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The principle of "taken and left" are in both past and future judgments. Each time many are killed or exiled, and others are left as slaves. The Olivet Discourse looks at the 70 AD judgment in light of the 2nd Coming. That judgment (70 AD) would only be the start of an age-long jdgment...

That is patently false. Postrib is the traditional rendering of the Church, far, far before there was any such thing as Pretribulationism!

We return from heaven with Christ. The point is, we are not "traveling" up to heaven. We are snatched abruptly and instantly, and we are instantly with Christ, glorified, in order to return with him. It is an "instant" Rapture, and not a trip up into the sky. I have a problem with your...

Both the "taken" and the "left" are Jews who are being judged for rejecting Christ and remaining in Jerusalem to defy Rome. Some are taken to their death or into exile. Those "left" are left to manage agricultural fields for Roman soldiers. It is *all* judgment. There is no Rapture in this, in...

You may not wish to ask the question, but I do: Does Revelation depict the entire earth as perishing, or just 1/4 or 1/3? And I would ask, does Antichrist reign in just one part of the earth, in Europe, or is he omnipresent like God executing people everywhere on earth who reject him? My...

My point was that this was not to be characterized as a time consuming journey. That is how "U Turn" would be used, as if you went on a journey in one direction, and then suddenely had to do a "U Turn," turn around and come back. This isn't how it will take place, and that's not how I've...

As I said, a near timeless upward movement is hardly travel as in a "U Turn." Your characterization is wrong-headed, in my opinion.

The Antichrist does *not* kill all on earth who refuse the mark. He kills all who in his presence refuse to take the mark. The Antichrist is not omnipresent like God. He has a temporal kingdom on earth, and it will be located, I think, in Europe, in the midst of 10 nations. That's where those...

Your characterization of it as a "U Turn" is a joke. The Bible depicts Christ's coming as a coming to earth, a revelatioin to the entire world. The saints join him in his descent. Simple--no "U Turns" necessary. No travel time, unless you call "instant" something akin to "travel time?" We are...

Sorry, I think when Jesus' Return is depicted like lightning, it is taking on the various characteristics of lightning, which involves things like its suddenness, or speed. To separate out only certain characteristics would require that characteristic to be identified as exclusive in the...

GaryA said: "No - we do not know that Christ will "return like lightning"..." Matt 24.27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Luke 17.24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights...

Hey Gary, I thought you were going to give me an enormous Pretrib outline--we've all seen Prophetic Calendars in exquisite detail! ;) I've had my own in the past! Anyway, I checked out your outline. Here is a conversation I had with someone yesterday on a different forum. We certainly agree on...

I've forgotten how we even got into this conversation? ;) Great!!

You are suggesting that the event that takes place in the "twinkling of an eye" includes only "the change?" 1Cor 15.51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound...

I've seen all the tables, and read most all the books. If you have a specific argument I will give you my take. I already went into this with an open mind. In fact I went into it with a Pretrib mindset. Then I memorized all of 2 Thes 2. That changed m mind, and nothing else. Paul teaches Postrib...

One of the Christian scholars, Blaising, who defends Pretrib defines the Day of the Lord as inclusive of not just the day of Christ's Return but the many things about Antichrist and signs that precede it. He thinks a biblical pattern showing Christ's imminent arrival *before* some specified...

Yes, I can appreciate that. However, I've read most everything that can be said on the subject, including all of the passages. It's really in how you approach these passages, ie what presuppositions you have before you go in to consider these passages. I recently was asked to read a book, and I...

Hi sawdust, As I understand it, from a PreMill, Postrib perspective, the saints who have become Christians in the Millennial Age as resurrected after the final battle with God. That's when the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven and is forever planted upon the New Earth. Preflood saints and...

Sarcasm noted. For those more serious, I've explained elsewhere that this is not a U Turn. This is an instant glorification event that operates from heaven, where Christ is prepared to return and establish his Kingdom. We instantly join him as he begins his descent, which is virtually...

1st you explain--then, I'll check the website.