Could they lose salvation in the Old testament?

[Guojing]

It would be a false assumption to believe that only Israel is required to bear their crosses for salvation. For both Jew or Gentile believers, we are are all required to bear our crosses, i.e. keep our testimony for Jesus regardless of what opposes us.

Salvation is by grace through faith alone for both Jew and Gentile. We do good works as a result of our faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who depends on works for their salvation, will be among those who will not enter into the kingdom of God. We will surely be rewarded for those good works, but we do not obtain salvation by them.

Whether Jew or Gentile, both are saved by the following:

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. "

There is not one plan of salvation for Israel and another for the church. It is through faith in Christ that both will be saved.

I see, so you believe there is no difference between the gospel of the kingdom preached to Israel, and what Paul was preaching to us in the Body of Christ, after the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11). Alright then.

But if you believe there is no difference, then why is there a need to rapture the Body of Christ before the Tribulation?

 

[Blik]

Rom 11 doesn't say new testament saints can be cut off . Gentiles as a nation yes .

Gentiles, every one of them in the OT, denied the true God. Each nation designated a false God as their personal God. Jesus changed that, and Paul became the apostle to the gentiles.

Gentiles that accepted the true God before Christ also accepted the nation of Israel. In the book of Matthews is a genealogy of Christ that includes a gentile woman, Ruth, and others that may have been---- Bathsheba, Rehab, and Tamar.

If the Lord only saw people as Hebrew or gentile, there would have been no gentiles allowed in the genealogy of Christ.

The Lord has treated the Jews as the nation of Israel, in that they have been blinded to accepting Christ as God, but how individuals in that nation believe is still accepted.

 

[throughfaith]

Hello Throughfaith!

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But if the wicked man turns from all the sins he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. Because of the righteousness he has practiced, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.

25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’

Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

26If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considered and turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die. (Ezekiel 18:21-28)

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Also, salvation for those in Christ is dependent upon continuing in faith. If a believer turns from his faith (apostasy) and dies in that state, then that person will die in their sins.

We are saved by God's grace through faith and not by a one time confession of Christ, but by taking up our crosses daily. Therefore, if a believer turns back into the world and goes back to willfully lives according to the sinful nature, in that state he is accumulating sin and is on his way to condemnation, unless of course he repents and turns back. I gave you all of those scriptures, but here is another example:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The above is an example of those who would stop having faith and no longer watching for the Lord and turning back to living according to the sinful nature, which is represented by (And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.)

If we were just saved no matter what we did after we received Christ, what would be the purpose of all of the warnings throughout scripture, as well as the letters to the seven churches in Revelation? In those letters there are promises to those who overcome and eternal consequences for those who don't. And we can't say that they are not believers, because the letters are addressed to the church and the individuals within it.

Once saved, always saved, is true if one continues in faith to the end of their life or until the Lord comes to gather His church.

Once saved, always saved, is not true if one turns away from his faith and goes back into following the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature.

So is it fair you don't see a distinction between OT salvation and NT ? And when I say NT I mean as the bible says . The NT begins with the death of Christ. The church however begins in Acts . Do you see any difference with Eph 1.13 , Eph 4.30 and with the verses that speak about what we receive that before the cross they did not ?

 

[throughfaith]

Hello Throughfaith!

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But if the wicked man turns from all the sins he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. Because of the righteousness he has practiced, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.

25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’

Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

26If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considered and turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die. (Ezekiel 18:21-28)

===========================================================

Also, salvation for those in Christ is dependent upon continuing in faith. If a believer turns from his faith (apostasy) and dies in that state, then that person will die in their sins.

We are saved by God's grace through faith and not by a one time confession of Christ, but by taking up our crosses daily. Therefore, if a believer turns back into the world and goes back to willfully lives according to the sinful nature, in that state he is accumulating sin and is on his way to condemnation, unless of course he repents and turns back. I gave you all of those scriptures, but here is another example:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The above is an example of those who would stop having faith and no longer watching for the Lord and turning back to living according to the sinful nature, which is represented by (And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.)

If we were just saved no matter what we did after we received Christ, what would be the purpose of all of the warnings throughout scripture, as well as the letters to the seven churches in Revelation? In those letters there are promises to those who overcome and eternal consequences for those who don't. And we can't say that they are not believers, because the letters are addressed to the church and the individuals within it.

Once saved, always saved, is true if one continues in faith to the end of their life or until the Lord comes to gather His church.

Once saved, always saved, is not true if one turns away from his faith and goes back into following the world and willfully living according to the sinful nature.

I notice you didn't quote from Paul ?

 

[throughfaith]

The Old Testament saints were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Since God is the Justifier, should it not be perfectly clear that not a single saint could lose his or her salvation?

HEBREWS 11: SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

All i can see in Hebrews 11 is they DID things to demonstrate their faith. Now because THEY are in Hebrews 11 we can safely assume they did not fall away or anything like this . They would have been in Abraham's bosom awaiting redemption for their sins that were only ' covered ' but not redeemed until Jesus died for them .

 

[John146]

All i can see in Hebrews 11 is they DID things to demonstrate their faith. Now because THEY are in Hebrews 11 we can safely assume they did not fall away or anything like this . They would have been in Abraham's bosom awaiting redemption for their sins that were only ' covered ' but not redeemed until Jesus died for them .

Works make faith perfect, complete. That’s why we get works along with faith in Hebrews 11.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In the OT a man was justified by his own faith. After the cross a man is justified by the faith of Christ.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Under the law a man‘s faith was justified through his obedience to the law.

 

[throughfaith]

The Old Testament saints were JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Since God is the Justifier, should it not be perfectly clear that not a single saint could lose his or her salvation?

HEBREWS 11: SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11
13¶THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH , not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Maybe they HAD to .

 

[Evmur]

Its clear that salvation cannot be lost in the church age , but what about the Old testament ? The Old testament would be the period up to the death of Jesus?

Israel's election is as sure as ours is. What is different is the inheritance they are promised, we are promised heaven, we are spiritual Israel, they are promised the ends of the earth.

All Israel was under the law, as such they could be blest in obedience to the law or punished for disobedience but still they were under the law.

We have been redeemed from the curse of the law so our salvation does not depend upon obedience to the law.

But whether we are blest and happy depends on our obedience to the gospel.

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

Its clear that salvation cannot be lost in the church age , but what about the Old testament ? The Old testament would be the period up to the death of Jesus?

Neighbour, why do you ignore the scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus? Do you not know that the Holy Ghost testifies in the New Testament that if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.