End of Days

OMC · Sep 11, 2026

Psalm1 said:
In the virgins parable the groom does not advance all the way to the brides house.
In rev 14;14 Jesus gathers from the sky.

In 1 thess 4 Jesus stops in the sky and we meet him there.
In rev 19, now we finally see a coming to earth.

3 separate vivid events.

I posted this in another thread, Thought it applied here as well,
Imagine we are living at the end of the tribulation, Scripture’s sequence is stark and linear: the world is convulsing, the saints are hunted, and the man of sin operates without restraint, but the moment Christ appears everything changes at once — His revelation is not gradual but catastrophic, the dead in Christ rise in glorified bodies, the living believers are transformed, and both are gathered to Him in the air because the ground is about to become the site of judgment; Paul says the wicked are destroyed by “the brightness of His coming” (2 Thess 2:8), which is why the meeting happens above the earth, not on it. The old order collapses in a single hour, the corruption of the nations ends, and after the resurrection of the righteous comes the resurrection of the wicked (John 5:28–29), followed by the final judgment and the separation of the two groups. What follows is the new creation, not a return to a damaged planet, not a millennial repopulation of mortal survivors, and certainly not a literal Borg cube‑city confined to ethnic Israel; the New Jerusalem is temple imagery for God’s presence filling the renewed cosmos. Everything you say is in there, Everything in scripture is in there.

Revelation1v8 · Sep 11, 2026

OMC said:
John is giving a heaven‑side view of the church age: Christ reigns, His martyrs reign with Him, Satan’s power is limited, and at the end of the age Satan is released for a final rebellion before Christ returns, raises the dead, judges the world, and brings the new creation.
the top one is what is happening
Revelation 20 places the “1,000 years” before the final judgment, not after the Second Coming. So it must be during the Present age, and the final period of deception and rebellion, and the tribulation cut short, time periods? No here i cut it off so you need to see my last post stating that.

Really? You want to call the 1,000 year reign of PEACE with Christ as the world we're living in today? Only because Satan hasn't been given his full power yet? The Bible says that Satan will be thrown into the Abyss during that 1,000 years, so he's not able to influence people at all. How do you make that fit? Christ has already been reigning for 2,000 years, but it certainly hasn't been in peace.

OMC · Sep 11, 2026

Revelation1v8 said:
Really? You want to call the 1,000 year reign of PEACE with Christ as the world we're living in today? Only because Satan hasn't been given his full power yet? The Bible says that Satan will be thrown into the Abyss during that 1,000 years, so he's not able to influence people at all. How do you make that fit? Christ has already been reigning for 2,000 years, but it certainly hasn't been in peace.

The 1,000 years is not a future earthly era of global peace; Scripture never calls it “peace,” never places resurrected saints on earth during it, and never describes a world without suffering. John explicitly says he sees souls, not bodies, reigning with Christ (Rev 20:4), which means the scene is in heaven, not on earth. Satan’s “binding” is not the removal of all evil influence but the restriction of his ability to deceive the nations the way he once did (Rev 20:3); that’s exactly how Paul describes the gospel age, where Christ’s reign breaks Satan’s former monopoly over the nations (Acts 26:18; Col 1:13). Christ has indeed been reigning for 2,000 years (1 Cor 15:25), and that reign is contested, opposed, and marked by tribulation — just as the New Testament says it will be (John 16:33; Rev 1:9). The “millennium” is the heaven‑side view of the present age: the faithful dead alive with Christ, Satan restrained from stopping the global spread of the gospel, and the church suffering on earth until the final outbreak when Satan is released. Only after that release does Christ return, destroy the wicked, raise the dead, and judge all.

Revelation1v8 · Sep 11, 2026

OMC said:
The 1,000 years is not a future earthly era of global peace; Scripture never calls it “peace,” never places resurrected saints on earth during it, and never describes a world without suffering. John explicitly says he sees souls, not bodies, reigning with Christ (Rev 20:4), which means the scene is in heaven, not on earth. Satan’s “binding” is not the removal of all evil influence but the restriction of his ability to deceive the nations the way he once did (Rev 20:3); that’s exactly how Paul describes the gospel age, where Christ’s reign breaks Satan’s former monopoly over the nations (Acts 26:18; Col 1:13). Christ has indeed been reigning for 2,000 years (1 Cor 15:25), and that reign is contested, opposed, and marked by tribulation — just as the New Testament says it will be (John 16:33; Rev 1:9). The “millennium” is the heaven‑side view of the present age: the faithful dead alive with Christ, Satan restrained from stopping the global spread of the gospel, and the church suffering on earth until the final outbreak when Satan is released. Only after that release does Christ return, destroy the wicked, raise the dead, and judge all.

I think you need to read your own response over again here because it sounds like you're saying that Satan is given limited ability to deceive people in HEAVEN unlike while were on the earth. The Bible makes it clear that the 1,000 years of peace will be a time ON EARTH when there will be no more war or anyone training for war and people will still be planting their own vineyards and laboring and living off of the fruit of their own labor. So, to say that this happens in heaven, just can't be right.

OMC · Sep 11, 2026

Revelation1v8 said:
I think you need to read your own response over again here because it sounds like you're saying that Satan is given limited ability to deceive people in HEAVEN unlike while were on the earth. The Bible makes it clear that the 1,000 years of peace will be a time ON EARTH when there will be no more war or anyone training for war and people will still be planting their own vineyards and laboring and living off of the fruit of their own labor. So, to say that this happens in heaven, just can't be right.

You’re right to flag clarity—that’s fair—so let me tighten what I’m actually saying.

Revelation 20 shows two locations at once:

Souls in heaven reigning with Christ (Rev 20:4).
Satan bound so he cannot deceive “the nations” (Rev 20:3)—that’s an effect on earth, not heaven.

So the “limited ability” language is about Satan’s relation to the nations on earth, not about him deceiving people in heaven.
Heaven is where the souls are; earth is where the nations are.
John’s vantage point is heaven, but the binding’s impact is earthly.

On the “1,000 years of peace”: the text of Revelation 20 never says “peace,” never mentions vineyards, never describes an end of war. Those images come from Isaiah 2, 11, Micah 4, etc.—prophetic pictures of the final, righteous order under Messiah.

The question is when those prophecies land:
before the final judgment, or
after Christ returns, destroys His enemies, raises the dead, and renews creation.

Revelation’s own sequence is:
present age with tribulation,
Satan bound from deceiving the nations as before,
souls reigning with Christ,
Satan released,
final rebellion,
then Christ’s return,
judgment, and the new creation.
The “millennium” in Revelation 20 is that intermediate, gospel age seen from heaven’s side,
not a future earthly utopia where no one suffers and no one sins.

Revelation1v8 · Sep 11, 2026

OMC said:
You’re right to flag clarity—that’s fair—so let me tighten what I’m actually saying.

Revelation 20 shows two locations at once:

Souls in heaven reigning with Christ (Rev 20:4).
Satan bound so he cannot deceive “the nations” (Rev 20:3)—that’s an effect on earth, not heaven.

So the “limited ability” language is about Satan’s relation to the nations on earth, not about him deceiving people in heaven.
Heaven is where the souls are; earth is where the nations are.
John’s vantage point is heaven, but the binding’s impact is earthly.

On the “1,000 years of peace”: the text of Revelation 20 never says “peace,” never mentions vineyards, never describes an end of war. Those images come from Isaiah 2, 11, Micah 4, etc.—prophetic pictures of the final, righteous order under Messiah.

The question is when those prophecies land:
before the final judgment, or
after Christ returns, destroys His enemies, raises the dead, and renews creation.

Revelation’s own sequence is:
present age with tribulation,
Satan bound from deceiving the nations as before,
souls reigning with Christ,
Satan released,
final rebellion,
then Christ’s return,
judgment, and the new creation.
The “millennium” in Revelation 20 is that intermediate, gospel age seen from heaven’s side,
not a future earthly utopia where no one suffers and no one sins.

Revelation’s own sequence is:
present age with tribulation,
Satan bound from deceiving the nations as before,
souls reigning with Christ,
Satan released,
final rebellion,
then Christ’s return,
judgment, and the new creation.
The “millennium” in Revelation 20 is that intermediate, gospel age seen from heaven’s side,
not a future earthly utopia where no one suffers and no one sins.

?????????? What??????

Now you're playing Psalms 1's game of limited words to give a limited answer with no understanding. LOL!

You're going to have to do better than that. Besides, you still have to figure out how to fit what Isaiah says about it into the equation, so you're not going to get all of the answers in the book of Revelation only.

What is the "intermediate, gospel age seen from heaven"? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Revelation1v8 · Sep 12, 2026

OMC said:
You’re right to flag clarity—that’s fair—so let me tighten what I’m actually saying.

Revelation 20 shows two locations at once:

Souls in heaven reigning with Christ (Rev 20:4).
Satan bound so he cannot deceive “the nations” (Rev 20:3)—that’s an effect on earth, not heaven.

So the “limited ability” language is about Satan’s relation to the nations on earth, not about him deceiving people in heaven.
Heaven is where the souls are; earth is where the nations are.
John’s vantage point is heaven, but the binding’s impact is earthly.

On the “1,000 years of peace”: the text of Revelation 20 never says “peace,” never mentions vineyards, never describes an end of war. Those images come from Isaiah 2, 11, Micah 4, etc.—prophetic pictures of the final, righteous order under Messiah.

The question is when those prophecies land:
before the final judgment, or
after Christ returns, destroys His enemies, raises the dead, and renews creation.

Revelation’s own sequence is:
present age with tribulation,
Satan bound from deceiving the nations as before,
souls reigning with Christ,
Satan released,
final rebellion,
then Christ’s return,
judgment, and the new creation.
The “millennium” in Revelation 20 is that intermediate, gospel age seen from heaven’s side,
not a future earthly utopia where no one suffers and no one sins.

Good morning, OMC! Looking forward to picking up where we left off, even if we can't come to any definite conclusions!

I've been thinking a lot about the differences between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

Revelation 19 tells us that only the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire and it specifically uses the word "both" of them to describe them as the only ones. It doesn't include mention of all the people that they deceived into receiving the mark of the Beast. Plus, there no mention of Satan, Hell, or Death being thrown into the Lake of Fire until we reach Revelation 20, where it talks about them all being thrown into the Lake of Fire AFTER the 1,000 years of rule of Christ on earth. Another verse that stuck out to me was Revelation 19:15. Once again, there's mention of Jesus ruling over His people with "a rod of iron", which tells me it will be on earth and not heaven. No rod will be necessary in heaven.

Here are the verses speaking about Jesus ruling over the nations with a "rod of iron":

Psalm 2:9 — "You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." (The OT source; a messianic psalm spoken by the Father about the Son.)
Revelation 2:27 — "He shall rule them with a rod of iron; they shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels — as I also have received from My Father." (Jesus speaking to the church at Thyatira, quoting Psalm 2.)
Revelation 12:5 — "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron." (The woman's child, i.e., Christ or his people, again quoting Psalm 2.)
Revelation 19:15 — "From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." (The Rider on the white horse at Armageddon.)

So, I did some searching to see if Revelation 19 really included the death of all flesh living on earth. Here is the explanation along with verses that I received about whether or not anyone would survive after the Second Coming of Jesus.

Survivors explicitly named after the battle:

Zechariah 14:2 — "half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city"
Zechariah 14:16 — "everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King"
Zechariah 13:8–9 — "two-thirds of the land will be struck… but one-third will be left"
Isaiah 13:12 — "I will shake the earth, and its inhabitants will be few" (not zero)
Isaiah 24:6 — "a few survivors are left"

A living, reproducing population during the millennium:

Isaiah 65:20 — "the youth will die at the age of one hundred, and the one who does not reach a hundred will be considered accursed" (implies birth, aging, and death)
Isaiah 65:22–23 — "they will not build houses and have someone else live in them… for the days of my people will be like the days of a tree"
Isaiah 11:6–9 — wolf and lamb dwelling together (renewed biosphere with people living in it)
Isaiah 2:2–4 / Micah 4:1–3 — "nation shall not lift up sword against nation" (nations still exist, still distinct)
Micah 4:6–7 — "I will make the lame my remnant, those driven away a strong nation"
Jeremiah 30:19 — "I will add to their numbers, and they will not be decreased; I will bring them honor"
Psalm 72:8 — "from the rising of the sun to its going down they will come before you and bring you gifts"

Judgment targets the wicked specifically, not all humanity:

Matthew 25:31–46 — sheep and goats separated; the sheep are told to "inherit the kingdom prepared for you" (they are alive, entering)
2 Thessalonians 1:7–9 — judgment falls on "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel" (a defined subset)
Revelation 20:12–13 — "the dead were judged according to what they had done" (judgment of the dead, not the living)

Population growth during the millennium:

Revelation 20:8 — Gog and Magog "as numerous as the sand of the sea" (a population of that size at the end of 1,000 years implies people were alive and reproducing throughout)

The kingdom is explicitly populated by a living people:

Revelation 5:10 — "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth"
Revelation 20:4–6 — "they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years"
Daniel 7:27 — "the kingdom and dominion… shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High"
Amos 9:11–12 — "I will raise up the fallen booth of David… that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by My name"

I look forward to any additional thoughts you have on the matter.

OMC · Sep 12, 2026

Revelation1v8 said:
Good morning, OMC! Looking forward to picking up where we left off, even if we can't come to any definite conclusions!

I've been thinking a lot about the differences between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

Revelation 19 tells us that only the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire and it specifically uses the word "both" of them to describe them as the only ones. It doesn't include mention of all the people that they deceived into receiving the mark of the Beast. Plus, there no mention of Satan, Hell, or Death being thrown into the Lake of Fire until we reach Revelation 20, where it talks about them all being thrown into the Lake of Fire AFTER the 1,000 years of rule of Christ on earth. Another verse that stuck out to me was Revelation 19:15. Once again, there's mention of Jesus ruling over His people with "a rod of iron", which tells me it will be on earth and not heaven. No rod will be necessary in heaven.

Good morning my friend, always a pleasure

Everything you’ve gathered is pointing in the same direction:
Revelation 19 is the destruction of the Beast’s armies, not the annihilation of all humanity, and
Revelation 20 is the judgment of Satan, Death, and the wicked dead after the millennium, not at the Second Coming.
The “both” in Rev 19:20 is decisive — only the Beast and False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at Christ’s appearing, while Satan is bound, not destroyed, and the rest of humanity is not said to be killed.
The rod‑of‑iron passages confirm an earthly reign over surviving nations, not a heavenly rule over glorified saints.
And the survivor texts you listed — Zech 14, Isa 24, Mic 4, Matt 25 — all explicitly show living people, nations, families, and reproduction after the Lord returns.
Revelation 20:8 seals it: Gog and Magog are “as the sand of the sea,” which is impossible unless millions were alive and multiplying for a thousand years.
The amillennial reading collapses because it cannot absorb the plain fact that Christ returns, judges the wicked, spares a remnant, and reigns over nations on earth.
Yes This sounds right as far as I can tell.

Revelation1v8 · Sep 12, 2026

Revelation1v8 said:
Good morning, OMC! Looking forward to picking up where we left off, even if we can't come to any definite conclusions!

I've been thinking a lot about the differences between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20.

Revelation 19 tells us that only the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire and it specifically uses the word "both" of them to describe them as the only ones. It doesn't include mention of all the people that they deceived into receiving the mark of the Beast. Plus, there no mention of Satan, Hell, or Death being thrown into the Lake of Fire until we reach Revelation 20, where it talks about them all being thrown into the Lake of Fire AFTER the 1,000 years of rule of Christ on earth. Another verse that stuck out to me was Revelation 19:15. Once again, there's mention of Jesus ruling over His people with "a rod of iron", which tells me it will be on earth and not heaven. No rod will be necessary in heaven.

Here are the verses speaking about Jesus ruling over the nations with a "rod of iron":

Psalm 2:9 — "You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." (The OT source; a messianic psalm spoken by the Father about the Son.)

Revelation 2:27 — "He shall rule them with a rod of iron; they shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels — as I also have received from My Father." (Jesus speaking to the church at Thyatira, quoting Psalm 2.)

Revelation 12:5 — "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron." (The woman's child, i.e., Christ or his people, again quoting Psalm 2.)

Revelation 19:15 — "From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." (The Rider on the white horse at Armageddon.)

So, I did some searching to see if Revelation 19 really included the death of all flesh living on earth. Here is the explanation along with verses that I received about whether or not anyone would survive after the Second Coming of Jesus.

Survivors explicitly named after the battle:

Zechariah 14:2 — "half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city"

Zechariah 14:16 — "everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King"

Zechariah 13:8–9 — "two-thirds of the land will be struck… but one-third will be left"

Isaiah 13:12 — "I will shake the earth, and its inhabitants will be few" (not zero)

Isaiah 24:6 — "a few survivors are left"

A living, reproducing population during the millennium:

Isaiah 65:20 — "the youth will die at the age of one hundred, and the one who does not reach a hundred will be considered accursed" (implies birth, aging, and death)

Isaiah 65:22–23 — "they will not build houses and have someone else live in them… for the days of my people will be like the days of a tree"

Isaiah 11:6–9 — wolf and lamb dwelling together (renewed biosphere with people living in it)

Isaiah 2:2–4 / Micah 4:1–3 — "nation shall not lift up sword against nation" (nations still exist, still distinct)

Micah 4:6–7 — "I will make the lame my remnant, those driven away a strong nation"

Jeremiah 30:19 — "I will add to their numbers, and they will not be decreased; I will bring them honor"

Psalm 72:8 — "from the rising of the sun to its going down they will come before you and bring you gifts"

Judgment targets the wicked specifically, not all humanity:

Matthew 25:31–46 — sheep and goats separated; the sheep are told to "inherit the kingdom prepared for you" (they are alive, entering)

2 Thessalonians 1:7–9 — judgment falls on "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel" (a defined subset)

Revelation 20:12–13 — "the dead were judged according to what they had done" (judgment of the dead, not the living)

Population growth during the millennium:

Revelation 20:8 — Gog and Magog "as numerous as the sand of the sea" (a population of that size at the end of 1,000 years implies people were alive and reproducing throughout)

The kingdom is explicitly populated by a living people:

Revelation 5:10 — "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth"

Revelation 20:4–6 — "they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years"

Daniel 7:27 — "the kingdom and dominion… shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High"

Amos 9:11–12 — "I will raise up the fallen booth of David… that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by My name"

I look forward to any additional thoughts you have on the matter.

Since a lot of those verses don't prove that the living who enter the Millennial Kingdom are those of flesh, I asked my Brave Search Assistant to make a clarification and here is what it gave me:

You're right to press this. Several of those verses are ambiguous about body type — they could describe glorified saints reigning on a renewed earth. Here's the honest sort:

Verses that clearly point to natural, mortal human flesh:

Isaiah 65:20 — "the one who dies at a hundred will be considered a child." Glorified bodies don't die. This is the single strongest verse.
Isaiah 65:22 — "they will not build a house and another dwell in it." Finite lifespan + inheritance = natural flesh.
Matthew 25:31–46 — the sheep and goats are distinguished by natural needs: "I was hungry and you gave me food, thirsty… naked… in prison." These are physical, bodily needs, not spiritual states.
Revelation 20:8 — Gog and Magog "as numerous as the sand of the sea." A population that size at the end of 1,000 years requires reproduction throughout, which requires natural flesh.
Jeremiah 30:19 — "I will add to their numbers, and they will not be decreased." Growth = reproduction = natural flesh.
Micah 4:7 — "I will make the lame my remnant." Physical limitation implies a natural body.
Zechariah 14:16 — "everyone who survives of all the nations." The verb "survives" (Hebrew nasa, to be left over) implies they were alive in flesh before and continue in flesh after.

The bottom line:

The case for natural flesh during the millennium rests almost entirely on Isaiah 65:20 (dying at 100), Isaiah 65:22 (finite lifespan), Matthew 25:31–46 (physical needs), and the population growth implied by Rev 20:8 and Jeremiah 30:19. Without those, the other verses are compatible with a reading where everyone reigning on earth has a glorified body and the "millennium" is simply the church age on a renewed earth.

So the argument is real but narrower than the full list suggests. It hinges on a small cluster of verses that describe mortality, reproduction, and physical limitation — and those are all either Isaiah 65 or the sheep/goats judgment.

OMC · Sep 12, 2026

Revelation1v8 said:
Since a lot of those verses don't prove that the living who enter the Millennial Kingdom are those of flesh, I asked my Brave Search Assistant to make a clarification and here is what it gave me:

You're right to press this. Several of those verses are ambiguous about body type — they could describe glorified saints reigning on a renewed earth. Here's the honest sort:

Verses that clearly point to natural, mortal human flesh:

Isaiah 65:20 — "the one who dies at a hundred will be considered a child." Glorified bodies don't die. This is the single strongest verse.

Isaiah 65:22 — "they will not build a house and another dwell in it." Finite lifespan + inheritance = natural flesh.

Matthew 25:31–46 — the sheep and goats are distinguished by natural needs: "I was hungry and you gave me food, thirsty… naked… in prison." These are physical, bodily needs, not spiritual states.

Revelation 20:8 — Gog and Magog "as numerous as the sand of the sea." A population that size at the end of 1,000 years requires reproduction throughout, which requires natural flesh.

Jeremiah 30:19 — "I will add to their numbers, and they will not be decreased." Growth = reproduction = natural flesh.

Micah 4:7 — "I will make the lame my remnant." Physical limitation implies a natural body.

Zechariah 14:16 — "everyone who survives of all the nations." The verb "survives" (Hebrew nasa, to be left over) implies they were alive in flesh before and continue in flesh after.

The bottom line:

The case for natural flesh during the millennium rests almost entirely on Isaiah 65:20 (dying at 100), Isaiah 65:22 (finite lifespan), Matthew 25:31–46 (physical needs), and the population growth implied by Rev 20:8 and Jeremiah 30:19. Without those, the other verses are compatible with a reading where everyone reigning on earth has a glorified body and the "millennium" is simply the church age on a renewed earth.

So the argument is real but narrower than the full list suggests. It hinges on a small cluster of verses that describe mortality, reproduction, and physical limitation — and those are all either Isaiah 65 or the sheep/goats judgment.

Your "Brave Assistant’s" clarification is basically correct:
The case for natural, mortal humans entering and living through the Millennium rests on a tight cluster of texts that explicitly describe death, aging, reproduction, physical limitation, and survival — realities impossible for glorified bodies.
Isaiah 65:20 is the anchor because it states outright that people die at 100, and glorified saints cannot die;
Isaiah 65:22–23 describes finite lifespans and generational inheritance;
Matthew 25’s sheep are judged by physical acts of mercy, not glorified conditions;
Revelation 20:8 requires a population “as the sand of the sea,” which demands centuries of reproduction;
Jeremiah 30:19 and Micah 4:7 describe increasing numbers and physical infirmity; and
Zechariah 14:16 explicitly names survivors of the nations who go up to worship.
Those passages cannot be spiritualized into glorified‑only existence without erasing their plain meaning.
So yes — the argument is narrower than the long list suggests, but the core cluster (Isaiah 65, Matthew 25, Rev 20, Jer 30, Zech 14) decisively proves flesh‑and‑blood survivors entering the Millennium.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 12, 2026

Revelation1v8 said:
Personally, I believe 2 Peter 3 is showing us another instance of "Prophetic Telescoping" or a dual and different fulfillment of things to come (as we discussed in another thread). I think a better argument you could have used to support your view would have been to point us back to 2 Peter, chapter 2, verses 5 & 6.

However, that still doesn't change the descriptions being used for the New Jerusalem/Heaven in Revelation 21 & 22. It will be totally different from earth as we know it when the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ is over. Which brings us back to our last debate regarding the 1,000 years and Jesus' Millennial Kingdom period. Do you still believe that it's being carried out in the "heavenly" realms even though people will still be repopulating and dying at extremely old ages and judged immediately for their sin? Or do you believe that it will be carried out on the "renewed" earth before all are judged at the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20, after the 1,000 years are over?

I found something else interesting about whether everything is just "renewed" or whether there will actually be a totally new creation in Isaiah 65:17 below...

Revelation 20:11 is the immediate context before the New Jerusalem appears. John sees the great white throne judgment and notes: "I saw no place for heaven and earth, or for sea or springs, for they had passed away." The "no place" language is strikingly total — it's not that the old order is being renovated, but that it has simply ceased to occupy space. This is the verse most often paired with 2 Peter 3:10 as the strongest case for literal, complete annihilation.

Matthew 24:35 / Mark 13:31 — Jesus says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." The parallel with Psalm 102:26 (see below) suggests the same kind of total "passing away."

Psalm 102:25–27, quoted in Hebrews 1:10–12 — "They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment… you will change them like a robe, and they will pass away." The "wear out like a garment" imagery implies the old creation is discarded entirely, not patched up.

Isaiah 65:17 — "For I am about to create new heavens and a new earth; the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind." The Hebrew verb bara (create) is the same word used in Genesis 1:1, which some argue implies creation ex nihilo — a wholly new act, not a renovation.

While I'm willing to accept a renewing of the current earth for the purpose of God/Jesus' Millennial Kingdom reign on it, I still believe there will be another fulfillment where the earth as we know it will be completely dissolved to make way for the New Jerusalem/Heaven, even if it sits in the same place where the earth once existed.

It's always good talking to you! I appreciate these discussions that make us dig deeper and harder for answers even when we won't always agree!

Peter is talking about Jesus return and the timing of it in 2 Peter 3 he begins here

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He tells the same story Jesus and oauo do about his return at the end of this world ( whether it’s totally replaced or “ refurbished )

OMC said:
Matthew 24:21–22 really does say what you’re pointing out: if those days weren’t shortened, no one would survive—but God does shorten them “for the sake of the elect.” That means there will still be people alive when Jesus returns.

Where we differ is what happens next.

In the same chapter, right after that, Jesus describes His coming, the angels gathering His people, and the end of the present age—not a long, peaceful era that continues with normal birth and death.
When you go to 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says that when Christ comes, the resurrection happens, all rule and authority are put down, and death itself is destroyed.
That doesn’t leave room for a thousand more years of people dying.
Revelation 20 does show a “thousand years” and then the Great White Throne, but it doesn’t say that the purpose of that period is for ethnic Israel to repopulate; that idea is coming from a system, not from the text itself.
The New Testament consistently ties the final coming of Jesus to resurrection, judgment, and the end of death, and that’s why I’m saying there’s no clear biblical category for a post‑return world where people keep living, dying, and repopulating for a thousand years.

“That means there will still be people alive when Jesus returns.”

amen

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: ( there’s that great noise from 2 peter) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

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