Birthright? can anyone explain it?

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#21
so the birthright had to do with the land and the blessing had to do with the lineage that the Messiah would come from?

that doesn't make sense though because the next king did not come from Joseph's descendents but his younger brother Benjamin in the form of King Saul.

mmm... one minute I want to research something...
Saul was a Benjamanite and had nothing to do with the seed line. It had always been God's intention for the people to have a king because he had given instruction in the Law regarding their kings. But, because the people cried for a king, God gave them Saul (this is just my personal opinion so you can take it for what it is worth) but, had Israel waited for God to appoint a king in Israel according to his time, I am convinced that David - a descendant of Judah would have been the first king.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#22
Going to answer these one at a time...

Ephraim and Manesseh were Joseph's sons. Ephraim was the younger but Israel/Jacob blessed him with these words:

Genesis 48
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.”
so you say the ark was in Ephraim? can you give me the scriptures?
The promises passed to Ephraim because GOD through Jacob gave the birthright to Ephraim. Joshua, an Ephraimite, inherited the promises of GOD and inherited the land as promised. He distributed his inheritance to the other tribes, which did not receive the inheritance directly from GOD.

And all Israel saw that the king did not hearken to them: and the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we any inheritance in the son of Jessæ. Depart, O Israel, to thy tents: now feed thine own house, David. So Israel departed to his tents. ​ 1 Kings 12:16

Ephraim ruled (judged) Israel from Shiloh for centuries.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#23
Saul was a Benjamanite and had nothing to do with the seed line. It had always been God's intention for the people to have a king because he had given instruction in the Law regarding their kings. But, because the people cried for a king, God gave them Saul (this is just my personal opinion so you can take it for what it is worth) but, had Israel waited for God to appoint a king in Israel according to his time, I am convinced that David - a descendant of Judah would have been the first king.
The only reason I disagree with this is because GOD has taken pains throughout history to show us the pattern of first the natural, then the spiritual.

As an object lesson, what did Cain, Ishmael, Esau, and Reuben all have in common?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,143
612
113
70
Alabama
#24
The only reason I disagree with this is because GOD has taken pains throughout history to show us the pattern of first the natural, then the spiritual.

As an object lesson, what did Cain, Ishmael, Esau, and Reuben all have in common?
I do not understand what this has to do with anything I said.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#25
In a world were we believe "all men are created equal," what does it mean to have a birthright?

I guess its a type of inheritance, right?

What exactly did Esau sell Jacob in Genesis 25: 29-34?

its not the same as blessing Genesis 27:36.

and we have these other verses that mention "birthright"


  • 1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel—he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright;
  • 1 Chronicles 5:2 yet Judah prevailed over his brothers, and from him came a ruler, although the birthright was Joseph’s—
For the sake of providing for the widow, younger siblings, and family the birthright was set to go to the eldest son who received a majority of the inheritance. Esau sold his majority to his brother Jacob. Later, Jacob tricked Isaac into giving him the blessing that was to go to the eldest son (I believe because Isaac was nearing his death and such blessings are customary at that time).
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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#26
IF the birthright was Joseph's why did the ruler come from Judah?
There were two promises given, the Birthright (physical blessings) and the Sceptre (the King and salvation).

The Covenant promises were first made here...

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great;

National blessings (birthright)

and thou shalt be a blessing:

Spiritual blessing (Christ the Messiah)

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:

Again, birthright

and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Sceptre (Spiritual blessing)

Reaffirmation of the Birthright...

Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Gen 13:17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Now notice verse 5, this is speaking of all who fall under the Covenant...

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Sceptre promise.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

This everlasting Covenant is again the Sceptre promise, eternal life through Jesus Christ.

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Gen 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Notice that all this time the Covenant is a future promise if Abraham kept the Covenant and if He followed God, that is about to change...

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God told Abraham to do something he did not understand, offer his own son as a burnt offering. What was his response? Did he try to reason around this? Did he argue that that must not be what God really wanted?

Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

In Abraham's mind, Isaac was dead.

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

So, predestination? Nope, God did not know until this moment how deep Abraham's committment was. Now read on...

Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Physical blessings (the Birthright)

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

The Sceptre (Christ the Messiah).

Why?

because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Now there is no force in the universe that could prevent God from blessing Abraham.

Now to Gen 49...

Notice all are given something but Reuben, the firstborn, does not receive the Birthright or the Sceptre...

Gen 49:3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Gen 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

The Sceptre promise goes to Judah and the Birthright goes to Joseph and his sons, Ephraim (the younger) and Manasseh (the firstborn)...

Gen 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Gen 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)

Do a search on Liafail, the stone of schone or stone of destiny, you will find it interesting.

Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Now this is another reason it is important to understand the difference between Judah (the Jews) and Israel. There are actually thirteen tribes (Joseph was given a double portion for Ephraim and Manasseh and Levi was not given an inheritance in the land, he was given the Priesthood).
 
Last edited:
May 15, 2013
4,307
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#27
In a world were we believe "all men are created equal," what does it mean to have a birthright?

I guess its a type of inheritance, right?

What exactly did Esau sell Jacob in Genesis 25: 29-34?

its not the same as blessing Genesis 27:36.

and we have these other verses that mention "birthright"


  • 1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel—he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright;
  • 1 Chronicles 5:2 yet Judah prevailed over his brothers, and from him came a ruler, although the birthright was Joseph’s—
The first born is the one who's entitle for best of the inherentance which is promise to them. Esau had thoughtless of the inherentant, andso that's why God had Issaac to bless Jacob with the inherentance.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#28
so you say the ark was in Ephraim? can you give me the scriptures?
Just do a bible search for Shiloh. Shiloh was the capital city of Ephraim. The ark stayed there until the Philistines took it. When they ejected it from their country, GOD sent it to Judah.

i'm trying to figure out this time line:
tracing the birthright.
where does it begin?
It began with Abraham > Isaac > Jacob > Joseph (Ephraim) > Joshua (Ephraim)

Joshua inherited the land and part of GOD's promise to Abraham was fulfilled.

How does it get to Benjamin (via Saul) and then to Judah (via David)?
Or does it?
No it does not. The birthright never passed to Benjamin. It stayed with Ephraim even when Saul and David were kings.

what is this "birthright"?
is it like God's annointing?
Yes. The firstborn who received the right to inherit GOD's promises and blessings was always chosen by GOD and anointed with his spirit.