a universal church?

[wattie]

A mystical, invisible universal church of all saved is a very common belief..

but it is scriptural?

first thing- the word -

Ecclessia is the Greek behind that word-

which means

E.Vincent- 'Originally an assembly of citizens, regularly summoned'

A.H.Strong- 'Ekklesia signified merely an assembly, however gathered or summoned. The church was never so large it could not assemble'

F.Thayer- 'Take the entire range of Greek literature in all its dialects, secular and sacred, and there is not one passage in which ecclessia means an invisible and universal spiritual assembly.'

Dean Trench- 'Ekklesia, as we all know, was the lawful assembly in a free Greek city of all those possessed of the rights of citizenship, for the transaction of public affairs.'

So-- it is a local assembly or congregation that meets regularly..

and in the christian sense.. it is of a saved assembly or congregation who carry out the great commission and great commandment.. with Jesus as the Head.

To scripture:

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Who is the body of Christ? YOU? No.. this is about the church at Corinth. They are the body of Christ of that area at that time.

Ye = the people of the church of Corinth


Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

what is the church here?

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

the church here- church at Jerusalem.. LOCAL and VISIBLE

Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

what is the church here? You can't make havock of an invisible universal church!

It is-

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Again the church at Jerusalem!

No universal church anywhere in these scriptures! No universal and visible church.. no universal and invisible church!

Now I will leave the post at this length so people can read.. there are way more verses also..

but I challenge you to find the existence of a universal, all saved church anywhere in scripture.

 

[AnandaHya]

ummm so you don't get the whole mystery of Christ and His Bride?

you know the whole joined as ONE body, with Christ as the Head.....


Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

and this is not just referring to the Church in Ephesians any more than it is just referring to the Married couples in Ephesians...

 

[Red33]

A mystical, invisible universal church of all saved is a very common belief..

but it is scriptural?

first thing- the word -

Ecclessia is the Greek behind that word-

which means

E.Vincent- 'Originally an assembly of citizens, regularly summoned'

A.H.Strong- 'Ekklesia signified merely an assembly, however gathered or summoned. The church was never so large it could not assemble'

F.Thayer- 'Take the entire range of Greek literature in all its dialects, secular and sacred, and there is not one passage in which ecclessia means an invisible and universal spiritual assembly.'

Dean Trench- 'Ekklesia, as we all know, was the lawful assembly in a free Greek city of all those possessed of the rights of citizenship, for the transaction of public affairs.'

So-- it is a local assembly or congregation that meets regularly..

and in the christian sense.. it is of a saved assembly or congregation who carry out the great commission and great commandment.. with Jesus as the Head.

To scripture:

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Who is the body of Christ? YOU? No.. this is about the church at Corinth. They are the body of Christ of that area at that time.

Ye = the people of the church of Corinth


Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

what is the church here?

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

the church here- church at Jerusalem.. LOCAL and VISIBLE

Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

what is the church here? You can't make havock of an invisible universal church!

It is-

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Again the church at Jerusalem!

No universal church anywhere in these scriptures! No universal and visible church.. no universal and invisible church!

Now I will leave the post at this length so people can read.. there are way more verses also..

but I challenge you to find the existence of a universal, all saved church anywhere in scripture.

Good post Wattie. This needs to be heard over and over again. Those who are summoned to gather together as a local assembly understand that there are groups all over the world that have been called and are doing the same and they make up the church and body of Christ, who have the same Lord, the same faith, the same Spirit and have all been called with the same hope of their calling.

As concerning this woman that responded to your OP, she is dangerous and should be avoided, but you have your own discernment from God and are led of God.

 

[AnandaHya]

No universal church anywhere in these scriptures! No universal and visible church.. no universal and invisible church!

Now I will leave the post at this length so people can read.. there are way more verses also..

but I challenge you to find the existence of a universal, all saved church anywhere in scripture.

poor Red. can't even read the words right before his face.

He is deny there is a universal all saved church, and Red gives him an amen because of his bitterness towards me.... hmmmm...

never thought I was that scary or dangerous, especially quoting God's word with little or no comment most of the time...

 

[zone]

Good post Wattie. This needs to be heard over and over again. Those who are summoned to gather together as a local assembly understand that there are groups all over the world that have been called and are doing the same and they make up the church and body of Christ, who have the same Lord, the same faith, the same Spirit and have all been called with the same hope of their calling.

As concerning this woman that responded to your OP, she is dangerous and should be avoided, but you have your own discernment from God and are led of God.

RUBBISH......its your loss.
she's a godly woman, working very very hard and surpassed you my friend in discernment and TRUTH.

come against her, go through me first. she is my sister and i am proud of her and love her.

 

[zone]

poor Red. can't even read the words right before his face.

He is deny there is a universal all saved church, and Red gives him an amen because of his bitterness towards me.... hmmmm...

never thought I was that scary or dangerous, especially quoting God's word with little or no comment most of the time...

what i don't get is why he is bitter towards you!
you're polite!

me, i get....

Red...you better search your heart my friend.

 

[wattie]

Questions put forward byPastor Billy Mann (The Lamp- The church) page 12

How could a big universal, invisible church meet?

How could a saved person rightly join such a church?

How could an individual tell his grievances to such a church?

How could such a church ever observe the ordanances?

If there be such a church, why worry about joining a local body?

If history proves that such terms (universal, invisible) were invented for expediency, why believe tradition over scripture?


To Ephesians:

Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Is it a universal wife? Or is this a reference to the church as an institution.. singular standing for plural?

For example... 'the dog'-- means an individual dog or to all individual dogs generically. 'The bar' -- means individual bars counted in the singular as an institution.

Christ is head of His churches- in the same way He is 'espoused' to them.

'The bride' refers to the true churches of the Lord

A. Kirkland- "The author believes that the church is his bride, but he believes that this is a figure of speech not to be taken literally, but denoting the sacred relationship of every true Church to her Lord." (Kirkland, op. cit,, p.29)





24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

An individual church, could get someway to being without spot or wrinkle.. because it is for a group of people who meet regularly together during the week who could sort problems out more readily. It is also possible for the institution of multiple churches as 'the church' to be without spot etc.. because again.. the problems can be sorted out within each local assembly.

Possible for every redeemed person scattered everywhere? Not very.. and would make a mockery of alot of scripture about unity in 'the church'



28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Notice Christ and the church- has a small 'C' .. most times in the bible you see it with a small c.. it is meaning a local assembly, a local body.

But also.. this passage is predicated on the fact that 'the church' can be loved, cherished.. etc..

This can relatively easily be done with a local body.. or with the insitution of all local bodies.. but with every redeemed person scattered everywhere?

I guess Jesus could do that.. and does do that with each individual christian.. but in the NT when church is the subject.. it is for groups of believers assembled.. particular churches aimed at..that can be in unity.. not all saved everywhere.

So every believer.. that definitely is an entity tho.. but is is not the body of Christ.. every believer is part of the Family and Kingdom of God which is different from the institution of the body of Christ as Jesus' multiple, independent NT churches.

 

[CanadaNZ]

A mystical, invisible universal church of all saved is a very common belief..

but it is scriptural?

first thing- the word -

Ecclessia is the Greek behind that word-

which means

E.Vincent- 'Originally an assembly of citizens, regularly summoned'

A.H.Strong- 'Ekklesia signified merely an assembly, however gathered or summoned. The church was never so large it could not assemble'

F.Thayer- 'Take the entire range of Greek literature in all its dialects, secular and sacred, and there is not one passage in which ecclessia means an invisible and universal spiritual assembly.'

Dean Trench- 'Ekklesia, as we all know, was the lawful assembly in a free Greek city of all those possessed of the rights of citizenship, for the transaction of public affairs.'

So-- it is a local assembly or congregation that meets regularly..

and in the christian sense.. it is of a saved assembly or congregation who carry out the great commission and great commandment.. with Jesus as the Head.

To scripture:

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Who is the body of Christ? YOU? No.. this is about the church at Corinth. They are the body of Christ of that area at that time.

Ye = the people of the church of Corinth


Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

what is the church here?

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

the church here- church at Jerusalem.. LOCAL and VISIBLE

Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

what is the church here? You can't make havock of an invisible universal church!

It is-

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Again the church at Jerusalem!

No universal church anywhere in these scriptures! No universal and visible church.. no universal and invisible church!

Now I will leave the post at this length so people can read.. there are way more verses also..

but I challenge you to find the existence of a universal, all saved church anywhere in scripture.

People use the term universal church, let me clarify. One universal church because Christ has but one body, because there is only one way to the Father. If you would prefer you could say there is one family of God made up of all of those who truly believe, which is basically saying the same thing.

 

[CanadaNZ]

Good post Wattie. This needs to be heard over and over again. Those who are summoned to gather together as a local assembly understand that there are groups all over the world that have been called and are doing the same and they make up the church and body of Christ, who have the same Lord, the same faith, the same Spirit and have all been called with the same hope of their calling.

As concerning this woman that responded to your OP, she is dangerous and should be avoided, but you have your own discernment from God and are led of God.

Yea she is dangerous because she uses scripture in context and generally has well thought out and researched answers. . .unlike many on here who use verses and words out of context or hatemonger or baiting in order to avoid the truth staring them right in the face or even spout brainwashed garbage that has no basis in biblical truth. She is a good dangerous, we need more of her kind on here.

 

[tribesman]

There's this story about a woman who wanted to join the choir of the baptist church in London, where Spurgeon always preached. Spurgeon asked her, what church do you belong to sister? "I belong to the universal church!", she replied. Well, I suppose you sing in that choir then!, said Spurgeon.

 

[wattie]

This is the distinction here:

The body of Christ and the Family of God are different entities!

The body of Christ is either figurative for all local assemblies of believers.. which may not actually have every believer in it since some saved people have not joined a local body of believers. Or it is of a singular local body.. ie the body at Ephesus.. the body at Corinth. Body not being the literal body of Christ.. but body as in group.. assembly.

The Family of God contains all saved.. and those who aren't in a body of believers are still part of it... but this is not the body of Christ

The body of Christ would local assemblies within the Family of God. The Family of God being the wider entity.

 

[notIbutChrist]

This is the distinction here:

The body of Christ and the Family of God are different entities!

The body of Christ is either figurative for all local assemblies of believers.. which may not actually have every believer in it since some saved people have not joined a local body of believers. Or it is of a singular local body.. ie the body at Ephesus.. the body at Corinth. Body not being the literal body of Christ.. but body as in group.. assembly.

The Family of God contains all saved.. and those who aren't in a body of believers are still part of it... but this is not the body of Christ

The body of Christ would local assemblies within the Family of God. The Family of God being the wider entity.

Where in the world did you get this idea?

 

[notIbutChrist]

When Jesus said ''I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it'', which church do you think He was referring to? Your church, my church, some Baptist church in Indiana, The First Apostolic Church of Antioch? Or do you think He might of been talking of about the invisible universal Church of all true believers?

 

[AnandaHya]

This is the distinction here:

The body of Christ and the Family of God are different entities!

The body of Christ is either figurative for all local assemblies of believers.. which may not actually have every believer in it since some saved people have not joined a local body of believers. Or it is of a singular local body.. ie the body at Ephesus.. the body at Corinth. Body not being the literal body of Christ.. but body as in group.. assembly.

The Family of God contains all saved.. and those who aren't in a body of believers are still part of it... but this is not the body of Christ

The body of Christ would local assemblies within the Family of God. The Family of God being the wider entity.

yes but most people refer to the "family of God" as you call it as the universal spiritual Church/ Body/ Bride of Christ

in a body there are local cells contained within a membrane but there are molecules, gases and blood that pass between all the cells and though they are not a part of any one cell they are important integral parts of the body. neurochemicals and electrical impulses pass from one neuron or nerve cell to another to communicate, in the same way the invisible hidden members of God's church or family are still part of the body of Christ even if they are not part of an assembly or contained within a localized cell.

not sure if that made any sense to anyone but me.

are there different Spirits in all the localized churches or is there ONE Holy Spirit that all who are God's children baptized with into the Family and Body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

 

[Red33]

Yea she is dangerous because she uses scripture in context and generally has well thought out and researched answers. . .unlike many on here who use verses and words out of context or hatemonger or baiting in order to avoid the truth staring them right in the face or even spout brainwashed garbage that has no basis in biblical truth. She is a good dangerous, we need more of her kind on here.

Don't be too harsh there, I might know some things that you don't. I have complemented her in the past and will again. I know it got her dander up but that is in the past and she's a grown woman that can hold her own and all that goes for me as well.

 

[Red33]

AnandaHya,

That was a very good explanation about the function of the body. I understand Wattie to say that believers can live in ignorance or make excuses for not being a part of a local body and assembly of believers by referring to the fact that they are part of God's universal body and don't have any need for a local church or to be taught in a local assembly. It is very important that we gather together as an assembly and that gathering constitutes a local expression of those that have been redeemed and purchased with the blood of Christ. All believers, no matter their location, who have trusted Christ for salvation make up the universal body of Christ (God's family on earth) but only those that gather with others believers to hear the word of God and to worship God corporately are participating in the life of that body that is supplied by the head, Christ. We should do what we can through grace and the teaching of the scriptures to draw believers into a local expression of Christ's body. There is only one body but many local expressions that make up that one body. Every local expression has a supply of the Spirit that is given to each member with the distribution of various needed gifts, so that it can function as a body and reveal the purpose and will of God through Christ as their head.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When Jesus said ''I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it'', which church do you think He was referring to? Your church, my church, some Baptist church in Indiana, The First Apostolic Church of Antioch? Or do you think He might of been talking of about the invisible universal Church of all true believers?

I agree with everthing here but one aspect. The Church is NOT invisible. God calls the Church the Light of the world. Tells it to be separate from the world. Says he uses the Church to draw others to him. To expose his truth to darkness.

If one is in a dark room. And a candle light is in one far corner of the room, everyone will be drawn to that light. That candle is not invisible, it is visible.

That is the picture God wants to have for his body. A light which shines in darkness. God uses this light to draw people to him.

second, as your example shows. The gates of hell will not prevail. I do not know of any army who has ever stormed a gate which was invisible. When the church goes out. the enemy should know it has broken through its gates and are out to rescue people from the worlds grasp.

So in either example. there is no such thing as an "invisible" church.

However. to make it clear. A visible church does not mean the roman church is correct. it means it is through how people act and respond to troubles of the world that the church is visible. Not a building or organization. This is a false meaning of an intended visible church.

 

[notIbutChrist]

I agree with everthing here but one aspect. The Church is NOT invisible. God calls the Church the Light of the world. Tells it to be separate from the world. Says he uses the Church to draw others to him. To expose his truth to darkness.

If one is in a dark room. And a candle light is in one far corner of the room, everyone will be drawn to that light. That candle is not invisible, it is visible.

That is the picture God wants to have for his body. A light which shines in darkness. God uses this light to draw people to him.

second, as your example shows. The gates of hell will not prevail. I do not know of any army who has ever stormed a gate which was invisible. When the church goes out. the enemy should know it has broken through its gates and are out to rescue people from the worlds grasp.

So in either example. there is no such thing as an "invisible" church.

However. to make it clear. A visible church does not mean the roman church is correct. it means it is through how people act and respond to troubles of the world that the church is visible. Not a building or organization. This is a false meaning of an intended visible church.

Point taken

 

[wattie]

Where in the world did you get this idea?

Again

just look at the meaning of Ecclessia.. the Greek word behind the word 'church'

it always meant and means a local, visible assembly or congregation. In secular terms it was used for people gathering to conduct affairs.. in christian terms.. it is a body of saved, baptised believers gathered together.

All believers is not 'a body'.. is it is unassembled.. the parts are all over the place!

All believers are in teh Family of God.. which is not an assembly or congregation.. and is scattered everywhere.

Now.. one day.. when the New Jerusalem is done.. then we all will be in one church.. one congregation.. really one body.. but until then..

We have local bodies of believers.

The bible says the church is the body of Christ.. they are the same thing.. so if 'church' means ecclessia..

then it is the insitution of all local congregations counted as one institution owned by Jesus.. or is particularly referring to a local body believers .. for eg.. the body of believers at Ephesus.

The church is either local and visible or universal.. but it cannot be both! It is defined only one way biblically!

when you are saved.. you aren't part of a body of believers.. a body of Christ.. an assembly or congregation owned by Jesus. Not yet

You join a body of believers.. an assembly.. a congregation.. owned by Jesus... a body of Christ later.