Does lack of Faith produce symbolism?

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tttallison

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Yes, there is symbolism in the bible. A prime example is Jesus representing a lamb. But isn’t the symbolism always identified as symbolism by the bible?

Many of our translators of today’s English translations proclaimed the story of creation as fairy tales.

In Daniel the seventieth week becomes 70 weeks plus two thousand plus or minus.

In Matthew 24 this generation becomes any generation.

In Revelation 20 the Millennium becomes symbolic.

Symbolism occurs every time there is a question of how some passage fits into the narrative that one has been taught, or have come to believe. Why can’t we just pass over scripture that doesn’t fit our narrative, without resorting to symbolism?
 
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what the larger point you're trying to say is. I'm not seeing the correlation in your examples and how that has to do with lack of faith.

Unless by your last 2 sentences means you're advocating to literally just ignore scripture. If you want to do that, you can at your own peril.
 
I see what you're saying. In my experience with certain denominations and teachings, oversymbolization can occur when someone allows the narrative of the world's truth to shape the narrative of the Bible's truth. And this is simply because it doesn’t feel comfortable to have your belief labeled as wrong or have it challenged. For example, a Christian may be tempted to believe the creation story is symbolic because it doesn't fit the narrative and "evidence" modern science pushes. It's easier and safer, ego wise, to do that than to go against millions of people who claim to have "evidence" that is contrary to what Scripture says; but then it puts God in a box twhere He has to operate according to what man deems logically/possible. People's faith and sense of identity gets shaken when they feel what they believe in is proven wrong, so theyll go to any length to please both. Of course in some cases, some groups oversymbolize things because they have an agenda for control.

In all, I do agree with you that certain things in Scripture are symbolic while other things are to be taken literal. I think we should let Scripture explain which parts are what and us not guess. We gotta stand firm in what Scripture says and not doubt or be afraid when the world claims something else. Or else we'll be like the doubtful, double-minded, man in James 1:6-8
 
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Also, some teachers lack humility and rather twist Scripture to fit a certain narrative rather than just simply admit they do not know what it means.
 
tttallison said:
Yes, there is symbolism in the bible. A prime example is Jesus representing a lamb. But isn’t the symbolism always identified as symbolism by the bible?

Many of our translators of today’s English translations proclaimed the story of creation as fairy tales.

In Daniel the seventieth week becomes 70 weeks plus two thousand plus or minus.

In Matthew 24 this generation becomes any generation.

In Revelation 20 the Millennium becomes symbolic.

Symbolism occurs every time there is a question of how some passage fits into the narrative that one has been taught, or have come to believe. Why can’t we just pass over scripture that doesn’t fit our narrative, without resorting to symbolism?
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I use Bible Hub. There are 30 or more translations. I've not seen any suggestion that Genesis is considered symbolism. I'd be interested to know which translators subscribe to the "symbolism" point of view.

A number of people on the forum reject the literal interpretation of Genesis. I'm not one of them.

As far as Matthew 24 goes, a number of commentators state that the disciples asked two questions. "This generation" is an answer to one of the questions, not both. I'm inclined to that view.
 
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Jesus in the flesh tried to teach me symbolic references to a carnal minded me many years ago before being saved and I didn't believe him.
 
The lack of faith produces unfaithfulness: And if we lack faith, we must more abundantly hear the Word of God, seeing that faith cometh only by hearing the Word of God.
 
Delvianna said:
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what the larger point you're trying to say is. I'm not seeing the correlation in your examples and how that has to do with lack of faith.

Unless by your last 2 sentences means you're advocating to literally just ignore scripture. If you want to do that, you can at your own peril.
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Are the days of creation a 24 hour period, or is it symbolic?
Did woman came from a rib of Adam?
Was the seventy weeks of Daniel 490 consecutive years?

You can go on and on. Many passages are said to be symbolic rather than literal. It is my position that it is a lack of faith. I am not saying there is no symbolism in the bible, but the text will tell us if it is symbolic.
 
Gideon300 said:
I use Bible Hub. There are 30 or more translations. I've not seen any suggestion that Genesis is considered symbolism. I'd be interested to know which translators subscribe to the "symbolism" point of view.
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Taken from ---------Life and Letters of J.A.F. Hort volume I page 78. Letter addressed to Mr. John Ellerton dated July 6, 1848.

"I am inclined to think that no such state as Eden ever existed, and that Adam's fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants," (J.A.F. Hort)


Members of the Editorial Committee of the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament comprise:

UBS1, 1966 ------ Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce Metzger, Allen Wikgren.
UBS2, 1968 ------ Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce Metzger, Allen Wikgren.
UBS3, 1975 ------ Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, Bruce Metzger, Allen Wikgren.
UBS4, 1993 ------ Barbara Aland, Kurt Aland, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, Bruce Metzger.

Almost all the new English translation relied on the work of this Committee.
Bruce Metzger produced the THE NEW OXFORD ANNOTATED BIBLE/REVISED STANDARD VERSION, along with Herbert G. May. Bruce Metzger also produced the Condensed Readers Digest Bible.

Metzger specialized in textual criticism and Bible translation and chaired committees for the Revised Standard Version and New Revised Standard Version. He served on the board of the American Bible Society and United Bible Societies. He was elected to the American Philosophical Society in 1986. Metzger is among the most influential New Testament scholars of the 20th century.

In the Introduction To The Old Testament, in the New Oxford Annotated Bible we find this statement. "Probably as early as the time of David and Solomon, out of a matrix of myth, legend, and history, there had appeared the earliest written form of the story of the saving acts of God from Creation to the conquest of the Promised Land, an account which later in modified form became a part of scripture.
 
tttallison said:
Taken from ---------Life and Letters of J.A.F. Hort volume I page 78. Letter addressed to Mr. John Ellerton dated July 6, 1848.

"I am inclined to think that no such state as Eden ever existed, and that Adam's fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants," (J.A.F. Hort)


Members of the Editorial Committee of the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament comprise:

UBS1, 1966 ------ Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce Metzger, Allen Wikgren.
UBS2, 1968 ------ Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Bruce Metzger, Allen Wikgren.
UBS3, 1975 ------ Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, Bruce Metzger, Allen Wikgren.
UBS4, 1993 ------ Barbara Aland, Kurt Aland, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, Bruce Metzger.

Almost all the new English translation relied on the work of this Committee.
Bruce Metzger produced the THE NEW OXFORD ANNOTATED BIBLE/REVISED STANDARD VERSION, along with Herbert G. May. Bruce Metzger also produced the Condensed Readers Digest Bible.

Metzger specialized in textual criticism and Bible translation and chaired committees for the Revised Standard Version and New Revised Standard Version. He served on the board of the American Bible Society and United Bible Societies. He was elected to the American Philosophical Society in 1986. Metzger is among the most influential New Testament scholars of the 20th century.

In the Introduction To The Old Testament, in the New Oxford Annotated Bible we find this statement. "Probably as early as the time of David and Solomon, out of a matrix of myth, legend, and history, there had appeared the earliest written form of the story of the saving acts of God from Creation to the conquest of the Promised Land, an account which later in modified form became a part of scripture.
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Thanks for the information. It's just as well that we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. I use Bible Hub, which has around 30 versions. I'm not educated enough in Biblical studies to try and rip God's word to shreds. My view is that it's God's Word and He is well able to ensure that the scriptures are correct and factual.

There are people on the forum who disagree with my point of view. And others who deny (to me) obvious doctrines such as original sin. So my intention is to be led by the Spirit and to learn from people such as Watchman Nee and Derek Prince. I find those men to be biblically sound. There are others, of course.

I've had a bunch of different versions. My go to mostly is the Berean, produced by Bible Hub. Even that I disagree with at times. I also use the Amplified, sometimes the NIV and also the NASB. The rest I pretty much ignore.​
 
There are people that twist scripture to advance a particular doctrine. Here is an interesting short article about that;

“Shoehorn" Pastoring

A shoehorn is used to force a person’s foot into a shoe. Many pastors see this approach to questions as a way to get people to stop asking questions. For example, a person might ask a pastor if what is called “The Great Commission” was given to Israel or the church. He could respond by saying it was given to those who were going to be the church. This approach dismisses follow up questions such as has the church replaced Israel, is there a future role for Israel, and is this a requirement for every individual Christian today.

Another verse that can cause one to question is Matthew 21:22 “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. “ People who try to apply this and discover it is not true are often told that it was because they did not have enough faith or that God does answer prayer but sometimes he says “No”. These responses are often used to get the questioner to desist. A real answer is that Jesus was telling those faithful in Israel that in the earthly kingdom when they are supernaturally changed by God to have the law written in their hearts (Jer 31:31-33) that they could be trusted to have their requests granted.

Instead of saying, “I don’t know”, or “Let’s find out”, the common pastoral reflex is to speak authoritatively to quash the question. This can be done for convenience, to protect doctrine, or to maintain the image of one’s expertise.

1. Platitudes. Responses like. “We just have to love Jesus”, are sort of an “answer” that is selected to prevent further questioning rather than seek truth.

2. Esoterica. Making a reference to some obscure doctrine, church father, or theological proposition can create a fog of disinterest that can quench questioning.

3. Popular convention. In response to the Matthew 21:22 verse a shoehorning pastor might say, “Everyone knows that God answers prayer, but sometimes he says “no”.

4. Allegorizing. Jesus tells his disciples that if they had faith they could tell a mountain to move.
A pastor might explain this as a metaphor to refer to solving big problems.

5. Dismissing. A pastor may declare that there is no future role for the nation of Israel because all of the prophecies for the nation are fulfilled in Christ. This sweeping statement creates a lens through which much of the bible can be now disregarded.

6. Heresy. A pastor might respond to an unwelcome question with a hint that such questioning is a dangerous line of inquiry that threatens sacred doctrine.

A pastor is supposed to be a shepherd who is apt to teach. Sadly what is often “taught” is a package of denominational doctrine that is not to be questioned. Even when twisting scripture to fit a predetermined package is not needed, it can be done to avoid exposing ignorance or to appeal to an audience.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
 
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Gideon300 said:
Thanks for the information. It's just as well that we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. I use Bible Hub, which has around 30 versions. I'm not educated enough in Biblical studies to try and rip God's word to shreds. My view is that it's God's Word and He is well able to ensure that the scriptures are correct and factual.

There are people on the forum who disagree with my point of view. And others who deny (to me) obvious doctrines such as original sin. So my intention is to be led by the Spirit and to learn from people such as Watchman Nee and Derek Prince. I find those men to be biblically sound. There are others, of course.

I've had a bunch of different versions. My go to mostly is the Berean, produced by Bible Hub. Even that I disagree with at times. I also use the Amplified, sometimes the NIV and also the NASB. The rest I pretty much ignore.​
Click to expand...

I would never put faith in any man. The scriptures are trustworthy in spite of man trying to distort them. If you search the scriptures diligently God will honor your effort. The Holy Spirit will guide you.
 
Jesus is the Living Word.How much symbolism can you find in Jesus?There is sooo much.I'll name some off the top of my head.He's a rock,dove,mountain,ark,capstone,spirit,water,and blood,sword,armor,bread,a Holy City.That's probably not even half.
If the Living word is full of symbolism,what about the word itself?
Understanding a spiritual thing is food.A baby doesn't come out the womb ready to eat solid food.
Growth must happen first,just like real life.A baby drinks lukewarm milk.I.E a lukewarm Christian.A baby in Christ.
Infiltrated Churches love pumping out lukewarm Christians.My father belongs in a satanic Church.They gather in secret under the Church.Baby Christians will go there and get their milk with no discernment whatsoever, and the pastor who preaches to them hates their guts.
They're like little babies put to death.
 
tttallison said:
I would never put faith in any man. The scriptures are trustworthy in spite of man trying to distort them. If you search the scriptures diligently God will honor your effort. The Holy Spirit will guide you.
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The scriptures you claim to research so diligently say that Lord Jesus placed gifts in the church to bring believers to maturity. Derek Prince is one of them. Sure, by all means check what he has to to say. I don't agree 100% with every word he's ever said. But he has insight and knowledge that are a great help to many.

Of course, if you are so spiritually advanced that you don't need any help from anyone, you should be doing what Derek Prince did for around 60 years.
 
tttallison said:
In Daniel the seventieth week becomes 70 weeks plus two thousand plus or minus.

In Matthew 24 this generation becomes any generation.
Click to expand...
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Israel as a nation has 70 weeks, 490 years, to make an end of sins, and bring in everlasting righteousness, and anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

Which they will not see Jesus again until they do that.

Which they are blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles.

So the 70th week could of not been fulfilled because Israel is not in the truth.

The 70th week is the time God allows the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth so He can end sin on earth.

And brings Israel to the truth.

For the first 3.5 years salvation is available to the world.

When they follow the antichrist and take his mark salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles.

Then God will turn Israel to the truth fulfilling the 70th week.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So this could of not been talking about Jesus because the 70th week was not fulfilled back at that time.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

This is the first century.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The rest is the end time for the disciples asked about the end of the world which is when God punishes the world for their sins and iniquities against Him.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel did not understand what was told him but he was told to go his way for the book is sealed until the time of the end which no person could understand until that time.

Which they will understand at that time because many shall run to and fro, advanced travel, and knowledge shall be increased, advanced technology.

Which then the saints can see, hear, and know what is going on in the world, and how it is possible for them to come together for they can communicate, and travel to each other, which they have a system on a world wide scale that is in opposition to God.

How can the disciples hear of wars and rumours of wars, and nation rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places on earth without technology.

They would be like Daniel having a limited view only in their small area.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

How could the Gospel be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations in the first century.

And then speaks then shall the end come.

But at the time of the end Jesus shall deliver up the kingdom and put down the world which means they do not continue anymore.

But we see it did not happen so this is future not in the first century.
 
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tablet123 said:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Israel as a nation has 70 weeks, 490 years, to make an end of sins, and bring in everlasting righteousness, and anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

Which they will not see Jesus again until they do that.

Which they are blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles.

So the 70th week could of not been fulfilled because Israel is not in the truth.

The 70th week is the time God allows the world 7 years to have their way and go against the truth so He can end sin on earth.

And brings Israel to the truth.

For the first 3.5 years salvation is available to the world.

When they follow the antichrist and take his mark salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles.

Then God will turn Israel to the truth fulfilling the 70th week.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So this could of not been talking about Jesus because the 70th week was not fulfilled back at that time.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

This is the first century.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The rest is the end time for the disciples asked about the end of the world which is when God punishes the world for their sins and iniquities against Him.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel did not understand what was told him but he was told to go his way for the book is sealed until the time of the end which no person could understand until that time.

Which they will understand at that time because many shall run to and fro, advanced travel, and knowledge shall be increased, advanced technology.

Which then the saints can see, hear, and know what is going on in the world, and how it is possible for them to come together for they can communicate, and travel to each other, which they have a system on a world wide scale that is in opposition to God.

How can the disciples hear of wars and rumours of wars, and nation rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places on earth without technology.

They would be like Daniel having a limited view only in their small area.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

How could the Gospel be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations in the first century.

And then speaks then shall the end come.

But at the time of the end Jesus shall deliver up the kingdom and put down the world which means they do not continue anymore.

But we see it did not happen so this is future not in the first century.
Click to expand...

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. To finish the transgression.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Mat 5:17)

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

2. To make an end of sins.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.

Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

6. To anoint the most Holy.

Mar 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Why do you want to deny Christ what He has accomplised?
 
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