Sin daily?

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Delvianna said:
It's not perfect tense... because teleioi is an adjective, not a verb in the perfect tense.

And yes, teleios can carry the idea of completeness, but that does not mean “mature but still sinful.” The context determines what kind of completeness Jesus is talking about.

Jesus says, “You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” God’s perfection is not simply that He is spiritually mature. He is morally complete and without sin.

The surrounding verses are also about moral conduct: loving enemies instead of only loving those who love you, doing good beyond the standard of ordinary sinners, and reflecting the character of the Father.

So I don’t think the verse can honestly be reduced to, “Just grow as much as you can spiritually.” Jesus gives God Himself as the standard.

If “perfect” merely meant “reach your personal best while remaining imperfect,” then Jesus could have said that. Instead He said, “as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Unless you think God needs to get more spiritually mature, which doesn't make sense.
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Its true, the standard is true sinless perfection referring to Jesus.. but what is the context around believers in this passage of being perfect?
Delvianna said:
It's not perfect tense... because teleioi is an adjective, not a verb in the perfect tense.

And yes, teleios can carry the idea of completeness, but that does not mean “mature but still sinful.” The context determines what kind of completeness Jesus is talking about.

Jesus says, “You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” God’s perfection is not simply that He is spiritually mature. He is morally complete and without sin.

The surrounding verses are also about moral conduct: loving enemies instead of only loving those who love you, doing good beyond the standard of ordinary sinners, and reflecting the character of the Father.

So I don’t think the verse can honestly be reduced to, “Just grow as much as you can spiritually.” Jesus gives God Himself as the standard.

If “perfect” merely meant “reach your personal best while remaining imperfect,” then Jesus could have said that. Instead He said, “as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Unless you think God needs to get more spiritually mature, which doesn't make sense.
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Matthew 5:45-48 KJV
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is about loving fully unconditionally , not just to immediate brethren.. not about sinlessness.

It is true the perfect tense is a verb. So that tense doesn't quite fit, but as you say telios refers to maturity and completeness.

The perfection in reference to the Father here is in his perfect moral justice. So believers are being admonished to be completely, wholly just in deals with others.

True sinlessness is actually being God. No one can do that. The only time that happens is in heaven.
 
Watchman22 said:
I'd really like to know where you were taught the understanding you're presenting.
Many saints are self taught these days, is this coming from your own research?
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As I replied to your prior post, it was revealed to me by God while I was reading Romans without the man-made divisions of chapter and verse.
I saw that Rom 8:2 answered Paul's Rom 7:23 law of sin in his members plaint !
Then I realized that Rom 6:6 answered Paul's Rom 7:24 deliverence from this body of death plaint too !
It turns out that Rom 7 is a sort of hinge point for Paul; a before-and-after recollection.
Romans 6 is the end of the "flesh", Romans 7 is Paul's recollection of his own transitional moment, and Romans 8 is the walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".
 
Watchman22 said:
Freed, this is how Rom.7:14-21 is translated.

Paul is describing a state of being where there are 3 entities. The Holy spirit, Satan, and us.
The Greek uses military terms in describing this state Paul is in.

We have the Holy spirit and satan in "trench warfare" over our souls.

We are a third party, merely an onlooker, watching this trecnch warfare, whos only part to play is which one we choose to give power to.

This is the foundational understanding of a sanctified life.

I think this is one of the most beautiful passages Paul ever taught.
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I see Paul's recollection of his preconversion complaints having been answered in Rom 6:6 and Rom 8:2.
 
Watchman22 said:
Self taught!
Need a gifted teacher to be perfected. NT 101.
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God/Holy Spirit taugh me that I can defend Paul against those who imply, either directly or indirectly, that Paul was still in the "flesh" and a sinner.
He was neither.
 
Freed18 said:
God/Holy Spirit taugh me that I can defend Paul against those who imply, either directly or indirectly, that Paul was still in the "flesh" and a sinner.
He was neither.
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We are either gifted teachers perfecting saints, or saints being perfected by a gifted teacher.

No self perfecting aloud.
And the possibility your a gifted teacher isn't getting off to a good start.
 
OMC said:
Wattie is right that teleios often means complete, whole, brought to the goal, but the rebuttal is right that Jesus is not talking about “mature but still sinful,”
Because the context determines the kind of completeness He demands.
In Matt 5:48, teleioi is an adjective, not a perfect‑tense verb, and Jesus grounds the meaning in the Father’s moral character — not in human developmental maturity.
The surrounding verses are about enemy‑love, radical mercy, and surpassing the righteousness of ordinary sinners, so the “perfection” Jesus commands is moral completeness in love, not metaphysical sinlessness and not merely “grow as much as you can.”
Teleios in Paul can mean mature (1 Cor 14:20), but in Jesus’ teaching it means reflecting the Father’s moral wholeness, especially in love (Matt 5:43–48; cf. love fulfills the law).
So the resolution is simple: teleios = moral completeness expressed as enemy‑love, the very thing the Father displays and the Spirit produces in the believer — not “perfect tense,” not “sinless angelic perfection,” and not “just try your best.”
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I like the fact that teleios also means "perfect" !
Perfect as God is perfect...as per Matt 5:48.
 
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Freed18 said:
God/Holy Spirit taugh me that I can defend Paul against those who imply, either directly or indirectly, that Paul was still in the "flesh" and a sinner.
He was neither.
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Why did he call himself the chiefest of sinners?
 
Watchman22 said:
We are either gifted teachers perfecting saints, or saints being perfected by a gifted teacher.

No self perfecting aloud.
And the possibility your a gifted teacher isn't getting off to a good start.
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My 'gifted teacher' was the Holy Spirit.
I feel that His teachings are unimpeachable.
 
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Freed18 said:
He didn't; he said he was the worst of those saved.
1 Tim 1:15..."This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
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Right. He saw himself as the foremost of sinners.
 
Freed18 said:
God/Holy Spirit taugh me that I can defend Paul against those who imply, either directly or indirectly, that Paul was still in the "flesh" and a sinner.
He was neither.
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The upside is there's alot of self perfecting going on here. So your in good company.
 
Freed18 said:
Yes, but prior to his conversion/being saved.
He didn't remain the worst of the worst, after crucifying the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
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Sure, but he still identified as a sinner.

When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, why do you suppose He taught them to ask forgiveness for their sins?
 
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Cameron143 said:
Sure, but he still identified as a sinner.
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He was a sinner, before his conversion.
Cameron143 said:
When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, why do you suppose He taught them to ask forgiveness for their sins?
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Because they were still all men who walked in and after the "flesh" instead of in and after the Spirit.
They were all still OT men !
That changed on the day of Christ's resurrection from the dead.
 
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Freed18 said:
He was a sinner, before his conversion.

Because they were still all men who walked in and after the "flesh" instead of in and after the Spirit.
They were all still OT men !
That changed on the day of Christ's resurrection from the dead.
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OT believers only walked according to the flesh?
 
Freed18 said:
For the most part, apart from the few who God blessed with His Spirit for a while.
And there are a few who seem to have been walking in the Spirit all their lives...like Enoch, Elijah, Samuel, and John the baptist.
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So, if OT believers only walked according to the flesh, everything they did was sinful?

Could OT believers exercise faith?
 
Cameron143 said:
So, if OT believers only walked according to the flesh, everything they did was sinful?
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Not necessarily.
But walking in and after the "flesh" kept them away from God.
Cameron143 said:
Could OT believers exercise faith?
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OT men, in general, could exercise faith.
Abraham and Noah, for example.
Also, Simeon and Anna, at the temple when the newborn Jesus was presented by His parents. (Luke 2:25-38)
However, until rebirth was made possible, they were all sons and daughters of Adam and Eve...not of God.
 
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