Dispensations of Holy Spirit to Church, Islam ?

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W

Widdekind

Guest
#1
The early Church grew, in the western world, from the 1st-4th centuries AD, to political power. But, the Church did not grow, in the eastern world. The "pillar" Apostles (Simon Peter, James, John) & Paul all focused their ministries, in Jerusalem and the western world. Only lesser known Apostles ministered in the Middle East, e.g. "doubting" Thomas in India. If Holy Spirit empowered the Church in the western world, then why did Holy Spirit not also empower the Church in the Middle East ? If Holy Spirit had done so, then the Parthian empire would also have become Christian, in the 4th century AD, creating a single Christian super-state, encompassing the former Roman + Parthian empires, spanning from Spain to India.

Did Parthia somehow "resist" Holy Spirit, from the God of Abraham in heaven ? Not seemingly. The Holy Spirit, which could have been dispensed to Christian Apostles (e.g. Thomas), to grow the Church, in the 1st-4th centuries AD, was delayed & re-directed, to the Prophet Muhammad, to grow the "Mosque" of Islam:


  • Apostle Thomas --> Prophet Muhammad
  • Church of Christ in east --> "Mosque" of Islam in east

Seemingly, the "missing dispensation of Holy Spirit", which "should" have grown the Church of Christ in the Middle East, by the 4th century AD, was somehow delayed several centuries, and re-directed, to Islam.

Such seems a potentially important point, to try to understand. Why did the Apostle Thomas (and other eastern Apostles) not receive, seemingly, the same "outpouring of Holy Spirit from heaven", as did Christians in the western world? And why was that "missing dispensation" seemingly manifested, several centuries later, to Muslims ?
 
D

doulos

Guest
#2
For starters the eastern church did flourish and grow until it was conquered and wiped out in the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] and 8[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries by islam. So your Scripturally bankrupt guess work theology promoting this fallacy is built on a faulty premise.

Islam teaches the opposite of Christianity, the teachings of islam do not come from God, but instead are satanically inspired!
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Surah 19:88 - 89 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Christianity believes and teaches that God gave His only begotten Son so that all who believe might have eternal life. Yet islam teaches the opposite and even goes so far as to say that to even suggest God has a Son is most monstrous.

The crucifixion of Christ was witnessed by many.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ did occur just as Scripture said it would.

Even secular historians of the first century confirmed that Jesus was crucified, and Jews from every major sect of Judaism also believe that Jesus was killed, in the first century. Jesus' crucifixion was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance, by old covenant prophets, as well as by Jesus Christ Himself.

Yet Mohammed came along six centuries after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, copying a doctrine created by Simon "magnus" the Magician from Samaria, a Gnostic who claimed that it only appeared that Jesus died on the cross. The doctrine of the cult that followed this magician is called "Simonianism". Mohammad received the doctrine through Waraqa, the Ebionite occult priest and cousin of mohammad's first wife Khadijah. Through this heresy Mohammad claimed that all of the witnesses of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ somehow didn't actually see what they witnessed:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

That is the single most deadly verse in the quran, exposing Mohammad's "revelations" as being the exact and perfect opposite, of the whole subject of the Gospel. Mohammad's followers must reject the blood that would save them, as a fundamental of their faith, in Mohammad's 7th century invention. This, even as Mohammad is revealed through Islam's own books, as being a child doing, lying, thieving, murderer which coincidently is the exact opposite of the sinless Messiah Jesus Christ.

Surah 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

If God and allah are the same why would allah instruct mohammad’s followers to fight the people of the book (bible)? Wouldn’t that result in a divided kingdom?

Mar 3:24 - 25 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#3
For starters the eastern church did flourish and grow until it was conquered and wiped out in the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] and 8[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries by islam.

the western world converted to Christianity in the 4th century AD; the (middle) eastern world never did. The Roman empire converted to Christ; the Parthian empire never did.

If the Church in the western world grew, empowered by Holy Spirit per Church tradition; then the Holy Spirit "should" have grown & empowered the Church in the (middle) eastern world, too. The failure of the Church in the middle east suggests a lack of empowering Holy Spirit, dispensed to them, from God in heaven.



Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Surah 19:88 - 89 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
The Christian Gospels use the words "son" in a spiritual sense; the Koran opposes those who use the word in a literal sense, like the pagan Roman emperors who claimed to be literal sons of Gods, i.e. claiming that (a) God was part of their personal pedigree.

no intrinsic conflict, between both Religions. Evidently, though, some heterodox pseudo-Christians had been teaching, in Arabia, that Jesus was a Greek-like hero, the actual child of a human-formed Zeus-God. Evidently, the Prophet Muhammad opposed "anti-docetic" Christian heretics; and then the Koran was used, to attack all Christians, as if they all were such "anti-docetic" heretics. Again, evidently, people proclaiming a distorted Christianity, carried their distortions to Arabia, where the Prophet Muhammad opposed them. But, then, all other Christians, in the western world, were fought, being de facto condemned, for "anti-docetic" (for want of worthier words) heresy, which they themselves had never held. Church tradition has never (to my knowledge) held, that Jesus was the biological offspring of an anthropomorphic Zeus-like pagan-like God.

In theory, nothing Muhammad stated there, goes against Church tradition (to my knowledge). In practice, Christians in the western world seem to have been de facto judged, as if they had in fact said, that Jesus was "son" of God in some fleshly way. The Apostle Paul states Jesus was "born of a woman" (Gal 4). Christians only claim, that the birth of Jesus was miraculous, being somehow brought about by Holy Spirit dispensed from God in heaven to earth (and that the birth was accompanied by other signs & miracles & Visions). Jesus was the "Holy Spiritual son" of God, which is not what Muhammad was opposing.

Muhammad opposed a Christian heresy, with words which were afterwards applied against all Orthodox Christians, in the Graeco-Roman world.


Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not
Jesus + Judas + 11 Apostles ----> "Resurrected" Jesus + 11 Apostles + body + empty tomb​

According to facts, logic, & reasoning, a scientifically-minded skeptic would infer, that Judas "took the bullet for his Boss", and was crucified instead of Jesus. Joseph of Arimathea retrieved Judas' body off of the cross... somehow the body was hung up on the south side of the city, making it look like suicide... and the tomb was empty on Sunday morning, because it had never been filled.

None of that denies any of the miracles, nor the Divinely Inspired Prophesying of Jesus. Judas would not have substituted himself for Jesus, had he not been persuaded, that Jesus was the Messiah, as the Koran nominally affirms, "Issa = Massih" (Jesus = Messiah).

The Resurrection can be explained, with the above simple, straight-forward, (available) facts + logic + reasoning. Judas was crucified for Jesus, whom Judas believed was the Messiah. 10 of 11 other Apostles also were martyred, for Jesus, as Messiah. So, there is some sort of circular logic -- everybody believed Jesus was the Messiah, so Jesus survived the Crucifixion (because Judas stepped in for Him), and so Christianity converted the western world (because the Apostles, Disciples, and Holy martyrs kept stepping in for His Cause).

no intrinsic conflict, between both Religions




Surah 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

If God and allah are the same why would allah instruct mohammad’s followers to fight the people of the book (bible)? Wouldn’t that result in a divided kingdom?
Apparently, the Koran states "fight those who believe not in ... the Religion of Truth of the people of the Book". According to Christians, they abide the Religion of Truth of the Law & Prophets (including NT). Does the Koran state, "fight Christians" ? Or, was the Koran used, to justify fighting Christians ?

http://submission.org/d/x/webqt.php

[TABLE="class: tll, width: 1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: trnslb, align: left"]Khalifa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vrs_t"]You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: trnslb, align: left"]Yusuf Ali[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vrs_t"]Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: trnslb, align: left"]Shakir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vrs_t"]Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: trnslb, align: left"]"Progressive Muslims"[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: vrs_t"]Fight those who do not believe in God or the last day, and they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the scripture; until they pay the fine, willingly or unwillingly.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Feb 26, 2011
46
1
0
#4
For starters the eastern church did flourish and grow until it was conquered and wiped out in the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] and 8[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries by islam. So your Scripturally bankrupt guess work theology promoting this fallacy is built on a faulty premise.

Islam teaches the opposite of Christianity, the teachings of islam do not come from God, but instead are satanically inspired!
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Surah 19:88 - 89 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Christianity believes and teaches that God gave His only begotten Son so that all who believe might have eternal life. Yet islam teaches the opposite and even goes so far as to say that to even suggest God has a Son is most monstrous.

The crucifixion of Christ was witnessed by many.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ did occur just as Scripture said it would.

Even secular historians of the first century confirmed that Jesus was crucified, and Jews from every major sect of Judaism also believe that Jesus was killed, in the first century. Jesus' crucifixion was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance, by old covenant prophets, as well as by Jesus Christ Himself.

Yet Mohammed came along six centuries after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, copying a doctrine created by Simon "magnus" the Magician from Samaria, a Gnostic who claimed that it only appeared that Jesus died on the cross. The doctrine of the cult that followed this magician is called "Simonianism". Mohammad received the doctrine through Waraqa, the Ebionite occult priest and cousin of mohammad's first wife Khadijah. Through this heresy Mohammad claimed that all of the witnesses of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ somehow didn't actually see what they witnessed:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

That is the single most deadly verse in the quran, exposing Mohammad's "revelations" as being the exact and perfect opposite, of the whole subject of the Gospel. Mohammad's followers must reject the blood that would save them, as a fundamental of their faith, in Mohammad's 7th century invention. This, even as Mohammad is revealed through Islam's own books, as being a child doing, lying, thieving, murderer which coincidently is the exact opposite of the sinless Messiah Jesus Christ.

Surah 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

If God and allah are the same why would allah instruct mohammad’s followers to fight the people of the book (bible)? Wouldn’t that result in a divided kingdom?

Mar 3:24 - 25 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
The truth about Islam

false and fabricated things cannot hide the bright face of Islam.

false allegations cannot hide the pious life of prophet Muhammad(pbuh).He (pbuh)never spoke a lie in his life time.He (pbuh)led a pious life even from his childhood.Even his(pbuh)worst enemies admitted that.Quran is the last message of God almighty given to him .
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#5
Does Islam actually hold to the following as the Christian faith does?


  1. Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God
  2. Jesus Christ is God and Lord Himself
  3. Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross and shed His blood for our sins?
  4. Jesus Christ rose from the dead
If not, believe what you want, but let's not pretend the differences are minor.
 
Oct 22, 2011
628
7
18
#6
The truth about Islam
The Truth About Islam

Observations by Dr. David R. Reagan

Ever since the Attack on America on September 11, 2001, we have heard a never-ending chorus of voices from government, academia, and the media assuring us that the Islamic terrorists who attacked the Trade Towers and the Pentagon are not repre­sentative of “true Islam.” We have been likewise assured by spiritual leaders — even some Christian spokesmen — that Islam is a religion of peace, and that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews.

“Our war is not against Islam,” we have been told repeatedly. “Our war is against terrorism.”

Central Questions

Well, what about it?

Are Muslims the spiritual brothers and sisters of Christians and Jews?

Do we all worship the same God?

Are the Islamic holy scriptures, known as the Koran, inspired by God?

Is Islam another path to God by which one can attain eternal life?

Are the Islamic fundamentalists representative of true Islam, or are they a terrible aberration of an otherwise peace-loving religion?

Is our war really a political one against international terrorists, or is it a spiritual battle against a demonic, intolerant, militant, and imperialistic religion known as Islam?
An Historical Perspective on Islam

Let’s begin our consideration of these questions with some historical background.

Muhammad, the man who dictated the Koran and gave birth to Islam, was born in Mecca in the Saudi Arabian peninsula in 570 A.D. His father died before he was born, and his mother died when he was six years old. He was raised first by a grand­father and later by an uncle.

Muhammad was illiterate throughout his life. Until the age of 25 he worked in caravans. During his extensive travels, he encountered many Christians and Jews. Through his conversations with them, he picked up bits and pieces of both Judaism and Christianity.

His life was radically changed at age 25 when he met a wealthy widow 40 years old who fell in love with him. Their marriage enabled Muhammad to live a life of leisure from that point on.

Muhammad’s Call

Fifteen years after his marriage, at age 40, Muhammad had a visitation from a spirit. Supposedly, this spirit told him that he was called of God to be a “prophet” and an “apostle.” It is in­teresting to note that there was no tradition in Arabian religions of either prophets or apostles. These terms were obviously used by Muhammad to appeal to Jews and Christians.

Muhammad continued to have spirit visitations. They would throw him into a trance, and his utterances during the trances were written down by scribes. These ethereal statements became the Koran, but they were not compiled until after Muhammad’s death. When the compilation was made, the utterances were not organized either chronologically or by subject matter. The result was a jumble of disorganized and often incoherent sayings which are frequently contradictory.

For example, the Koran[SUP]1[/SUP] gives four conflicting accounts of Muhammad’s call to be a prophet [the word, Sura, means chapter]:

Suras 53 and 81 — God, or Allah as he is called in Arabic, personally appeared to Muhammad.

Suras 16 and 26 — The call was from the Holy Spirit.

Sura 15 — Angels issued the call.

Sura 2 — Gabriel was the one who appeared to him.
Muhammad’s Revelations

At the time Muhammad received his initial visitation, there were over 300 gods being worshiped in Mecca by pilgrims who came there each year to pray at the Ka’aba, a small cubic building that housed a black meteorite and effigies of the various gods. One of those gods was Allah, the moon god.

Muhammad decided to proclaim that there was only one god — and he selected Allah as that god. That’s the reason the crescent moon became the symbol of Islam. Muhammad also proclaimed that he was the prophet of Allah.

Initially, Muhammad expected both Jews and Christians to receive his new revelation. Thus, early passages in the Koran speak admiringly of “the people of the Book.” These are the passages that Muslims in the West love to quote in their effort to prove that Islam is a tolerant religion. An example is Sura 5:82 which says, “You will find that those who are nearest in love to the believers [Muslims] are those who say, ‘We are Christians.’”

Muhammad’s Rejection

But when Jews and Christians rejected Muhammad, he turned fiercely against them, and later passages in the Koran speak of them disparagingly:

Sura 5:51 commands Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends.

Sura 9:29 commands Muslims to fight against Jews and Christians until they either submit to Allah or else agree to pay a special tax.

Sura 2:65-66 and Sura 5:60 contain references to Jews as “apes and swine to be despised and rejected.” (Think of that! You can be sure that such a statement did not come from the true God of this universe who selected the Jews to be His Chosen People.)
Jews and Christians were not the only ones who rejected Muhammad’s new revelations. The people of his own tribe, the Quraysh, also rejected him. In response, Muhammad succumbed to the temptation to appease his tribe by announcing that it would be okay for them to worship the three daughters of Allah — named Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Ma­nat.

This declaration led to the infamous “Satanic verses” of the Koran which were later deleted when Muhammad reverted back to monotheism. Muslims have tried ever since to cover-up this diversion from the faith. You may remember that in 1989 an Indian writer by the name of Salman Rushdie brought up this taboo topic when he wrote a novel entitled, The Satanic Verses. The Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran condemned him and called for his assassination. A three million dollar bounty was placed on his head, and he has been in hiding ever since.

Muhammad’s Trek

The opposition to Muhammad in his home town of Mecca continued to grow until he was forced to flee 250 miles to Medina where his message was received. The Islamic calendar dates from this year when Muhammad fled to Medina and found a receptive audience, resulting in the formal establishment of Islam as a religion. It was the year 622 A.D., and that date represents year one of the Muslim calendar, which is a lunar calendar. The year 2001 is the year 1422 in the Muslim dating system.

After the death of his wife, Muhammad married at least 11 other women (some sources place the total as high as 16). He also took several concubines. He married one girl who was only six years old and had sexual relations with her when she was 9.[SUP]2[/SUP] According to the Koran, only the prophet could have unlimited wives. All other Muslim men are limited to four (Sura 4:3).

Muhammad died on June 8, 632 A.D. in Medina at age 63. He left no successor, and Islam soon broke into warring sects such as the Shiites and the Sunnis.

The Spread of Islam

All of those who survived Muhammad took up the sword, as directed by the Koran, and devoted themselves to advancing Islam through military might. The resulting spread of the religion was phenomenal. Within a century, Islamic forces had conquered Saudi Arabia, the entire Middle East, Central Asia, and large parts of India. The armies raged through Egypt and across North Africa, destroying corrupt Byzantine Christianity in their path.

In 710 A.D.[SUP]3[/SUP] the Islamic armies crossed the Straits of Gibral­tar and quickly conquered three-fourths of Spain and Portugal. They then invaded France and took one-third of the nation. They were 125 miles from Paris when they were miraculously defeated at the Battle of Poitiers (also known as the Battle of Tours) in 732 A.D. by a French army led by Charles Martel. Their influence in Spain lived on for a few more centuries before they were slowly driven back to North Africa.

A second powerful attempt to subjugate all of Europe was made 900 years later in the 17th Century when the Turks began to expand their Ottoman Empire. They took Greece, Yugosla­via, Bulgaria, and parts of Romania and Hungary. By 1683 they had reached the gates of Vienna where once again the Western forces won a miraculous victory against overwhelming odds.
Following this second attempt to conquer Europe, Islam fell into a state of depression and stagnation until it was awakened in the 20th Century due to several factors:

The Amassing of Great Wealth — due to the discovery of vast reservoirs of oil in Arab lands.

The Re-establishment of the Nation of Israel — interpreted by Islamic clerics like Khomeini as a judgment of Allah due to Islamic stagnation and apostasy.

The Positioning of U.S. Armed Forces — the placement during the 1990's of American troops throughout the Middle East in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

The Encroachment of Western Culture into the Muslim World — due to the penetration of Western movies, television programs, and consumer goods.
The Cultural Nature of Islam

The encroachment of Western culture cannot be stressed too much. It seems trivial to most Westerners, but that is because of the failure to understand that Islam is a cultural religion that deifies 7th Century Arabian culture.[SUP]4[/SUP]

Westerners tend to view religion as something intensely personal and private, and not as a cultural phenomenon. For example, Christianity is “supra-cultural” in that it allows people to live, dress and eat in accordance with the culture in which they exist. This is not so with Islam. In Islam there is no “secular realm” that is free of religion. Islam regulates every aspect of life to the point that religion, politics, and culture are inseparable. Islam is thus fueled by a subtle form of racism in which 7th Century Arab culture is to be imposed upon all other cultures.

Here are some examples of the cultural nature of Islam:

Political Structure —
The tribalism of 7th Century Arabia is the political structure sanctioned by the Koran. The chief has absolute authority. There is no concept of civil rights. This principle is reflected today in the reality that all Islamic countries are ruled by dictators, and civil liberties, like freedom of speech and religion, do not exist.

Prayer —
A Muslim is required to pray five times a day toward Mecca. This is a symbol of the underlying cultural imperialism that lies at the heart of Islam. Think of it — what if all Russian Orthodox throughout the world were required to pray toward Moscow? Or, if all Roman Catholics were required to face Rome when they prayed? What if Evangelical Christians were required to pray toward Jerusalem? Such requirements would imply a cultural attachment to the focal point of prayer.

Pilgrimage —
A Muslim is required, despite the hardship and cost, to make a pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia once in his lifetime. Again, what if all Christians were required to go to Rome once in their lifetimes?

Dietary Laws —
The only foods allowable are those that were acceptable in 7th Century Arabia.

Women —
What an illiterate, nomadic tribeswoman wore in the desert in 7th Century Arabia is what is mandated for Muslim women today. The plight of women in Islamic countries today is despicable. They can be kept prisoners in their homes. They cannot appear in public without a covering. They are usually denied the right to vote. They are often denied anything more than a rudimentary education. In strict Islamic countries, women are generally treated as sub-human.[SUP]5[/SUP] Sura 4:34 says, “Men are the managers of the affairs of women . . . Those women who are rebellious — admonish them, banish them to their couches, and beat them.”

Punishment —
Cruel and unusual punishment is practiced throughout the Islamic world. Incarceration without due process is common. Punishments often include torture, the cutting off of body parts (hands, ears and tongues), the gouging out of eyes, beheading, and public flogging — all representative of 7th Century Arabian culture. The Koran specifically commands that those who disobey Allah are to be tortured (Sura 8:12-14).

Time
magazine recently presented a chilling summary of the cultural nature of Islam as it is evidenced in the “moderate” Islamic nation of Saudi Arabia:[SUP]6[/SUP]

Despite the modernization that took place after the discovery of oil reserves in 1938, Saudi Arabia remains a land where rigid religious and traditional values are strictly enforced. Cinemas and discos are outlawed; men and women are separated in banks, schools, and fast-food restaurants; women must wear veils and are forbidden to drive. Public decency police known as muttawa comb shopping malls searching for women whose loose scarves reveal a curl of hair and forcing store owners to shut during prayer times. Unforgiving Saudi jus­tice is on view after the main prayer every Friday, when a swordsman beheads blindfolded murderers, sorcerers, drug smugglers, and other criminals in Riyadh’s “Chop-chop Square.”
 
Oct 22, 2011
628
7
18
#7
The Spiritual Nature of Islam

Islam is a typical works salvation religion centered around a false god. Its fundamental tenets deny the heart of the Christian Gospel, revealing its demonic origin.


The Koran —
As I have already pointed out, the holy book of Islam is riddled with contradictions. Consider, for example, what it says about creation. In one place it asserts that Allah created everything in “the twinkling of an eye” (Sura 54:49-50). Elsewhere it says that the time period of the creation was two days (Sura 41:9, 12); four days (Sura 41:10); six days (Suras 7:54, 10:4, and 32:4); in “a day equaling 1,000 years” (Sura 32:5); and also in “50,000 years” (Sura 70:4). That’s a total of six different time periods!

The Koran contains many scientific errors. A crude example is found in Sura 18:8-86 where it says that Alexander the Great followed the setting of the sun and discovered that it went down into the waters of a muddy spring!

Many Arabian fairy tales about genies are contained in the Koran, and the book is also full of historical errors. It presents Mary the mother of Jesus as the sister of Moses and Aaron (obviously confusing her with their sister, Miriam). The Noahic flood is placed in the time of Moses, and the claim is made that one of Noah’s sons refused to enter the Ark and was drowned.

The Koran also pictures Abraham as offering Ishmael as a sacrifice in Mecca, whereas the biblical account has Abraham offering Isaac on Mt. Moriah in the area that would later become the heart of Jerusalem.

God —
The Koran asserts that the god of Islam is the God of Christians and Jews (Sura 29:46). Nothing could be farther from the truth.[SUP]7[/SUP]

The god of Islam, Allah, is most definitely not the God of the Bible. Allah is presented in the Koran as an autocratic ruler who is aloof and arbitrary (Sura 5:40). Allah is unknow­able whereas the God of the Bible is knowable (2 Timothy 1:12). Allah is impersonal, unlike the personal God the Scriptures reveal (1 Peter 5:6-7). Allah is unitarian (Sura 4:48) whereas the God of the Bible is trinitarian (2 Corinthians 13:14). Here is what the Koran says about the God of the Bible (Sura 4:171): “Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son.”

Allah is capricious (Sura 2:284), whereas the true God is trustworthy. And Allah is never anywhere presented as a god of love — which is the essence of the nature of the true God (1 John 4:7-16).

Jesus —
The Koran denies point blank that Jesus was the Son of God (Sura 112:2-3). It also denies His atoning sacrifice by claiming that he never died (Sura 4:157). A substitute died for Him on the Cross. Jesus was translated to Heaven, like Enoch, where He will remain until He returns to kill all pigs, destroy all crosses, and convert the world to Islam. Jesus will marry, reign for 40 years and then die and be buried next to Muhammad in Medina.[SUP]8[/SUP] Jesus is characterized in the Koran as nothing more than “an apostle of Allah” (Sura 4:171).

Sin —
There is no concept of sin in Islam and therefore no need for forgiveness. Shame replaces sin. Everything is a matter of honor verses dishonor.[SUP]9[/SUP] In the Muslim view, man does not need redemption, he only needs some guidance so that he might develop the inherently pure nature with which the Creator has endowed him. If he will be faithful in his prayers, almsgiving and fasting, God is likely to overlook his failures and usher him into Paradise.[SUP]10[/SUP]

Ethics —
The situation determines the appropriate action, not a standard of right and wrong. As an example, Al Ghazzali (1058 - 1111), one of the greatest Muslim theologians, wrote: “Know that a lie is not wrong in itself. If a lie is the only way of obtaining a good result, it is permissible. We must lie when truth leads to unplea­sant results.”[SUP]11[/SUP] The Koran sanctions revenge: “If anyone transgresses . . . against you, transgress likewise against him” (Sura 2:194).

Salvation —
Islam is a religion of works. One obtains favor with Allah by performing the five pillars of the faith:

Reciting the creed that there is one god, Allah, and his prophet is Muhammad.

Praying five times a day toward Mecca.

Giving alms to the poor.

Fasting from sunrise to sunset one month a year during the month of Ramadan.

Making a pilgrimage to Mecca.
Another way to reach Paradise is to die fighting for Allah (Sura 3:157).
Islam is so works oriented that it teaches that good deeds cancel bad ones (Sura 11:114). In contrast to all this emphasis on works, the true Word of God teaches that it is impossible to earn salvation because it is a gift of God’s grace that is received through faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Heaven —
The Islamic Paradise is a place of sensual pleasure consisting of gluttonous feasts and endless sex orgies (Suras 52:17-24; 55:54-56; and 78:32-34).

The Intolerant and Militant Nature of Islam

One of the most controversial issues regarding Islam concerns whether or not it is a militant religion. Muslims in the West argue it is peace-loving. Westerners who have experienced it in the Muslim world argue it is inherently in­tolerant and militant.

The Koran itself preaches intolerance toward other religions. Sura 5 contains the following command: “Take not Jews and Christians for friends . . . He among you who takes them for friends is one of them . . . Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians] . . But keep your duty to Allah” (verses 51, 55, 57). Extreme intolerance is commanded in Sura 5:33 — “[For those who do not submit to Allah] their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land.”

The Koran also expresses an intolerant attitude toward any person who decides to reject the Islamic faith or convert to another religion. Such persons are to be executed (Sura 9:12). In the Hadith (the oral tradition of Muhammad’s sayings) it says “Whoever changes his religion, kill him” (Hadith 9:57). These commands are practiced in all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

With regard to militancy, the Koran not only condones it, it commands it:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and [some of] you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not (Sura 2:16).

Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war (Sura 9:5).

Fight in the way of Allah . . . and slay them [the unbelievers] wherever you find them and drive them out . . . and fight them until . . . religion is for Allah (Sura 2:190-193).
Muhammad is quoted in the Hadith as saying, “The sword is the key of heaven and hell. A drop of blood in the cause of Allah — a night spent in arms [war] — is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer. Whosoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment, his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim.”[SUP]12[/SUP]

Muslim Propaganda

Muslims living in Western democracies try to defend their religion by quoting Sura 2:256 which says, “There is no compulsion in religion.”

In evaluating this very lonely verse in the Koran, you need to keep in mind first that it was written before Muhammad was rejected by Jews, Christians and his fellow Arabs — before he fled to Medina and started responding in hatred to all his detractors. But even more important is the fact that Islamic teachers themselves argue that this verse was later abrogated, either by the words or actions of Muhammad.[SUP]13[/SUP]

Some argue that the verse was abrogated by Muhammad’s later orders for his troops to fight until unbelievers were compelled to surrender to Islam.

Others argue it was abrogated by Sura 9:73 which says, “O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be harsh with them.”


A third group argues that the words of the verse do not mean what they seem to say. They argue the words mean that religion cannot be used to force someone to do some­thing evil, but compelling people to accept the truth of Allah is a religious duty.

A fourth group of Islamic clerics accepts the words to mean what they say, but they argue that they were part of Allah’s strategy to advance Islam. While Muslims were weak, Allah spoke through Muhammad and told them to tolerate infidels. But when the Muslims became strong, Allah commanded them to cease being tolerant and attack and subdue the infidels.
The bottom line is that regardless of the explanation, the result is the same — the verse has been abrogated, and infidels must embrace Islam or face death.

Muslims sometimes counter by pointing to the intolerance and violence that have characterized both Jews and Christians at certain times in their histories. They point to the slaughter of the Canaanites when the Jews took the Promised Land under the leadership of Joshua. And, of course, they point to the Christian Crusades in the Middle Ages. Using these examples, they accuse Jews and Christians of being hypocritical in attacking the in­tolerance and violence of Islam today.
With regard to the Jews, this argument ignores the fact that God used them as an instrument of His judgment against the tribes living in Canaan — just as He later used the Assyrians and Chal­deans to judge the Jews (Genesis 15:16; Leviticus 18:24-25; Deuteronomy 9:5). He never told the Jews to conquer the world for Him, and He provided them with precise instructions as to how they were to treat aliens who might wish to live among them. They were to be treated with dignity and were to be pro­vided with justice (Leviticus 19:17, 33 and Deuteronomy 27:19). Even more, the Jews were commanded to love their neighbors as they loved themselves (Leviticus 19:18).

Regarding the Christian Crusades, they were an aberration in Christian history based upon perverted Catholic doctrine and not upon any biblical injunction. In contrast, the intolerance and violence that have characterized Islam throughout its history are firmly rooted in the Koran.

What a contrast all the ghastly commands of Muhammad are to the loving words of Jesus who told Christians:

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44).

“Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39).

“Do not judge, lest you be judged” (Matthew 7:1).
“However you want people to treat you, so treat them” (Mat­thew 7:12).

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39).

“This is my commandment that you love one another” (John 15:12, 17).

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13).
And what a contrast it is between the admonition of Muhammad to conquer for Allah with the sword and Jesus’ exhortation to go forth in peace and appeal to people’s hearts through the preaching of the Gospel, relying on the persuasive power of God’s Holy Spirit.

The Imperialistic Nature of Islam

From its inception, Islam has been committed to what it calls jihad — a word mean­ing holy war. The duty of Muslims is to subjugate or destroy “infidels” — the term the Koran uses for all non-believers.

In the Muslim viewpoint, the world is divided into two regions — those areas controlled by Islam, called Dar al-Islam (meaning the House of Islam) and those called Dar al-Harb (the House of War). The Koran commands Mus­lims to fight non-Muslims until they exterminate all other religions, leaving Islam as the one and only religion in the world (Suras 2:193 and 8:39). Muhammad is quoted in the Hadith as saying, “I have been ordered to fight with the people until they say, none has the right to be worshiped but Allah” (Hadith 4:196).

Regarding terror, Allah orders Muslims to terrorize non-Muslims on his behalf: “Strike terror (into the hearts of ) the enemies of Allah and your enemies” (Sura 8:60). Allah then assures his followers that he will assist them: “I will instill terror into the hearts of unbelievers. Smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not you who slay them, it is Allah” (Sura 8:12, 17).

Concerning jihad,[SUP]14[/SUP] the Koran guarantees Paradise to those who fight for Allah (Sura 4:74). It promises instant Paradise for those who die in battle (Suras 9:111 and 47:5-6). Dying for Allah is presented as better than living: “And if you are killed or die in the Way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all that others may amass [of worldly wealth]” (Sura 3:157).

Martyrs are promised a sensual and luxurious life in Paradise (Sura 52:17-22). According to Al-Ghazzali, one of Islam’s greatest teachers, when a martyr reaches Paradise, he “will marry 500 companions, 4,000 virgins, and 8,000 divorced women.”[SUP]15[/SUP] Commenting on this statement, Randall Price, biblical teacher and Middle East expert, observed that the Islamic Paradise is “just the kind of place that adolescent, unmarried men, isolated through their lives from the opposite sex by rigid cultural standards, would die for.”[SUP]16[/SUP]
 
Oct 22, 2011
628
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18
#8
Islamic Sermons
The murderous imperialistic nature of Islam is clearly revealed in the sermons delivered weekly throughout the Muslim world. Consider the following excerpt from a sermon by Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi that was broadcast live over Palestinian television on June 8, 2001. Referring to a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv that had killed 21 Israeli teenagers the week before, he praised the terror­ists:[SUP]17[/SUP] “Blessings to whoever waged jihad for the sake of Allah. Blessings to whoever raided for the sake of Allah. Blessings to whoever put a belt of explosives on his body, or on his son’s body, and plunged into the midst of the Jews, crying, ‘Allahu Akbar!’ Praise to Allah!”

Then he expressed the imperialistic aims of Islam by issuing warnings to nations that would be “erased:” “Allah is almighty . . . We must prepare the ground for the army of Allah that is coming ac­cording to [divine] predestination. We must prepare a foothold for them. Allah is willing for this unjust state of Israel to be erased. The unjust state, the United States, will be erased. The unjust state, Britain, will be erased.”

A similar sermon was delivered the previous year on October 13, 2000, by Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya.[SUP]18[/SUP] It too was carried live on Palestinian television. He proclaimed that the true terrorists are the Jews “who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty has said.” He called for Muslims to have no mercy on the Jews: “Fight them wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them, . . . and kill those Americans who are like them — who stand by them.” As an incentive to carry out these murderous exhortations, the cleric added: “O brothers in belief, the beautiful bride has a costly price and dowry . . . Our bride is Paradise. O brothers in belief . . . the cost of the dowry of this bride . . . is that we fight in the path of Allah, and kill and be killed.”

Keep in mind that these are quotes from sermons! Can you imagine a Jewish rabbi or a Christian minister urging their congregations to go out and kill a Muslim for God?

Fundamentalist Goals

The Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran was the modern day Islamic spokesman who revived Muhammad’s vision of world con­quest. He taught that the re-establishment of Israel was a Satanic miracle allowed by Allah because of the lukewarmness of the Muslim masses. He called for a renewal of true Islam to accomplish three purposes:[SUP]19[/SUP]

To overthrow the “secular” rulers of Islamic countries (like Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and Egypt), just as he had done in Iran.

To take back the land of Palestine for Allah, exterminating Israel in the process.

To conquer the rest of the world for Allah.
Notice the first priority was the transformation of secular Islamic countries into religious states ruled by the Koran. Then would come Israel and the world.

In a proclamation made by Osama bin Laden in 1998, he listed the same goals and prioritized them in the same order.[SUP]20[/SUP] He then identified the United States as the prime obstacle to the achievement of these goals. Accordingly, he called on Muslims everywhere “to comply with Allah’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.”

It is important to note that the eradication of Israel is not the top priority. Nor is Israel viewed as the major obstacle to world conquest. I emphasize this because many Americans are saying that the key to winning the war against terrorism is to dump Israel. More and more, on radio talk shows, I hear people saying, “Let’s cut Israel loose. Let the Arabs have it. Then they will leave us alone.”

That is utter nonsense. Israel is not the cause of Islamic terrorism toward the West. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, Fundamentalist Islam would still be determined to destroy America as part of its plan to take the world for Allah. And if we were to abandon Israel, the Muslim world would interpret it as an act of cowardice, proving our word is meaningless and that we truly are, as they say, “a depraved society devoid of values.” Our abandonment of Israel would only whet their appetite. Islamic Fundamentalism cannot be appeased. It must be de­feated.

Answering Questions

I want to conclude by answering the questions we began with:

Are Muslims the spiritual brothers and sisters of Christians and Jews?
No, they have been deceived by a Satanic, false religion.

Do we all worship the same God?
Absolutely not. The god of Islam is a false god. He is really Satan in disguise.

Are the Islamic holy scriptures, known as the Koran, inspired by God?
Not the God of the Bible. The Islamic scrip­tures are a jumbled mess of contradictory statements that are unscientific, unhistorical, and unbiblical.

Is Islam another path to God by which one can obtain eternal life?
No! Muslims reject Jesus as Messiah and deny His atoning sacrifice. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6).

Are the Islamic Fundamentalists representative of true Islam, or have they hijacked a peace-loving religion?
There is no doubt they represent the true heart of Islam. Islam is a cultural, intolerant, militant and imperialistic religion of the sword.

Is our war really a political one against terrorism, or is it a spiritual one against a demonic religion known as Islam?
Based upon the evidence I have presented from the Koran and from history, I think the answer is obvious. We are not engaged in a war against terrorism. Terrorism is a means, not the source of the struggle. Terrorism is a tool of those waging the war. To say this is a war against terrorism is equivalent to saying World War II was a war against U-Boats, V2 Rockets and Kamikaze planes. No, World War II was a war against Fascism. The current war is one against Islamic Fundamentalism.

But even more substantive, it is a spiritual war against the forces of Satan.
Obstacles to the Gospel

Jesus is about to return. The Bible says He will not return until the Gospel is preached to all the world (Matthew 24:14). There have been two major obstacles to the preaching of the Gospel — Commu­nism and Islam, both religions of Satan. Communism collapsed and the former Communist countries are now open to the Gospel. The final barrier to be overcome is Islam.

For ten years now Evangelical Christians have been praying for the “10/40 Window” — that area of the world between the 10th and 40th latitudes where hundreds of millions are enslaved to the spiritual darkness of Islam.[SUP]21[/SUP] The prayers have been effective. Countless numbers have been exposed to the Gospel in various surreptitious ways, and many have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, knowing that to do so may well mean death.

Satan is enraged over these incursions into his territory. He is equally upset over the re-establishment of Israel. He can read the signs of the times, and he knows his time is short before Jesus breaks from the heavens in glory. But Satan is self-deceived, and he continues to believe he can thwart the purposes of God. He has therefore aroused and empowered Islam to make one last attempt to conquer the world.

Islam is destined to lose this battle, for the Word of God says that he who lives by the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52).

I believe Islam will ultimately experience another defeat so overwhelming and so humiliating that the eyes of millions of Muslims will be opened to the fact that Allah is a false god. At that point their hearts will be opened to the true God — a God of lovingkindness who came to this earth and died for the sins of Mankind.

Isaiah was given a vision of this day in Isaiah 19 where it was revealed to him that one day during the Millennial reign of Jesus, Egypt, Assyria, and Israel will all be united in worshiping the one and only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#9

the western world converted to Christianity in the 4th century AD; the (middle) eastern world never did. The Roman empire converted to Christ; the Parthian empire never did.
Looks like discussion with you is futile. You choose to ignore the issues I raised and instead chose to repeat the Scripturally bankrupt islamic propoganda you push. As you are led friend, as you are led! Just be careful who is doing the leading!
 
D

doulos

Guest
#10
The truth about Islam
Is that it is a satanically inspired spiritual kingdom of antichrists that the prophet John prophecied about approximately 500 years before muhammad was born. Islam was created by a satanically inspired illiterate 7[SUP]th[/SUP] century lying, child doing, thieving, murdering false prophet called mohammad. Islam sufferd a mortal wound during the first jihad unfortunately that wound has healed and islam is now waging jihad again in the image of the first. Islam will be defeated when Christ returns to throw muhammad and his followers(islam) in the lake of fire

Rev 13:1 - 3 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

false and fabricated things cannot hide the bright face of Islam.
False and fabricated things cannot sanitize the satanically inspired false religion of islam that teaches the exact opposite of the bible. Those who follow muhammads antichrist teachings will be doomed to the lake of fire if they do not repent and come to know the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

false allegations cannot hide the pious life of prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
Pious life? So according to you and islam one who is a lying, child doing, thieving, murderer (per the writings of islam) is pious? Since when? Would a pious man lead countless souls to perdition by teaching them to deny the only begotten Son of God? Would a pious man do satan’s bidding and teach the exact opposite of the Scriptures?

He (pbuh)never spoke a lie in his life time.
Parotting a lie over and over does not make it true. So mohammad actually did ride a flying donkey from Mecca to Jerusalem? So Abraham did commute to Mecca, despite the fact Mecca did not even exist at the time (Mecca never existed before 4[SUP]th[/SUP] centuryAD). Those who follow the satanically inspired lies of muhammad that teaches his followers to deny God has a Son(making them antichrists) will be doomed to the lake of fire if they do not leave islam, repent and place their faith in God’s only begotten Son.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He (pbuh)led a pious life even from his childhood.
Mohammad was was never pious, as a child he followed in his ancestor’s foot steps worshipping and participating in the pagan rituals of the sabians. The same thinly repackaged rituals you yourself as a follower of the false prophet mohammad’s satanically inspired religion of islam particpate in when you pray 5 times a day, perform ablution, etc…

Even his(pbuh)worst enemies admitted that.
Parroting a lie multiple times does not make it true. Isn’t it time you honestly evaluated the teachings you follow? Examine muhammads teachings (quran) and Jesus’ teachings (Scriptures) in light of historical, archeological, and geographic evidence to see if the quran is true. Why not start with Mecca? <click

Quran is the last message of God almighty given to him .
quran is nothing more then the satanically inspired writings that teach the exact opposite of the gospel. The quran is the 23 year record of a 7[SUP]th[/SUP] century illiterate, lying, murdering, child doing, thieving false prophet that stand in direct opposition to the 1600 year record of all God’s prophets and Christ.

sura 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Some Muslims claim that the bible was corrupted, but this would be going directly against the Quran, let alone an admission that Allah didn't know the bible would be corrupted before he prompted Muhammad to recite these verses.

Sura 48.29 ... This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

One of, if not the most quoted verse in the Gospel is:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But the Quran says in surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

In Jesus words from the gospel of Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

To the horror of those who understand the implications, Mohammed's followers led by the spirit of antichrist are filled with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve. That Jesus wasn't sacrificed on the cross to save all those from sin who have faith in His shed blood. If the Scriptures were corrupted before the 7th century and Christians and Jews are condemned, then how could Mohammed's "Allah" have indicated the following - in the future tense - regarding Christians and Jews?

Sura 2.62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (also 5.69)

Those "those who follow" not followed, "shall have" not are having, "shall be" no fear, all in the present or future tense to Mohammed.

Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
That was written during Mohammed's early Mecca days, so the books he referred to are necessarily the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians as they existed for hundreds of years before Mohammed.

Indeed Mohammed was to confirm and guard those Scriptures according to sura 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:...

But given sura 4:157 above, he wouldn't seem to have accomplished that.

...so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Do you trust God to show you the truth?
Allah instructs Muhammad's followers to believe in the scripture that came before Mohammed. How could a Muslim obey Allah's commandment to: "Believe in ... the scripture which He sent to those before (him)." if you haven't read those Scriptures? <click

Sura 5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

Why indeed.

Surah 2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

Are we to believe that God was in such a state of confusion that He had to annul and replace inspired verses in the Quran?

This LINK
<click to the Gospel is from the King James Version which is the most widely quoted and respected English version in Christianity. It is also the version from which Ahmed Deedat used to quote. Why not read a little and trust Allah to "show you the truth of the matters"?

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.

1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

May God bless you and guide us ALL in ALL truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Here is an audio King James Bible that you can listen to for free. http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html <click
You can listen with "Real Player".
Here is another audio version, (perhaps not quite as dynamic) but you can listen for free with Windows Media Player, and download in MP3. They mention they “have another KJV recording that is voice only (in MP3) and can be legally copied for ministry use." ("These disc can be copied and given to others! (non-commercial use)) http://www.audiotreasure.com/KJV/ <click
Here is an Arabic audio New Testament and a text Bible translated into Arabic, and much more. Arabic Bible Outreach Ministry - Home of The Arabic Bible <click
Here is an online King James Bible that you can perform searches in for terms like "Son of God". http://www.blueletterbible.org/ <click
Here is a bible with many versions, and Strong's definitions, and a Textus Receptus Greek interlinear are just a click away. http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm <click
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#11
Does Islam actually hold to the following as the Christian faith does?

  1. Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God
  2. Jesus Christ is God and Lord Himself
  3. Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross and shed His blood for our sins?
  4. Jesus Christ rose from the dead
If not, believe what you want, but let's not pretend the differences are minor.
you are over-stating (some of) those differences

  1. God incarnated into Jesus, (arguably) more so than any other Prophet, to the degree that the Messiah could say, that He and God were "one", i.e. united
  2. Jesus is no-where equated to God in heaven; Jesus = Lamb / Word of God never is associated, with the Throne of God, in Revelation
As for the Crucifixion + Resurrection, logically, Muslims could not claim, that Jesus was Resurrected, if Jesus was never Crucified (because some "substitute" stood in for Jesus, on the Cross). If what the Muslims say is actually true, then Christians are left looking stupid:

  1. Apostle Peter, arguably the over-all leader of the early Church (James was Bishop of Jerusalem, only), when (supposedly) Divinely Inspired by Holy Spirit, told the Jews that they had Crucified Jesus, and that God had Resurrected Jesus (Acts 4)
  2. Apostle Paul, explicitly preached "Christ Crucified" (1 Cor 1)
  3. Revelation (written by the "beloved" Apostle John) referred to Jerusalem "where their Lord [Jesus] was Crucified" (Rev 11)
If all of that is not true, then "God in heaven" Deceived through the Apostles themselves, and the Scriptures they wrote, and has left (predominantly gentile) Christians clinging to claims, which were always lies, for the past 2000 years.

Would "God in heaven" Deceive (gentile) Christians ? And, if Muslims say so, then why would they any-more believe "Allah in heaven" to tell them truth ?

In the Doctrinal dispute, between Christians vs. Muslims, the claims of the Koran require Christians to admit, that they have been deeply Deceived, for 2000 years -- "wait, wait, wait... you mean, Jesus was never actually crucified ? All that stuff about how he cared so much, so as to spill his blood, and 'take a bullet for me', was bogus this whole time ?" In-so-far as there is only One God of Deception = Satan, then Christians would have to admit, to having been duped & thralled, by Satan, for the past 2000 years.

Presumably, Christians would rather almost any other thing or event occur, than that they admit to such folly. The Communications, alleged to be from "God in heaven", to Christians (NT), and to Muslims (K), are not easily reconcilable; they seem to be "horoscopically bound" to cause each other conflict (on earth, not in heaven, if anybody notices).

[HR][/HR]
No competent police investigator, would have a hard time inferring, what most plausibly-and-probably happened, given the following (available) facts:
Jesus + Judas + 11 Apostles --> Jesus ("Resurrected") + 11 Apostles + body + empty tomb​
Personally, i perceive, that "everybody's eyes are all glowing... guys? ... guys?? ...".
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#12
you are over-stating (some of) those differences

  1. God incarnated into Jesus, (arguably) more so than any other Prophet, to the degree that the Messiah could say, that He and God were "one", i.e. united
  2. Jesus is no-where equated to God in heaven; Jesus = Lamb / Word of God never is associated, with the Throne of God, in Revelation
As for the Crucifixion + Resurrection, logically, Muslims could not claim, that Jesus was Resurrected, if Jesus was never Crucified (because some "substitute" stood in for Jesus, on the Cross). If what the Muslims say is actually true, then Christians are left looking stupid:

  1. Apostle Peter, arguably the over-all leader of the early Church (James was Bishop of Jerusalem, only), when (supposedly) Divinely Inspired by Holy Spirit, told the Jews that they had Crucified Jesus, and that God had Resurrected Jesus (Acts 4)
  2. Apostle Paul, explicitly preached "Christ Crucified" (1 Cor 1)
  3. Revelation (written by the "beloved" Apostle John) referred to Jerusalem "where their Lord [Jesus] was Crucified" (Rev 11)
If all of that is not true, then "God in heaven" Deceived through the Apostles themselves, and the Scriptures they wrote, and has left (predominantly gentile) Christians clinging to claims, which were always lies, for the past 2000 years.

Would "God in heaven" Deceive (gentile) Christians ? And, if Muslims say so, then why would they any-more believe "Allah in heaven" to tell them truth ?

In the Doctrinal dispute, between Christians vs. Muslims, the claims of the Koran require Christians to admit, that they have been deeply Deceived, for 2000 years -- "wait, wait, wait... you mean, Jesus was never actually crucified ? All that stuff about how he cared so much, so as to spill his blood, and 'take a bullet for me', was bogus this whole time ?" In-so-far as there is only One God of Deception = Satan, then Christians would have to admit, to having been duped & thralled, by Satan, for the past 2000 years.

Presumably, Christians would rather almost any other thing or event occur, than that they admit to such folly. The Communications, alleged to be from "God in heaven", to Christians (NT), and to Muslims (K), are not easily reconcilable; they seem to be "horoscopically bound" to cause each other conflict (on earth, not in heaven, if anybody notices).

[HR][/HR]
No competent police investigator, would have a hard time inferring, what most plausibly-and-probably happened, given the following (available) facts:
Jesus + Judas + 11 Apostles --> Jesus ("Resurrected") + 11 Apostles + body + empty tomb​
Personally, i perceive, that "everybody's eyes are all glowing... guys? ... guys?? ...".
To point
#1. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19)

#2 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
compare to
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa 44:6)
(there can't be two firsts and lasts.)

Of course Jesus was crucified as the apostolic martyrs all claimed as well as the OT prophecies. A 600 year after the event claim to the contrary is a bogus deception.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#13
i don't understand

The claim is, that "God in heaven" communicates messages, to earth-lings, "telepathically", i.e. straight thru their skulls. God's messages are perceived in their brains, and then they speak out those messages, which are then called "Prophesy". Prophets act like "interpreters", between two different parties, "translating" what God in heaven says, into earth-ling (as it were).

So, the famous phrase, "thus sayeth YHWH [LORD]", is God talking, through the brain-and-mouth of some Prophet. When a Prophet speaks such sounds, they are not claiming to be God, but claiming that God is talking through them.

[HR][/HR]separately, i perceive, that Muslims do not quite comprehend, how drastic of a difference, they are claiming, against Christianity. Every witness, to early Christianity, from no later than the 2nd century AD (and that only by being a minimalist), shows that early Christians preached "Christ Crucified". In 135 AD, after defeating the 2nd Jewish rebellion, emperor Hadrian converted the Cave of the Nativity, in Bethlehem, to a shrine for Adonis, a pagan dying-and-then-rising God, because (Jewish?) Christians were worshipping there. So, by 135 AD, Christians had been worshipping Jesus, as a dying-and-then-rising Messiah. The Nicene Crede, of the 4th century AD, affirms Christ "rose the third day".

Muslims are making an extreme claim -- that somewhere between Jesus... and His own Apostles, whose writings were passed to the early Church... an extreme error crept into Christianity... the "true" Christians, evidently somewhere near Arabia, "knew" that Jesus had not Himself been Crucified... whilst all the gentiles of the Greco-Roman world, were completely deceived.

the word "crucif*" only appears, in Paul's epistles. But 1 Pet 2 states:
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross
Muslims must make an extremely "conspiratorial" claim, to say that (say) Paul somehow mis-led everybody, and also 1 Pet 2 was forged or edited. i perceive, that Muslims do not recognize, what magnitude of extreme claim they are making, when they say "Christians don't know nothin', about the Crucifixion of Christ".


[HR][/HR]Facts, Logic, Reason would work well, in any star-system, anywhere in this universe. "13 men go in [to the Crucifixion event], 12 men + body come out" is no challenge, to interpret, from a common-sense perspective.

Tangentially relatedly, i would want Muslims, to put together a story, explaining by what means, the "truth" about the Crucifixion, somehow "bypassed" the whole of Christendom, and wound up in Arabia, for Muhammad to learn about? if i understand all the implications, then the claim is:


  • 1st-6th centuries AD -- no humans on earth knew the "truth" about the Crucifixion (evidence = NT + early Church traditions)
  • ~600 AD -- the Prophet Muhammad received Divine Revelation, telling him the "truth" about the Crucifixion

If so, then thousands of early Christians sacrificed themselves, to martyrdom, for a Deception (resulting in casualties on earth, none in heaven). If not, then Deception manifested thru Muhammad. Either way, Deception seems associated, with the "God of Abraham in heaven". Logically:

YHWH is a God of war (Exodus 15)
all war is deception (Sun Tzu)
-----------------------------------
YHWH, the God of Abraham, is a God of Deception

if i understand the implications, then nobody has been thinking logically, in 2000 years; and, since Scripture states, "there's nothing new under the sun" (Ecc 1:9), then nobody will think logically. i personally doubt, that humans on earth, have ever had, a "Friend in heavenly high places". But, that does not imply, that there is no Enemy.



To point
#1. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19)

#2 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
compare to
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa 44:6)
(there can't be two firsts and lasts.)

Of course Jesus was crucified as the apostolic martyrs all claimed as well as the OT prophecies. A 600 year after the event claim to the contrary is a bogus deception.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#14
You don't understand because...

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(1Co 2:6-16)

also

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
(Joh 3:10-12)


You must be born again.
 
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