Deuteronomy 23:3 and ruth

nath1234 · Jan 9, 2012

hi i have a question regarding

this verse and ruth who was a Moabite
Deuteronomy 23:3

New International Version (NIV)

3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation.

im very interested in how this verse works and is applyed

as we know ruth is in the geniology of Jesus in mathew

mabe Avinu may know?

Nath

woodl · Jan 9, 2012

nath1234 said:

The number ten , at lease used in this fashion, was a number of indefiniteness; in other words, it meant forever; Ammon and Moab had met the Israelites with hostility; and had brought Balaam to curse them, which curse God turned upon these heathen tribes; however, those who evidenced Faith in God, even as it was with Ruth, who was a Moabitess, could definitely enter into the congregation of the Lord; in fact, Ruth, due to her Faith, was an ancestress of our Saviour. ( Matt. 1:5 )

Avinu · Jan 9, 2012

Because Ruth said "Your God will be my God, and your people will be my people" she was stating her confession of YHVH being God and was a way of repentance. By doing so she renounced her false gods, and converted to YHVH, and kept Torah. So in doing so it made her no longer a moabite(gentile), but she became a part of Israel. Just like Abraham was originally a babylonian(chaldean) but when he accepted YHVH as God of all, he became the first Hebrew(which means to 'cross over') In Torah YHVH states that if a foreigner or stranger desires to be in the land(Israel) and will follow after YHVH, then they are to be considered a part of Israel. Just as later, in Ephesians 2 Paul writes if we are of Messiah, then we are of the commonwealth of Israel. So here Ruth is a type and shadow of repentance bringing membership (so to speak) to the family of YHVH. And yes, that is correct that she is a ancestor of Yeshua.

Hope this helped, Shalom Nath

Shilo · Jan 9, 2012

I heard this from a bible teacher sometime back but I am not sure if it is the answer. The bloodline comes through the male. They were thought so wicked that they were not to hold any office among the Israelites or marry the women of Israel. This did not disqualify them from being proselytes. If someone wants to turn to GOD he does not cast them out. Ruth being a woman her bloodline is not the one that is past on. That is why Mary could have a sinless child because it was not her blood that past through Jesus but the fathers. In our time they are doing DNA test on Jews to see if they belong to the Aaron priest line. This is a genetic marker that has been past on to the men of the house of Aaron. Maybe someone else can give more light on this one way or the other.

Avinu · Jan 9, 2012

Shalom Shilo,

Ultimately it does because of Adam. Just as Yeshua comes from the line of Seth.

Who was thought so wicked?

???

Not neccessarily, for as we know, Yeshua comes from her descendants.

[QUOTEThat is why Mary could have a sinless child because it was not her blood that past through Jesus but the fathers.][/QUOTE]Scripture told us that Messiah would come from Judah, Mary and Joseph both were of the tribe of Judah, But Mary was from the descendants of David and Beth-Sheba. So YHVH took there sin and turned it to His Glory. She had a sinless child because she conceived of the Ruach Hakadesh(Holy Spirit), it was not through physical way. lol.

jews could never be of the line of Aaron, jews are of the tribe of Judah, Aaron is from the tribe of Levi. There is word of a perticular strand of dna that only hebrew people have. It is said that they can detect through this which tribe. If mine is correct I'm from the tribe of Levi. But only YHVH can truly reveal it when it's time.

Hope these answers helped, except for the second and third, need a little more info on those. Shalom

Shilo · Jan 9, 2012

The Ammonites and Moabites were thought so wicked that they were not to hold any office among the Israelites or marry the women of Israel. . This did not disqualify them from being proselytes. If someone wants to turn to GOD he does not cast them out. We are told in Romans 5:12 , just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Adam was the father of all of us men sined because they were in Adam. It was passed on through his genetic make up that comes from his blood. Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. If the sin was passed on through Eve the word would say so. Luke 20:44 David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?" He has no earthly father to taint his blood. God created Jesus Through the Holy Spirit and just as with Adam he put Blood in him. Adam is also called the son of God. Adam had clean blood before the fall. Jesus the other son of God never fell so his blood stayed pure. I do know Jesus is GOD so he never could fall. The only way Mary could have a sinless child is if the father was God. Through the genealogy in Luke it is shown that Joseph could not be Jesus’s father. If the sin was passed on through the mother then even with god as the father the child would still have sin.

I do know that Jew come from the line of Judah. In the study people who called themselves Jews and were told they came from the priest line were in the study. The people who called themselves Jews but also said they were Levites were not in the study. Then a genetic marker passed on from fathers was looked at. The DNA marker points to a common ancestor among thoses who heard they were of a priest line but not levites. The people who have done the study believe that ancestor to be the priest Aaron. The people in the Study called themselves Jews and so that is why I did.

AnandaHya · Jan 9, 2012

what joy, psuedoscience... hmmm....anyone want a basic lesson on genetics and checking one's supposedly "scientific" findings and sources?

here's an interesting fact:

red blood cells have NO DNA...

http://newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00828.htm

Avinu · Jan 9, 2012

Amen.

[QUOTEI do know that Jew come from the line of Judah. In the study people who called themselves Jews and were told they came from the priest line were in the study. The people who called themselves Jews but also said they were Levites were not in the study. Then a genetic marker passed on from fathers was looked at. The DNA marker points to a common ancestor among thoses who heard they were of a priest line but not levites. The people who have done the study believe that ancestor to be the priest Aaron. The people in the Study called themselves Jews and so that is why I did. ][/QUOTE]

I knew you knew what a jew was, I was stating it for clarification more for others. It's a bit goofy those people in the study calling themselves jews and are from a priest line. Which there is only one priestline from the 12 tribes. As you know that's the Levites. That's why (except for once or twice for the sake of arguement) you'll see me say I'm hebrew, because if my test is correct, I'm a levite not Judah. Which I'd be happy to be either one. YHVH will sort that out when it's time. lol

Shilo · Jan 9, 2012

AnandaHya said:

what joy, psuedoscience... hmmm....anyone want a basic lesson on genetics and checking one's supposedly "scientific" findings and sources?

here's an interesting fact:

red blood cells have NO DNA...
/quote]

When you say things like what I have quoted you said above. That is not very Christan like. You can put it in a way that is not argumentative. I never said it was the red blood cells only DNA. I was saying sin is carried in the blood. As for the DNAit is found in the white blood cells so it is in the blood.
I did not put it on here to have an argument but to give out information. People can look into if they want.

The test was done to find the Aaron line of the priests and that is why the levite only line was not in the test. The line of Aaron was the high priest line.

It is nice when you come on here and can find what other people have been able to dig up, Share your knowledge or find out that your understanding something missing.

When people attack others when there is no call to do so. You make a place of love and learning into something that looks so much like the world. If you talk like that to people you do not even know I would not what to be near you. How can you be trusted with ones most deep feelings. I only say this because I have read other post from you where you do the samething. I will not responed to you as I am looking for teaching to build my faith not have an argument over something that in the big picture does not help me an anyway. I pray you look into your life and find where all this hate speach comes from.

Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.
prov 18:21

There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
prov 12:18

A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.prov 15:4

Laodicea · Jan 9, 2012

The Law may have only applied to the men, Avinu gave a good answer though in post 3

Avinu · Jan 9, 2012

Just for info, the law did apply for the women as well, because YHVH even used Debra to be judge over the children of Israel.

Judges 4:4-5 4) Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. 5) And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

To be a judge you HAD to be a keeper of Torah(law).

Shalom

AnandaHya · Jan 9, 2012

"The test was done to find the Aaron line of the priests and that is why the levite only line was not in the test. The line of Aaron was the high priest line. "

this statement makes not sense. Aaron belonged to the levite only line therefore they should have been the ones tested. why would they not be in the test?

In addition sin was not passed only down by the males. even if it was then why did the line of descendent to Mary traced through her father and not her mother?

where her father and grandfather, etc sinless?

Or are you implying that women don't carry the sins of their fathers?

No one carries generational curses. its in the Bible.

you don't have to converse with me,

I've found most men listen better when other men tell them anyways even if its the exact same words spoken.

anyways back to the original thread:

I liked Avinu's answer:

and agree that the law applied to both men and women.

there are laws in Leviticus just for women about purity and such. to try and make a false distinction between men and women is unbiblical and unChristian.

yes I could sugar coat my words but most of the time that gets ignored.

I'm not being argumentative I was stating an interesting fact. I never stated YOU said that red blood cells had DNA.

just that you should be careful about believing "scientific studies" that try to make a group of humanity distinct from another. Eugenics is not a very Christian thing and that is what those studies tend to be used to promote.

if you get a group of related individuals you would find common markers. it does not prove that they descended from Aaron.

anyway here is scripture about Aaron's line of descent and the Levites:

Numbers 3:6
“Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may serve him.

Joshua 21:4
Now the lot came out for the families of the Kohathites. And the children of Aaron the priest, who were of the Levites, had thirteen cities by lot from the tribe of Judah, from the tribe of Simeon, and from the tribe of Benjamin.

therefore if you were to look for a marker that traced back to Aaron you would have to examine the Levites NOT the Jews.

however if you posted the study you are referring to it might help explain what you are trying to convey. it would be nice if you cited your sources.

Shilo · Jan 9, 2012

nath1234 said:

"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. Malachi 3:6

The bible verse does say decendants so that does make it a law for both male or female so the way I learned it was man trying to help God out. God said The Ammonites or Moabites shall not enter the assembly of the LORD forever. I know the hebrew forever does not always mean forever but can mean a very long time. I do not have my Hebrew Bible with me so I do not know how this forever is read in the Hebrew. Avinu do you know?

The more I learn the Hebrew way of looking at things the more I see that even some very common things that are being learned in western type churches are not aways correct. That is most likely why
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'" An Oracle zech 8:23

Avinu · Jan 9, 2012

In the KJV, the hebrew word for forever is 'ad pronounced ahd. It means -as long or against. So as long as they are against YHVH or against Him they will not enter His congregation/assembly.

But this will blow your mind, the word forever is not even in the true hebrew text. It ends with 'congregation of the LORD.' There is no forever, that was added in. I really wish these english translations didn't have so many add ins or take aways, it gets really irritating.

Shalom

AnandaHya · Jan 10, 2012

Avinu said:

In the KJV, the hebrew word for forever is 'ad pronounced ahd. It means -as long or against. So as long as they are against YHVH or against Him they will not enter His congregation/assembly.

But this will blow your mind, the word forever is not even in the true hebrew text. It ends with 'congregation of the LORD.' There is no forever, that was added in. I really wish these english translations didn't have so many add ins or take aways, it gets really irritating.

Shalom

yeah me too.

so Avinu what is the best way to go about learning Hebrew?

Avinu · Jan 10, 2012

Shalom AnandaHya, the best way is if you can afford a real hebrew teacher to give you private lesson once a week at least. Plus Rosetta Stone is a good self teaching course, but to get the full thing is about $600 dollars. But it is supposedly used by FBI, and people like that. Pimsleaur Modern Hebrew cd's are suppose to be good. You sit and listen and repeat. As you know, repetitive actions make things stick. Biblical hebrew, understanding the meaning of the Bible in hebrew and stuff pretty much taught myself through alot of vigorous study and research, and still do, as we will always be learning. Plus I was blessed by YHVH with a minister who's heart really is all for YHVH and not for himself, I learned alot from him and still do. But ultimately seeking YHVH to lead me in all truth, including the hebrew. Hope this helps. Shalom

nath1234 · Jan 14, 2012

Avinu said:

i havent managed to find this verse do could you find it for me ?

also if any one nows the other old testament verses talking about becoming a proselyte i would be very gratefull as when the concept is talked about it seems the word proselyte is not always mentioned.

Nath

nath1234 · Jan 14, 2012

Avinu said:

im confused are you saying forever is not mentioned or are you saying ad changes the meaning of owlam so it doesent mean forever (in the english sense of the word)

ad seems to make the word owlam conditional but how do we know what the condition is ?

Nath

resurrection33 · Jan 14, 2012

nath1234 said:

Without studying the matter, I would say that the tenth generation died long, long ago, and therefore this verse has no effect on modern day Ammonites and Moabites.

Avinu · Jan 18, 2012

Yes, the word forever is not in the original hebrew text, it was added in by KJV. There is two hebrew words for forever, one is 'ad' which means ' as long as your against', the other is 'olam' which actually means for all eternity. When they added the word forever, they used the 'ad' hebrew forever. Shalom

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