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L
God hates divorce, but He also hates abuse. There are valid reasons for divorce other than infidelity. Another point worth mentioning is that not all marriage is of God. Men and woman do many things for many reasons, and many of those things and reasons are not OK with God, including many marriages. As a Christian, we have a higher responsibility and standard when it comes to marriage, and many don't know how powerful, special, important, and meaningful marriage is in and to God. Just like anything in the kingdom, this kind of knowledge needs to come by revelation, from the Father.
T
Easy to say. I notice you have no intelligent rebuttal, however. Simply stating that someone's argument "fails" is not a valid counter. If you have something of substance which actually provides evidence against the thesis, I would be happy to respond and/or concede.
(By the way, that is the educated, effective, honest, and polite way to say, "Fail.")
(By the way, that is the educated, effective, honest, and polite way to say, "Fail.")
T
I have to agree. Saying that something is okay just because it is "natural" is not necessarily true. Just because something occurs in nature does not automatically make it non-sinful. It just means that it is natural.
I think the point is, that the Bible has been proven wrong. The Bible says that homosexuality is unnatural, and we have proven that to be false. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that homosexuality is okay, or that divorce is okay, or that killing is okay, or that picking your nose is okay. It just means that when the Bible says "homosexuality is not natural" the Bible is incorrect, for whatever reason, because we know without a doubt that homosexuality DOES occur in nature, and by definition that means that it is natural.
So, we are left with two choices: either the Bible is wrong (a choice which I reject) or the Bible has been misinterpreted (a far better choice). If you look at the text, you find that Paul never really says HOMOSEXUALITY is unnatural. Paul says that a certain group of people, who HAD been naturally straight, gave up their natural attraction for the opposite gender, and became unnaturally interested in the same gender. Paul was referring to a specific group of people at a specific time in a specific place. He was not describing all gays for all time in all places. An honest reading of the passage in question shows that the homosexuality was actually a punishment sent upon a group of people because of their sin, that the sin was not the homosexuality itself, but that the sin was something else, and that because of that sin, God gave them up to unnatural lusts.
My interpretation above is somewhat radical. I will admit that. But the only other option is that Paul was just plain wrong. I'm not sure I'm willing to say that. If Paul is WRONG, that means you can't really trust him in ANYTHING he says, and you have to throw out all the letters in Scripture as being potentially wrong. I'm just not ready to make that move. Now, if y'all are so convinced that Paul is wrong, you can throw out Scripture. That's fine with me. I will support your right to worship as you see fit.
As a Biblical apologist, I just can't do that. I need to find a way to uphold Scripture, to make it fit with what I know to be true, rather than throw Scripture away just because I don't like what it says.
The choice is yours. Keep Scripture or toss it. Either way. Just be consistent about it, and don't claim to be "bible-based" if you toss it one on thing and then cling to it on something else. That's just hypocritical.
I think the point is, that the Bible has been proven wrong. The Bible says that homosexuality is unnatural, and we have proven that to be false. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that homosexuality is okay, or that divorce is okay, or that killing is okay, or that picking your nose is okay. It just means that when the Bible says "homosexuality is not natural" the Bible is incorrect, for whatever reason, because we know without a doubt that homosexuality DOES occur in nature, and by definition that means that it is natural.
So, we are left with two choices: either the Bible is wrong (a choice which I reject) or the Bible has been misinterpreted (a far better choice). If you look at the text, you find that Paul never really says HOMOSEXUALITY is unnatural. Paul says that a certain group of people, who HAD been naturally straight, gave up their natural attraction for the opposite gender, and became unnaturally interested in the same gender. Paul was referring to a specific group of people at a specific time in a specific place. He was not describing all gays for all time in all places. An honest reading of the passage in question shows that the homosexuality was actually a punishment sent upon a group of people because of their sin, that the sin was not the homosexuality itself, but that the sin was something else, and that because of that sin, God gave them up to unnatural lusts.
My interpretation above is somewhat radical. I will admit that. But the only other option is that Paul was just plain wrong. I'm not sure I'm willing to say that. If Paul is WRONG, that means you can't really trust him in ANYTHING he says, and you have to throw out all the letters in Scripture as being potentially wrong. I'm just not ready to make that move. Now, if y'all are so convinced that Paul is wrong, you can throw out Scripture. That's fine with me. I will support your right to worship as you see fit.
As a Biblical apologist, I just can't do that. I need to find a way to uphold Scripture, to make it fit with what I know to be true, rather than throw Scripture away just because I don't like what it says.
The choice is yours. Keep Scripture or toss it. Either way. Just be consistent about it, and don't claim to be "bible-based" if you toss it one on thing and then cling to it on something else. That's just hypocritical.
M
It's curious to me that folks see the homosexuality as being the primary consequence in that passage. They burned with lust, for instance. It's not just that they were attracted to the same sex. Moreover:
I wonder how many people who disobeyed their parents thought this passage was as clear a condemnation of them. Or even gossips! But no, the passage is somehow about the gays.
I wonder how many people who disobeyed their parents thought this passage was as clear a condemnation of them. Or even gossips! But no, the passage is somehow about the gays.
Which is often overlooked. While there should be no denial that practised homosexuality is sin, one also need to look at the wider picture of the scriptures that could refer to Rom.1:18-32.
As seen one major issue with the sodomites was their refusal to help their poor and needy, even when they did have the means and possibility to do so.
Paul and John on the ways of the gentiles, or "the world":
Yet the very fact that homosexuality is mentioned as a sign of reprobation doesn't precisely speak in favor of a possible "positive" view on it.
As seen one major issue with the sodomites was their refusal to help their poor and needy, even when they did have the means and possibility to do so.
Paul and John on the ways of the gentiles, or "the world":
Yet the very fact that homosexuality is mentioned as a sign of reprobation doesn't precisely speak in favor of a possible "positive" view on it.
C
All creation cries out for His return, all are under the curse, whats natural then? Do we look to a fallen world for our morals, to the animals for our morals or do we look and believe the Word of God when He says something is not natural -
For it pertains to His original design when God speaks of whats natural.
Serpent seed sowers cast seeds to cast doubt to justify lifestyles that are against His Word.
For it pertains to His original design when God speaks of whats natural.
Serpent seed sowers cast seeds to cast doubt to justify lifestyles that are against His Word.
S
What I find the most curious is how many people think they have the right to pass judgement on someone with a different sexual preference. Do I think that homosexuality is wrong and against God's word, yes I do. However, God also gave us free will. He gave his only son to die for our sins. Time and time again in his word he has spoken against gossip and deceit and backbiting. Is it not possible that through God's amazing grace we can love the sinner and not the sin? God tells us that one day we will all account for the things we have done in our life. HE is the judge, and I would prefer that he remain the judge. He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone. But just remember, to God a sin is a sin is a sin. So hate is no less a sin then homosexuality. Taking the Lord's name in vain is the same as homosexuality. Are you starting to get the picture? Trust in God, he will handle the sinners without our help.
I wasnt able to read all of this thread, so if I have repeated another, Im sorry.
I saw, even though many dissagree about how to speak to divorce or homosexuality, most have agreed that these things go against God, are sin.
I m not looking to debate these issues, as sin is sin, and we all have sinned.
But the one issue that I see often overlooked is that some want to find a way to justify divorce, homosexuality or other sins that the world gives approval too.
I know there were times in my life I wanted Jesus to give me some kind of understanding and a pass on some sins that were not really wrong, and I wanted to find some way to approve because the world did.
I know I would not want another to judge me in these things, simply because they didnt know my heart or reason.
But useing an excuse or reason is not what we can look to.
You see, every person has to see that if they are in Jesus, you cannot look to any reason, excuse or approval from another or the world, because the sin debated is not with man, but God .
My heart hurts for those that struggle with divorce or homosexuality, but if one approves them in their act, one condemns them as much, as to judge them wrong and condemn them.
I guess what Im trying to say, is the debate is not with man, but God, for He has put before us what is sin, or not sin, so we may have a standard to live by.
One is called not to condemn or judge the person, but to witness to what is sin, judgeing the act, so to spare another from sinning, or falling away.
But we also have Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh, who's grace given, is our salvation through faith.
We can never aprove sin, we must witess to what we are called to in Jesus, and sin, we are called to set aside, to repent.
But, we are also called to love and serve all in Jesus , even those who sin, because this is what Jesus has done for us.
in Jesus, God bless
pickles
I saw, even though many dissagree about how to speak to divorce or homosexuality, most have agreed that these things go against God, are sin.
I m not looking to debate these issues, as sin is sin, and we all have sinned.
But the one issue that I see often overlooked is that some want to find a way to justify divorce, homosexuality or other sins that the world gives approval too.
I know there were times in my life I wanted Jesus to give me some kind of understanding and a pass on some sins that were not really wrong, and I wanted to find some way to approve because the world did.
I know I would not want another to judge me in these things, simply because they didnt know my heart or reason.
But useing an excuse or reason is not what we can look to.
You see, every person has to see that if they are in Jesus, you cannot look to any reason, excuse or approval from another or the world, because the sin debated is not with man, but God .
My heart hurts for those that struggle with divorce or homosexuality, but if one approves them in their act, one condemns them as much, as to judge them wrong and condemn them.
I guess what Im trying to say, is the debate is not with man, but God, for He has put before us what is sin, or not sin, so we may have a standard to live by.
One is called not to condemn or judge the person, but to witness to what is sin, judgeing the act, so to spare another from sinning, or falling away.
But we also have Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh, who's grace given, is our salvation through faith.
We can never aprove sin, we must witess to what we are called to in Jesus, and sin, we are called to set aside, to repent.
But, we are also called to love and serve all in Jesus , even those who sin, because this is what Jesus has done for us.
in Jesus, God bless
pickles