Church built on the Rock

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,555
3,192
113
#41
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Notice this is the initial guestion.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealeditunto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

This was a revealing or (unvieling) from Heaven, unto Peter from the Father.
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From
G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I believe :
The Rock was not Peter, but the Revelation he received from heaven, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
The Truth which is a Rock that can not be move, or changed in any way.
That is the way I read those passages too. If Matthew 16:18 had meant to have Peter as the foundation of His church it wouldn't have changed the language from Peter and then to rock. It would have said thou art Peter and upon you I will build my church. By stating upon this I will build my church, it is directly relating to the revelation Peter received from God. Simon Barjonas name was changed to Peter precisely because he was given this revelation, that Jesus is Christ, son of the Living God.

Good Post!!
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#43
That is the way I read those passages too. If Matthew 16:18 had meant to have Peter as the foundation of His church it wouldn't have changed the language from Peter and then to rock. It would have said thou art Peter and upon you I will build my church. By stating upon this I will build my church, it is directly relating to the revelation Peter received from God. Simon Barjonas name was changed to Peter precisely because he was given this revelation, that Jesus is Christ, son of the Living God.

Good Post!!
o_O

Peter means Rock. Our Lord literally said in Aramaic, "You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church."

We do lose a bit of the play on words when it was translated to Greek, and later on to English, but there isn't really much room to doubt who Jesus was referring to when He said "and on this rock..."
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,555
3,192
113
#44
o_O

Peter means Rock. Our Lord literally said in Aramaic, "You are Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church."

We do lose a bit of the play on words when it was translated to Greek, and later on to English, but there isn't really much room to doubt who Jesus was referring to when He said "and on this rock..."
I agree, it is quite plainly written. If He had been referring to Simon Barjona He would have said "You are Simon Barjona and upon you I will build my Church." But He didn't. There is a play on words there for a reason.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#45
I agree, it is quite plainly written. If He had been referring to Simon Barjona He would have said "You are Simon Barjona and upon you I will build my Church." But He didn't. There is a play on words there for a reason.
There was no need to say "Simon Bar-Jona" since he had just renamed Simon Rock three words before.
 
Oct 12, 2011
1,123
3
0
#46
Simon- bar- jona......Son of the dove.

Peter, Petra, .....stone....

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

why does my copy and paste get so big when my typing isn't ?
I'm not yelling, so please don't think that I am, I can only controll it when
I go advanced.

sorry.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#47
I thought Peter meant "pebble".....that's somewhat smaller than a "rock"
I mean....
"that mountain is one huge rock...."
a bit different to...
"that mountain is one huge pebble...."

rock..pebble...two different things, no?
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#48
I thought Peter meant "pebble".....that's somewhat smaller than a "rock"
I mean....
"that mountain is one huge rock...."
a bit different to...
"that mountain is one huge pebble...."

rock..pebble...two different things, no?
That difference is only found in the older Attic Greek dialect, not the Koine Greek used at the time. The only difference between Petros and Petra is that one is the masculine form. By default "rock" in Koine Greek is feminine. Since Peter is a guy, the name was changed to the masculine variant. Koine Greek has a specific word for "pebble" in use at the time, "Lithos."

But the Scripture doesn't say, "You are Lithos, and on this Petra..." it says, "You are Petros, and on this petra..."
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#49
For those interested:


[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7kehrfDMI8[/video]
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#50
3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed(1 Peter 2:3-8).


The Bible calls Jesus a rock,and Jesus called Peter a stone.


It says that Jesus is a living stone,and all the saints are stones.


Jesus is the chief cornerstone,and all the saints are stones,not only Peter,which Peter was never referred to as a rock,but a stone,as all the saints are stones.


20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit(Ephesians 2:20-22).


Here it says that all the saints are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone.


The saints are built upon the foundation of the apostles,plural,and not only Peter,which can only mean,the saints are built upon the teachings of the apostles and prophets,while the apostles were taught of Jesus,which the Church is built upon,for He is the chief cornerstone.



Jesus taught the apostles,and the teaching goes on from there,adding to the building as people teach other people of the truth,the chief cornerstone being Jesus.


So the Church is built upon Jesus,who is the chief cornerstone,and the saints are built upon the apostles and prophets,not only Peter,and we are built upon Peter in the sense that he was given the keys to the kingdom,which means,he had the authority to preach the first message in Acts chapter 2.


The truth is the Bible says the saints are built upon the apostles,plural,and not only Peter,who is referred to as a stone,never a rock,but all the saints are referred to as stones,for they all build upon each other,by their teachings to other people that become added to the Church,which Jesus is the chief cornerstone,and Peter preached the first message in Acts chapter 2.


The Bible says that no other foundation can be laid but what has already been laid,and that is Jesus Christ.


So no other foundation can be laid,but Jesus Christ,who is the chief cornerstone,and head of the Church.
Jesus Christ is the only foundation that can be laid in the building of the Church,and no other.


But the Bible says that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.


Since no other foundation can be laid but Jesus Christ,then being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,means being built upon their teachings.


So being built upon Peter would mean being built upon his teachings,which he preached the initial message of the kingdom of heaven,which Jesus gave him the keys,or authority to do so.


Also it says that all the saints are lively stones that are built upon each other,as stones building a house.


So the Church would not be built upon Peter in the sense that he is the start of the Church,for the Bible says Jesus is the start of the Church,the chief cornerstone,the head of the Church,but we would be built upon the teachings of Peter,which Peter got his teachings from Jesus,and Jesus gave Peter authority to preach the first message to the public,where people accepted and became part of the Church.


If that is what Jesus meant,Peter,it would be Peter's teachings and initial message,but it says upon this rock,which Jesus called Peter a stone,as all saints are called stones,and Jesus is the only one ever called rock.


Which when Jesus called Peter a stone,as all saints are called stones,it would mean Peter would be the one to preach the first message to the public after Jesus taught them for 40 days,and then ascended in to heaven.


When I look at scriptures it seems like the rock has to be Christ,and we are built upon the foundation of all the apostles,not only Peter,so this authority that some think was bestowed on Peter,is not what some people think it is,for we are built upon all the apostles,and we are all stones,and not only Peter.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#51
3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed(1 Peter 2:3-8).


The Bible calls Jesus a rock,and Jesus called Peter a stone.


It says that Jesus is a living stone,and all the saints are stones.


Jesus is the chief cornerstone,and all the saints are stones,not only Peter,which Peter was never referred to as a rock,but a stone,as all the saints are stones.


20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit(Ephesians 2:20-22).


Here it says that all the saints are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone.


The saints are built upon the foundation of the apostles,plural,and not only Peter,which can only mean,the saints are built upon the teachings of the apostles and prophets,while the apostles were taught of Jesus,which the Church is built upon,for He is the chief cornerstone.



Jesus taught the apostles,and the teaching goes on from there,adding to the building as people teach other people of the truth,the chief cornerstone being Jesus.


So the Church is built upon Jesus,who is the chief cornerstone,and the saints are built upon the apostles and prophets,not only Peter,and we are built upon Peter in the sense that he was given the keys to the kingdom,which means,he had the authority to preach the first message in Acts chapter 2.


The truth is the Bible says the saints are built upon the apostles,plural,and not only Peter,who is referred to as a stone,never a rock,but all the saints are referred to as stones,for they all build upon each other,by their teachings to other people that become added to the Church,which Jesus is the chief cornerstone,and Peter preached the first message in Acts chapter 2.


The Bible says that no other foundation can be laid but what has already been laid,and that is Jesus Christ.


So no other foundation can be laid,but Jesus Christ,who is the chief cornerstone,and head of the Church.
Jesus Christ is the only foundation that can be laid in the building of the Church,and no other.


But the Bible says that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.


Since no other foundation can be laid but Jesus Christ,then being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,means being built upon their teachings.


So being built upon Peter would mean being built upon his teachings,which he preached the initial message of the kingdom of heaven,which Jesus gave him the keys,or authority to do so.


Also it says that all the saints are lively stones that are built upon each other,as stones building a house.


So the Church would not be built upon Peter in the sense that he is the start of the Church,for the Bible says Jesus is the start of the Church,the chief cornerstone,the head of the Church,but we would be built upon the teachings of Peter,which Peter got his teachings from Jesus,and Jesus gave Peter authority to preach the first message to the public,where people accepted and became part of the Church.


If that is what Jesus meant,Peter,it would be Peter's teachings and initial message,but it says upon this rock,which Jesus called Peter a stone,as all saints are called stones,and Jesus is the only one ever called rock.


Which when Jesus called Peter a stone,as all saints are called stones,it would mean Peter would be the one to preach the first message to the public after Jesus taught them for 40 days,and then ascended in to heaven.


When I look at scriptures it seems like the rock has to be Christ,and we are built upon the foundation of all the apostles,not only Peter,so this authority that some think was bestowed on Peter,is not what some people think it is,for we are built upon all the apostles,and we are all stones,and not only Peter.
Where are you guys getting that "Petros" simply means stone, it means the same thing as "Petra" (i.e. rock). If your going to insist that petros means stone then you need to be consistent and insist that petra means rock. Which would downgrade Peter's confession of faith to one stone among many that build the foundation.
 

Shilo

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2011
1,985
105
63
#52
Just a thought Before the thing comes up about Matthew 16:18 they are talking about the sinful doctrine of the Pharisees and about faith. Then after this is said Jesus starts teaching them again about what is written about him. It looks like the rock or foundation that is being talked about here is revelation and truth in the word. Jesus is the word, the truth and the life. Then to back this up go to Matthew 5-7. Jesus goes up on a mountain like God in the wilderness. First he speaks comfort to the people ( like Moses). Then he starts going over how we are to live our lives the Commandments like the wilderness. He is relaying the foundation. There are many warnings he gives here but 2 I think stand out. Enter by the narrow gate, Not everyone who says lord lord shall enter the kingdom. Why are they not let into the kingdom they practice lawlessness ( do not keep the commandments). He ends this with the man who hears and does what he has said is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rock is Jesus and we build on it through truth, faith and revealation. The more you use it the more that will be given to you.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#53
Though I lean more toward that Jesus is the Rock referred to here.....I really am not troubled about it because:
Jesus is the Cornerstone, we all agree on that, the Apostle's are part of the foundation, we all agree on that, so then the Cornerstone holds the rest of the foundation together and because Jesus laid all the foundation....THAT is what really matters!