Clearing the mud

[wattie]

Ok.. now concerning the Trinity

I sat down with a church member a few years ago.. and he showed me how when looking at the Trinity.. the lines between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not as distinct as many believe.

For example.. in Revelation.. which is Jesus' revelation to the seven churches.. goes from Jesus speaking to the churches to the Holy Spirit.. and not only that but the Father is also in Revelation included with Jesus. In all these instances they are doing the same thing and not really separated out from each-other.

There are many other verses like this such as the verse- 'God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth'... when you keep reading on from this verse-- it is a reference to Jesus. Because Jesus says to the lady that He is that which she was going to worship.. the Messiah she is waiting for.

The other issue I have is this:

If God is actually three beings.. and we meet all three in heaven.. that looks to me like polytheism.

So what I have come to from looking at scripture.. is ONE being expressing Himself in three ways. He can express Himself in all 3 ways at the same time. When we die.. we just meet God- not Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit as seperate beings.

Jesus is God.. the Father is God.. the Holy Spirit is God. But they are not as distinct from each-other as many would say given the above examples of scripture.

Now this is not modalism or oneness theology. The Father didn't become the Son.. the Son didn't become the Spirit.. they have always been co-existing, co-eternal, completely divine as one being.

Like our own bodies-- we are one being but with a body, mind and spirit.

Like water-- which can be ice, water and steam.

Like light- when put through a prism is variations of shade of 3 base colours.

The essence is completely one substance.. but the expression is plural.


So.. I think I agree with orthodox Trinity views of one being in three persons... but the distinction between the persons I don't see so clearly given some scriptures which seem to show them doing each-other's jobs and doing the exact same thing (another example being when we are given eternal life-- the Father gives it.. Jesus also gives it.. and the Holy Spirit seals us.

Anyway... any advice/comments?

 

[lighthousejohn]

Ok.. now concerning the Trinity

I sat down with a church member a few years ago.. and he showed me how when looking at the Trinity.. the lines between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not as distinct as many believe.

For example.. in Revelation.. which is Jesus' revelation to the seven churches.. goes from Jesus speaking to the churches to the Holy Spirit.. and not only that but the Father is also in Revelation included with Jesus. In all these instances they are doing the same thing and not really separated out from each-other.

There are many other verses like this such as the verse- 'God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth'... when you keep reading on from this verse-- it is a reference to Jesus. Because Jesus says to the lady that He is that which she was going to worship.. the Messiah she is waiting for.

The other issue I have is this:

If God is actually three beings.. and we meet all three in heaven.. that looks to me like polytheism.

So what I have come to from looking at scripture.. is ONE being expressing Himself in three ways. He can express Himself in all 3 ways at the same time. When we die.. we just meet God- not Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit as seperate beings.

Jesus is God.. the Father is God.. the Holy Spirit is God. But they are not as distinct from each-other as many would say given the above examples of scripture.

Now this is not modalism or oneness theology. The Father didn't become the Son.. the Son didn't become the Spirit.. they have always been co-existing, co-eternal, completely divine as one being.

Like our own bodies-- we are one being but with a body, mind and spirit.

Like water-- which can be ice, water and steam.

Like light- when put through a prism is variations of shade of 3 base colours.

The essence is completely one substance.. but the expression is plural.


So.. I think I agree with orthodox Trinity views of one being in three persons... but the distinction between the persons I don't see so clearly given some scriptures which seem to show them doing each-other's jobs and doing the exact same thing (another example being when we are given eternal life-- the Father gives it.. Jesus also gives it.. and the Holy Spirit seals us.

Anyway... any advice/comments?

Wattie,

I too have often pondered the concept of the trinity. I have always accepted it in faith but i am still curious. To me it is a question that will only be answered in heaven. We each must come to grips with the concept in our own minds. Some will totally deny that the trinity exists, others will acknowledge the existance but establish a hierarchy.

I like your explanation: "The Father didn't become the Son.. the Son didn't become the Spirit.. they have always been co-existing, co-eternal, completely divine as one being." It expresses what I have always believed to be true. I know there will be some that disagree but that is the nature of man, especially when dealing with a concept such as this.

Good post.

In Christ,
John

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Ok.. now concerning the Trinity

I sat down with a church member a few years ago.. and he showed me how when looking at the Trinity.. the lines between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not as distinct as many believe.

For example.. in Revelation.. which is Jesus' revelation to the seven churches.. goes from Jesus speaking to the churches to the Holy Spirit.. and not only that but the Father is also in Revelation included with Jesus. In all these instances they are doing the same thing and not really separated out from each-other.

There are many other verses like this such as the verse- 'God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth'... when you keep reading on from this verse-- it is a reference to Jesus. Because Jesus says to the lady that He is that which she was going to worship.. the Messiah she is waiting for.

The other issue I have is this:

If God is actually three beings.. and we meet all three in heaven.. that looks to me like polytheism.

So what I have come to from looking at scripture.. is ONE being expressing Himself in three ways. He can express Himself in all 3 ways at the same time. When we die.. we just meet God- not Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit as seperate beings.

Jesus is God.. the Father is God.. the Holy Spirit is God. But they are not as distinct from each-other as many would say given the above examples of scripture.

Now this is not modalism or oneness theology. The Father didn't become the Son.. the Son didn't become the Spirit.. they have always been co-existing, co-eternal, completely divine as one being.

Like our own bodies-- we are one being but with a body, mind and spirit.

Like water-- which can be ice, water and steam.

Like light- when put through a prism is variations of shade of 3 base colours.

The essence is completely one substance.. but the expression is plural.


So.. I think I agree with orthodox Trinity views of one being in three persons... but the distinction between the persons I don't see so clearly given some scriptures which seem to show them doing each-other's jobs and doing the exact same thing (another example being when we are given eternal life-- the Father gives it.. Jesus also gives it.. and the Holy Spirit seals us.

Anyway... any advice/comments?

I think that within the Trinity there is such a profound unity that there is mostly no hesitation of speaking of themselves in the singular. I do not even think that we individuals have such a profound unity because we can become internally divided in our will and purpose. I think that there is nothing that God does that is not done communally. This is where it becomes difficult for us to understand.
There is an old joke about a man who was castaway for many years. He was finally rescued and as the ship was sailing away the man and the captain were at the back of the boat, looking at the island. The captain noticed three shelters built on the island and asked about them. The man replied, " Well the one on the left is my house. The one in the middle is my church. The one on the right is the church I used to go to."

 

[Cleante]

Wattie,

I too have often pondered the concept of the trinity. I have always accepted it in faith but i am still curious. To me it is a question that will only be answered in heaven. We each must come to grips with the concept in our own minds. Some will totally deny that the trinity exists, others will acknowledge the existance but establish a hierarchy.

I like your explanation: "The Father didn't become the Son.. the Son didn't become the Spirit.. they have always been co-existing, co-eternal, completely divine as one being." It expresses what I have always believed to be true. I know there will be some that disagree but that is the nature of man, especially when dealing with a concept such as this.

Good post.

In Christ,
John

Here was my explanation from an old thread.

The distinctive characteristic of the first person, the Father, in the Holy Trinity is his Father-hood. His source lies solely in Himself and not in any other person. This is unlike the two persons of the Holy Trinity. The Son's, IC XC, distinctive characteristic is his Son-ship. Although XC is co-eternal and equal with the Father, He is not unbegotten or sourceless. His source and origin lies in the Father, from whom He is begotten or born from all eternity. The third person's, the Holy Spirit, distinctive characteristic is Procession. Just like the Son, the Holy Spirit finds His source and origin in the Father. But His relationship to the Father is different from that of the Son. The Holy Spirit is not begotten but from all eternity He proceeds from the Father. [This is where the Filioque controversy comes into play.]

It is important not to impair the balance between the three distinctive persons and the shared essence. There is one God because there is one Father, both XC and the Holy Spirit trace their origin and source to Him. The other two persons are described in terms of their relation to the Father. Since the Father is the sole source of being in the Holy Trinity, the Father constitutes in this way the ground of unity for the Godehead as a whole.

 

[wattie]

Jesus is sourceless.. He was not begotten in the terms of being born out of.. but more like 'supreme heir'

Son-- has a different meaning when talking about Son of God.. it is more along the lines of 'image, expression' than actual.. ontologically inferior being born out of the Father. The very image of God.. the bodily form of God..

 

[Cleante]

Jesus is sourceless.. He was not begotten in the terms of being born out of.. but more like 'supreme heir'

Son-- has a different meaning when talking about Son of God.. it is more along the lines of 'image, expression' than actual.. ontologically inferior being born out of the Father. The very image of God.. the bodily form of God..

I wouldn't say inferior. That wouldn't be correct in my opinon. They are equal.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Jesus is sourceless.. He was not begotten in the terms of being born out of.. but more like 'supreme heir'

Son-- has a different meaning when talking about Son of God.. it is more along the lines of 'image, expression' than actual.. ontologically inferior being born out of the Father. The very image of God.. the bodily form of God..

I don't think I would use the word inferior. If I defer out of free will to another it does not make me inferior. I think you are on the right track.

 

[quidni]

I heard a Sunday School teacher explain the Trinity this way many years ago:

Imagine a sheet of closely woven fabric, stretched tight, and you can only see one side. The side toward you has three sharp objects poking through it. The sharp objects are not connected; they poke through in different places on the fabric.

Now take a look at the other side of the fabric. What you see there is a single object, divided into three parts at one end. Those three parts are what is poking through the fabric. And you say, "Aha! we have a fork!"

The fabric represents the divide between Heaven and earth. All we can see right now is the earthly side, with three separate manifestations or entities; we know they're connected because we've been told they are but we can't see how yet. However, when we get to the Heavenly side, we'll see how the entities are all part of the same God.

 

[pickles]

I have pondered this many times in my life, mostly because I wanted to believe as Jesus has called us to.
The scriptures speak that which is hard to comprehend.
When I was a child my mother said simply it is a mistery, many have pondered over the centuries.
She then said that we will know when we see God.
Over the years I have come to simply rest in the words spoken to in the scriptures.
Not because I understand yet, but because I have yet to overcome the thinking of the world in Jesus.
I figure if I stick to the facts, then once I am able in Jesus to think as we are called to, then I will understand because of resting all in faith, in Jesus.
Consider the fish and the loaves of bread, how did it feed five thousand? Sometime the facts in the world dont add up, but in Jesus, the answer is always the correct one.
In Jesus, God bless.
pickles