Dispensationalism...

[Jocund]

New Jerusalem does not give light to earth, it gives light to new earth. Earth and heaven fade away.

@PennEd

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [...] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." - Rev 21:1-2&23-24 KJV

 

[DavidTree]

So you believe that Paul forfeited his right to the promise by becoming Christian? Do you also believe that Christ forfeited his right to the promise by rejecting the Pharisees?



Oh, I see, so you have decided to step away from your Lev 26 argument and state that the promise can be inherited without repentance? Or do you need more time to get your story straight?

Are you claiming that every occupant of the land was there by virtue of the promises? Or do you concede that some people may be there outside of the effect of the promise?



Whoops, there you go changing your story again within the same post.

Is repentance required? The question is rhetorical at this point because you are willing to say either without an ounce of accountability in the things you say.



As of Rom 9:13 Paul is speaking to Gentiles in the audience, yes.

There is a breakdown of unsaved Israel as well. You'll notice in Romans 11:23 there is a conditional salvation for Jews when Paul states "... if they do not continue in unbelief."

There are Jews that are in a bad state and eventually receive God's mercy, and other Jews that are in a bad state and will not receive salvation. IF. It's Conditional. Get it?

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." - Gal 3:6-7 KJV

In the post crucifixion world, those of faith are Christian not antiChrist Jews.

Saul wasn't of the faith until he became Paul. I'm not saying we should give up on the Saul's of the world, but we shouldn't expect that everyone would be a Saul.

It's not as though God's promises are in vain: not all of Israel are Israel. Not all that call themselves Jews are Jews. <- That's Biblical, if you reject that your beliefs aren't.



I agree with this. But Biblically we need to understand that there is no guarantee for any particular percentage of people there to attain salvation.

I hope the best for every nation, and it was promised in Revelation that there will be those saved from every nation. There are good people everywhere.

I'm not claiming that all 0AD Gentiles became Israel. But it should be observed that just like Timothy had mixed ancestry, it is easily the fact that many people have mixed ancestry, especially considering historic diaspora. Yes, we can look at gene clustering, but the moment that door opened for free intermarriage between all nations that joined Christianity, it's hard to tell the dividing line between different groups, especially if we consider the fact that even a drop of Judean blood makes you a descendant of Abraham.

There are literally people that don't realize the true scope of their ancestry. And with promiscuity over the ages, even a well written family tree might not be 100% accurate. It's likely part of the reason that Talmudic Jews count ancestry matrilineally, to remove doubt despite the fact that counting through "seed" was patrilineal. If we consider the fact that since 2000 years ago, at 4 generations per century, everyone has 2^80 ancestors (with some level of inbreeding) which equals 1.2 heptillion (1.2 E24) ancestors relative to the beginnings of Christianity. And if even one of those ancestors was a Jew turned Christian like Timothy's mother, there may not be a written history of it, but that person would be related to Abraham through Judah's bloodline. That would show up as a blip of nothing statistically on a gene analysis, but it wouldn't change the fact that the person truly has that bloodline.

You can't just say that the Church isn't Israel firstly because 1) denying the ancestry of random people is hateful and obtuse. 2) At the time of New Jerusalem, there is no nation of Israel. 3) If a man and wife become one, and Christ is Israel, what does that make the Church and the Bridegroom, Christ?



On one hand, to my question "Do you agree that the promises have continuity through Christians?" you stated "NO!" And yet here you are in this quote inferring that Jews that became Christians still have the promises. Those are contradictory premises. Either there is continuity or there isn't. It can't be both.

Consider these points:
1) Did Timothy qualify for the promises?
2) Did hypothetical Christian descendants of Timothy qualify for the promises?

I'm beating a dead horse here. You know you screwed up. I doubt you will acknowledge that. It doesn't take a genius to realize that you literally made two completely opposite points in the same post. Unless you are willing to reevaluate your comments and demonstrate some accountability, the only tactic left at your disposal is attacking character, and if that's the case, I have nothing more to say to you, as you will have been just another deceitful doubleminded Dispensationalist.

Everyone seems to be missing the final conclusion in Romans ch11 on the subject of Jews according to the flesh.

This concluding statement is Paramount to understanding who the Israel of God is.

"Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
And if they(Jews of the flesh) do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

There is only ONE TREE of Salvation that both Jew and Gentile grow from.

***No Gentiles are removed so that the Tree only consists of the flesh seed of Abraham.***

Abraham means 'father of nations' plural and the ONE TREE of Salvation remains that way for Eternity.

 

[presidente]

@GRACE_ambassador

5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

If you want to communicate whatever position it is you hold, how about quote verses and show how they support whatever point you make. I suspected you were pre-trib because your layout is similar to someone who went by DivineWaterMark, or something like that, but without quite as much gratuitous use of brackets and capital letters.

Anyway, if your point is to support pretrib, I'd like to point out that these verses say Jesus will take the saints to heaven at the coming of Jesus. The last verse mentions the heavenly kingdom (though that part is italicized, but shows up in the Greek in at least one interlinear.) That's not the same thing as saying the verses say anything about Jesus taking the saints to heaven when He gathers them. Where do you get that?

At the parousia, the saints meet the Lord in the air as He returns. That fits these passages. John saw the bride descending out of heaven AFTER the thousand year reign.

 

[GWH]

"

...“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the Dispensation​

of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the Word of God; Even​

the Mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations,​

but now is made manifest to His saints.”—Colossians 1:25,26...​

...Some believe that there are only three administrations, which they divide
accordingly: Father, Son and Holy Spirit...

...the other end of the spectrum, there are those who teach that there are as
many as twelve dispensations....

...we hold the position that there are eight dispensations:

1. Dispensation of Innocence (Gen. 1:27,28).

2. Dispensation of Conscience (Gen. 3:7; Rom. 2:14,15).

3. Dispensation of Human Government (Gen. 9:1-7).

4. Dispensation of Promise (Gen. 12:1-3; 13:14-17).

5. Dispensation of the Law (Ex. 19,20).

6. Dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:1-6).

7. Dispensation of Divine Government (Psa. 2:1-12; Rev. 11:15-19; Rev. 20).

8. Dispensation of the Fullness of Times (Eph. 1:10; II Peter 3:12,13)...
"
(P Sadler)

FULL study:
Dispensationalism (1)
Dispensationalism (2)

GRACE And Peace...

No 1. Dispensation of Innocence (Gen. 1:27,28). The time between receiving God's moral requirement and breaking it was brief and probably theoretical. The salvational status of innocent babies is not addressed/answered in Scripture. Thus, this moment does not meet the criteria for a dispensation of grace.

Yes 2. Dispensation of Conscience (Gen. 3:7; Rom. 2:14,15). Yes, this marks the situation of humans from the moment they acquire a conscience until they receive revelation of how to be saved, which per Scripture did not occur until Abraham's insight that there is one true God, so this is a dispensation in which folks were judged on the basis of what is revealed by creation and conscience.

No 3. Dispensation of Human Government (Gen. 9:1-7). This does not qualify as a distinct dispensation, because it has nothing to do with God's revelation and grace to individuals. It is merely manifests collective conscience.

Yes 4. Dispensation of Promise (Gen. 12:1-3; 13:14-17). I guess this refers to the status of humans after receiving revelation akin to Abraham until they learn what was revealed to Moses and the Prophets during the OC/OT era, and so it qualifies, because God judged folks on the basis of the truth they had available.

Yes 5. Dispensation of the Law (Ex. 19,20). This refers to those who had access to the OT, and thus is a dispensation for those folks.

YES! 6. Dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:1-6). This refers to those who have access to the NT/Gospel, which supersedes the OC dispensation.

? 7. Dispensation of Divine Government (Psa. 2:1-12; Rev. 11:15-19; Rev. 20). Not sure what this refers to, so we will deal with that dispensation when we come to it.

Dup 8. Dispensation of the Fullness of Times (Eph. 1:10; II Peter 3:12,13)... This appears to duplicate grace.