neuter pronoun ("the Spirit itself"), which critics highlight as indicative of God's internal presence or power rather than an autonomous divine person.


6. 1 Corinthians 2: 11 ---Analogy to the Human Spirit

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

Paul draws a direct parallel between the "spirit of man" and the "Spirit of God." A human spirit is not an autonomous, distinct person from the human, but the inner consciousness and mind of that individual. This demonstrates that the Spirit is God's own mind and essence, not a distinct Almighty being.


7. Luke 1: 35---The Holy Spirit as the " Power of the Highest"

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

The angel equates "The Holy Ghost" with "the power of the Highest" through Hebrew poetic parallelism. If the Holy Spirit were a distinct third person who caused the conception of Jesus, Jesus would logically be the Son of the Holy Spirit; instead, Scripture uniformly identifies him as the Son of the Father.


8. Acts 2: 33---An imparted Gift Rather Than an Almighty Being

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Peter describes the Holy Spirit as something "received" by Christ from the Father and subsequently "shed forth" (poured out) onto believers. Passages that describe the Spirit being poured out, divided, or given in portions are interpreted as describing God's divine energy and gift, rather than an indivisible, sovereign Almighty person.


9. Revelation 5: 13 ---Omission from Heavenly Worship

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that is in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

In John's vision of universal heavenly praise, worship and supreme authority are directed only to two: "him that sitteth upon the throne" (the Father) and "the Lamb" (Jesus Christ). No third throne, person, or equal worship is accorded to the Holy Spirit.


10. John 14: 26---Sent by Another Authority

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Throughout Scripture, the sender possesses authority over the one sent. John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. The Father determines when and how the Holy Spirit is dispatched, indicating a subordinate relationship inconsistent with absolute supremacy as Almighty God.
 
The Holy Spirit cannot be the Almighty God.
The Holy Spirit is the operative power, presence, or mind of God rather than a separate, co-equal person who is Almighty God.
1.
Matthew 24:36 — Lack of Omniscience Regarding the End Times
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

If the Holy Spirit were a distinct person co-equal with Almighty God, the Spirit would be omniscient and possess this knowledge. The text explicitly limits knowledge of the final hour exclusively to the Father ("my Father only"), excluding the Son, the angels, and any separate Holy Spirit entity.
Acts 5:3-4​
But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to
keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did
it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that
you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”

Note, what Peter said, please!

Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?

You have not lied to man but to God.”

.........
 
Believing sound doctrine and being able to explain it is what glorifies Christ.

Just repeating a correct premise?
But without being able to correctly explain it?
Is not so good.
Your own comments should give you pause. Still no discernment or self awareness.
 
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The four winds of heaven represents the activity of God. He is responsible for those civilizations coming into existence.
Those civilizations were in existence prior to the writing of Daniel ... Babylon goes all the way back to Genesis 10:10 (Babel). In Daniel 1:1, the word Babylon is translated from the Hebrew word bāḇel.

The first mention of the Medes in Scripture is when the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried the Israelites away to the cities of the Medes (2 Kings 17:6) ... approximately 170 years before Daniel's vision recorded in Daniel 7.

Persia is first mentioned in Scripture in Ezekiel 38:5 ... approximately 30 years before Daniel's vision recorded in Daniel 7.

Greece is first mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 10:2 (Javan) as part of the "isles of the gentiles" (Genesis 10:5). In Daniel 8:21, Daniel 10:20, Daniel 11:2, the word Grecia is translated from the Hebrew word yāvān (Javan).





The point was that God is intimately involved in the affairs of man and directing the course of human history. It was true then and it continues to be true. This is both true on a macro level with nations, as well as on a micro level regarding individuals. And just because it isn't always obvious, this doesn't mean it is not occurring.
I agree with you as far as God watching over the affairs of mankind ... all of creation for that matter.

I just do not know that it was (or to this day is) God Who stirred/stirs up the conflict between the nations or whether it was (or to this day is) satan who stirred/stirs up.

In reading the interpretation of the vision in Daniel 7, if/when we take it that God is the One Who stirred up, then, we've got God at war with His saints (Daniel 7:21; Daniel 7:25).

If/when we take it that satan is the one stirring up, then we've got satan at war with God's saints and God either allowing that to occur (as shown in Daniel 9:11-12; 2 Chronicles 36:5-21) or God staying (with His mighty Arm) the activities of satan as shown in 2 Chronicles 20:22-24, 2 Kings 7:6-7, 2 Kings 19:32-35.


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Cameron143 said:
The question isn't can man respond to God. The question has always been what the response will be. Man continually responds to God, ignorantly or knowingly.​


reneweddaybyday said:
What response is done "ignorantly"?

What response is done "knowingly"?​


In the Spirit or apart from the Spirit.
Are you saying that "in the Spirit" is done "ignorantly" and "apart from the Spirit" is done knowingly?

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Those civilizations were in existence prior to the writing of Daniel ... Babylon goes all the way back to Genesis 10:10 (Babel). In Daniel 1:1, the word Babylon is translated from the Hebrew word bāḇel.

The first mention of the Medes in Scripture is when the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried the Israelites away to the cities of the Medes (2 Kings 17:6) ... approximately 170 years before Daniel's vision recorded in Daniel 7.

Persia is first mentioned in Scripture in Ezekiel 38:5 ... approximately 30 years before Daniel's vision recorded in Daniel 7.

Greece is first mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 10:2 (Javan) as part of the "isles of the gentiles" (Genesis 10:5). In Daniel 8:21, Daniel 10:20, Daniel 11:2, the word Grecia is translated from the Hebrew word yāvān (Javan).





I agree with you as far as God watching over the affairs of mankind ... all of creation for that matter.

I just do not know that it was (or to this day is) God Who stirred/stirs up the conflict between the nations or whether it was (or to this day is) satan who stirred/stirs up.

In reading the interpretation of the vision in Daniel 7, if/when we take it that God is the One Who stirred up, then, we've got God at war with His saints (Daniel 7:21; Daniel 7:25).

If/when we take it that satan is the one stirring up, then we've got satan at war with God's saints and God either allowing that to occur (as shown in Daniel 9:11-12; 2 Chronicles 36:5-21) or God staying (with His mighty Arm) the activities of satan as shown in 2 Chronicles 20:22-24, 2 Kings 7:6-7, 2 Kings 19:32-35.


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God brought those civilizations to their zeniths and then brought them low. God isn't just watching over the affairs of mankind; He is directing the affairs of mankind.
 
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Cameron143 said:
The question isn't can man respond to God. The question has always been what the response will be. Man continually responds to God, ignorantly or knowingly.​


reneweddaybyday said:
What response is done "ignorantly"?​
What response is done "knowingly"?​



Are you saying that "in the Spirit" is done "ignorantly" and "apart from the Spirit" is done knowingly?

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No. The opposite.
 
When I read Romans 5:6–8, I don’t see Paul narrowing Christ’s death to a pre‑selected subset of humanity; I see him describing the moral condition of humanity when Christ died — “weak,” “ungodly,” “sinners.” Paul doesn’t say, “Christ died for the elect while they were sinners.” He says Christ died for sinners, and he uses that universal category deliberately. The “we” in Romans 5 is not a secret code for “the elect”; it’s Paul and his readers as representatives of the human condition. If Paul wanted to restrict the referent, he could have done so explicitly. He didn’t.

And when I read Romans 1:7, I don’t treat “called saints” as a definition of who Christ died for; I treat it as a description of the audience of the letter. Paul is writing to believers, so of course he says “us.” That doesn’t mean Christ died only for them. Paul uses “we” and “us” all throughout his letters to refer to believers, but he also says Christ died for all (2 Cor. 5:14–15) and gave Himself a ransom for all (1 Tim. 2:6). I’m not going to let a pronoun override explicit statements.

When I read John 3:16, I don’t redefine kosmos to mean “elect from every ethnic group.” John uses kosmos consistently to mean the world in its fallen totality — the world God loves, the world Christ came to save, the world that lies in darkness. The verse itself says the gift is given to the world, and the life is received by the believer. I refuse to collapse the gift and the reception into the same category just because a system wants them merged.

And when I read Mark 16:15, I don’t treat the universal command to preach as a mere “duty” because God secretly decreed a limited group. Jesus doesn’t say, “Preach to everyone because you don’t know who the elect are.” He says, “Preach to every creature.” I’m not going to insert a hidden decree into the Great Commission.

As for Matthew 23:37, I don’t rewrite Jesus’ lament into a system‑safe category. Jesus says He wanted to gather them, and they were not willing. He doesn’t say, “I never intended to gather you because you’re not elect.” He doesn’t say, “My decretive will was different from My revealed will.” That distinction is theological scaffolding, not exegesis. I let Jesus’ words stand as spoken.

So when someone tells me Romans 5 is about “the elect,” John 3:16 is about “groups,” Mark 16:15 is about “duty,” and Matthew 23:37 is about “decretive will,” I simply point out that none of those claims come from the text itself. They come from a system that must reinterpret plain language to protect its grid. I’m not denying God’s sovereignty; I’m denying the right to rewrite Scripture so it fits a decree‑diagram.
Your interpretation of the scriptures above doesn't make any sense, because you failed to consider their intended context and what the rest of the Bible says about the matter.

The Bible teaches that making human choice or cooperation the decisive factor in salvation turns faith into a cooperative work, also known as the Arminian "saved by works" version of the gospel.

The Bible reveals that salvation belongs completely to God's sovereign grace rather than human decision. You claim that you're "not denying Gods sovereignty", while you proclaim the "saved by works" version of the gospel. You can't have it both ways, salvation is either "by grace" or it is "by works".


Romans 9:16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
This verse shows that human volition ("will") and striving ("exertion") are explicitly excluded as the root cause of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
This passage asserts that even the faith required for salvation is a divine gift, preventing any human contribution from becoming a point of pride.

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
This verse reveals that humans cannot come to Christ on their own unless an antecedent, effective drawing by God takes place.

Romans 8:29–30: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... And those whom he predestined he also called..."
The word "foreknew" here is not describing a passive foresight of human faith, but as a relational, sovereign fore-loving and electing choice by God.








 
Your interpretation of the scriptures above doesn't make any sense, because you failed to consider their intended context and what the rest of the Bible says about the matter.

The Bible teaches that making human choice or cooperation the decisive factor in salvation turns faith into a cooperative work, also known as the Arminian "saved by works" version of the gospel.

The Bible reveals that salvation belongs completely to God's sovereign grace rather than human decision. You claim that you're "not denying Gods sovereignty", while you proclaim the "saved by works" version of the gospel. You can't have it both ways, salvation is either "by grace" or it is "by works".


Romans 9:16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
This verse shows that human volition ("will") and striving ("exertion") are explicitly excluded as the root cause of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
This passage asserts that even the faith required for salvation is a divine gift, preventing any human contribution from becoming a point of pride.

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
This verse reveals that humans cannot come to Christ on their own unless an antecedent, effective drawing by God takes place.

Romans 8:29–30: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... And those whom he predestined he also called..."
The word "foreknew" here is not describing a passive foresight of human faith, but as a relational, sovereign fore-loving and electing choice by God.








Salvation is entirely by God’s sovereign grace, but your conclusion that a God‑enabled human response turns the gospel into “saved by works” is not what Scripture teaches.
The Bible consistently distinguishes the cause of salvation (God’s mercy) from the means of receiving salvation (faith), and it never equates the means with the cause.
Paul excludes human beings as the originators of salvation, not the participants in receiving it.
Faith is repeatedly contrasted with works, never classified as one.
So yes—salvation is by grace alone, and the human act of believing does not transform grace into works, because Scripture itself refuses to collapse those categories.