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R
Well if you want to talk with atheists on a scientific or logical level, then you have to come armed. You don't do yourself (or the Body) any favors by not understanding what you're posting about or talking about. Even a moderately smart atheist would chew this up and spit it out.
Iron sharpens iron, so I'm glad we can discuss this in a 'safe place.'
Iron sharpens iron, so I'm glad we can discuss this in a 'safe place.'
R
I think you have something of a point here.
There are some things that seem to echo across pretty much every belief system as being 'good' or 'bad.' Even non-believers understand a general right from wrong without any kind of advanced instruction.
Eve ate the apple, now we all know.
Homosexuality is something that isn't just considered bad, but rather 'disgusting' to a lot of cultures. People are repulsed by it. It's an 'abomination.' Disgust is a natural function, so in that way I definitely think someone can be born thinking it's disgusting.
However, I do think someone needs to learn how to marginalize those people. You have to learn how to be a racist, for example, even though some people are born finding certain other races 'disgusting.' You have to learn how to segregate. You have to learn how to fight for inequality. You have to be taught that some people don't deserve rights.
You also have to be taught how to overcome disgust if that reaction is harmful. If you've ever been around a toddler that tries to throw up when you feed them vegetables, then you totally get this. lol That knee jerk disgust mechanism isn't always right.
I'm not trying to make a case for the gays or anything, I've just been reading some interesting stuff on the disgust mechanism recently. It's kind of a new area of research, so keep your eyes peeled if you like this kind of thing. Humans are super interesting.
Sorry for the ramble...sleep deprivation.
There are some things that seem to echo across pretty much every belief system as being 'good' or 'bad.' Even non-believers understand a general right from wrong without any kind of advanced instruction.
Eve ate the apple, now we all know.
Homosexuality is something that isn't just considered bad, but rather 'disgusting' to a lot of cultures. People are repulsed by it. It's an 'abomination.' Disgust is a natural function, so in that way I definitely think someone can be born thinking it's disgusting.
However, I do think someone needs to learn how to marginalize those people. You have to learn how to be a racist, for example, even though some people are born finding certain other races 'disgusting.' You have to learn how to segregate. You have to learn how to fight for inequality. You have to be taught that some people don't deserve rights.
You also have to be taught how to overcome disgust if that reaction is harmful. If you've ever been around a toddler that tries to throw up when you feed them vegetables, then you totally get this. lol That knee jerk disgust mechanism isn't always right.
I'm not trying to make a case for the gays or anything, I've just been reading some interesting stuff on the disgust mechanism recently. It's kind of a new area of research, so keep your eyes peeled if you like this kind of thing. Humans are super interesting.
Sorry for the ramble...sleep deprivation.
I had to really move through a ton of links to finally find a source and when I found it I was very disappointed. The study had an extremely small sample size and didn't come to any significant findings. This is simply sensationalist media. I may be wrong on this because I can't seem to find the paper written by Brick Johnstone, if it indeed exists, anywhere. The study I found just talked about changes in brain patterns in people who claimed to have had religious experiences.
They claim all their allegiance to a process? Okay, sure. But not all findings made by the scientific process are correct. Most scientists know this. Scientific research is prone to errors and misinterpretations based on missing data. Sometimes incorrect models are supported by the available evidence (which can sometimes be incorrect data). The models may have some sense of rightness to them as someone can make predictions based on them that correspond with reality. Such was the case with the only study I could find linked.
Even if I grant your distorted views of what these studies are saying that doesn't mean just because someone can't help the way they are doesn't mean they are acting in a way that benefits society. There actions would still not be morally justified.
So far, only some cases of homosexuality have been shown to be correlated with fetal development of the mind, be it through genetics and/or different conditions of the mother's body.
We can definitely tolerate such behavior. However, that doesn't mean that anyone has to tolerate the behavior once it starts to infringe on other people. For example, even though you can tolerate someone who has a predisposition to violent behavior doesn't mean you allow them to commit violent acts. You just have to get them help and put them into an environment were their harmful acts can be restrained.
Okay.
They claim all their allegiance to a process? Okay, sure. But not all findings made by the scientific process are correct. Most scientists know this. Scientific research is prone to errors and misinterpretations based on missing data. Sometimes incorrect models are supported by the available evidence (which can sometimes be incorrect data). The models may have some sense of rightness to them as someone can make predictions based on them that correspond with reality. Such was the case with the only study I could find linked.
Even if I grant your distorted views of what these studies are saying that doesn't mean just because someone can't help the way they are doesn't mean they are acting in a way that benefits society. There actions would still not be morally justified.
So far, only some cases of homosexuality have been shown to be correlated with fetal development of the mind, be it through genetics and/or different conditions of the mother's body.
We can definitely tolerate such behavior. However, that doesn't mean that anyone has to tolerate the behavior once it starts to infringe on other people. For example, even though you can tolerate someone who has a predisposition to violent behavior doesn't mean you allow them to commit violent acts. You just have to get them help and put them into an environment were their harmful acts can be restrained.
Okay.
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V
Interestingly, the Bible does seem to say that we are all born with a moral code, meaning we know right from wrong. Romans 2 specifically verses 14 & 15.
"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them"
There are also other places in the Bible that talks about God writing the moral code on the hearts of His people.
"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them"
There are also other places in the Bible that talks about God writing the moral code on the hearts of His people.
J
I think people can steer "science" to justify pretty much anything they want and some folks will fall right into the hole nodding.
The bottom line for me is that whether I'm born with a bent to do/not do something, I still have a choice to make as to whether I'm going to do it or not. I was born with a bent to want to punch someone in the face when I'm really angry. That doesn't make it okay. As violakat mentioned, how many people do you know with a bent toward adultery? Does that make it okay?
The bottom line for me is that whether I'm born with a bent to do/not do something, I still have a choice to make as to whether I'm going to do it or not. I was born with a bent to want to punch someone in the face when I'm really angry. That doesn't make it okay. As violakat mentioned, how many people do you know with a bent toward adultery? Does that make it okay?
J
LUKE 1:
39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”
