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Greetings JessP,
God is the One who is does the saving and it is those whom he chose from before the world began who he foreknew and who he predestined, then at the right time he calls them, justifies and glorifies them. It is God who justifies the wicked. Now, the common rejection to this is, "that's not fair!" And they would be correct if everyone was entitled to salvation, but the fact is that no one, not even the saved are entitled to salvation. Though people don't like to hear this, it is by God's sovereign choice that people are saved. Salvation is not a free-for-all. It is not left up to us. I've used this example before, if a man is out on the street corner and there are twenty people around him and he is giving out twenty dollar bills, but only to five out of the twenty of whom he choses, is he being unfair to the other fifteen? Some would probably say yes, but the fact is, its his money and he can give to whomever he wants and that because none of them is entitled to that money, not even the one's that he is giving it to, but he choses to give it to those five. That being said, no one is entitled to salvation, but God is giving it whom he chose and that before the world began and the other people that he doesn't are still guilty of sin.
Scripture demonstrates this truth when is says that, before either of the twins were born (Jacob and Esau) and before they had done anything either good or bad, God said Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. God also demonstrates this when he said regarding Pharaoh, "I raised you up for this very purpose to demonstrate my power to the nations." Again scripture says regarding God, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have compassion." It therefore does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Revelation demonstrates that God wrote the names of those whom he was going to save in the book of life before the world even began and he did not write the names in his book of those he was not going to save as can be seen from the following scripture:
"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."
The verse above demonstrates that there were names that were not written in the book of life and that it was from the creation of the world that these names were not written, which would also infer that those whose names that were written was done so at the same time. Also, it is not that God gave everyone the opportunity throughout every generation to receive salvation by looking ahead into future based on everyone's decision, but that it was by God's sovereign choice of those whom he determined to save throughout every generation and that before the world began. In other words, salvation is not left up to man's decision, but by God's election. I would also add another scripture, "no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him." This scripture would also demonstrate election on God the Father's part. Consider the following as well:
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."
Therefore, it is not a matter of what family a person is born into or anything else, but salvation rests upon God who elected those who were to be saved before the world began.
God is the One who is does the saving and it is those whom he chose from before the world began who he foreknew and who he predestined, then at the right time he calls them, justifies and glorifies them. It is God who justifies the wicked. Now, the common rejection to this is, "that's not fair!" And they would be correct if everyone was entitled to salvation, but the fact is that no one, not even the saved are entitled to salvation. Though people don't like to hear this, it is by God's sovereign choice that people are saved. Salvation is not a free-for-all. It is not left up to us. I've used this example before, if a man is out on the street corner and there are twenty people around him and he is giving out twenty dollar bills, but only to five out of the twenty of whom he choses, is he being unfair to the other fifteen? Some would probably say yes, but the fact is, its his money and he can give to whomever he wants and that because none of them is entitled to that money, not even the one's that he is giving it to, but he choses to give it to those five. That being said, no one is entitled to salvation, but God is giving it whom he chose and that before the world began and the other people that he doesn't are still guilty of sin.
Scripture demonstrates this truth when is says that, before either of the twins were born (Jacob and Esau) and before they had done anything either good or bad, God said Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. God also demonstrates this when he said regarding Pharaoh, "I raised you up for this very purpose to demonstrate my power to the nations." Again scripture says regarding God, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have compassion." It therefore does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Revelation demonstrates that God wrote the names of those whom he was going to save in the book of life before the world even began and he did not write the names in his book of those he was not going to save as can be seen from the following scripture:
"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."
The verse above demonstrates that there were names that were not written in the book of life and that it was from the creation of the world that these names were not written, which would also infer that those whose names that were written was done so at the same time. Also, it is not that God gave everyone the opportunity throughout every generation to receive salvation by looking ahead into future based on everyone's decision, but that it was by God's sovereign choice of those whom he determined to save throughout every generation and that before the world began. In other words, salvation is not left up to man's decision, but by God's election. I would also add another scripture, "no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him." This scripture would also demonstrate election on God the Father's part. Consider the following as well:
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."
Therefore, it is not a matter of what family a person is born into or anything else, but salvation rests upon God who elected those who were to be saved before the world began.
K
Absolutely.
Ok, this is going to get really deep. Read further only if you're willing to ponder really deep thoughts. Grab a cup of coffee, and a cozy nook...
We will be judged according to the bible and according to our own abilities and effort (which will only reveal what's already there, in our soul). I even believe that God knows the soul of an unborn baby, and whether that soul would have chosen to obey God or not, whether or not they are given the opportunity. So if Hitler died before he was born, I don't believe he would inherit eternal life, yet with Moses in the same situation, I believe he would. It's like this, a pumpkin seed does not have to go through the life of turning into a pumpkin for you to know what it will produce if you planted it.
Why do some souls get to live this life and some don't? Just like spreading pumpkin seeds, not all seeds land on the soil and are able to take root. But the bible says they are better off- "Blessed is he who has not even been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun." So if even those not born will be judged, according to the seed of who they are (soul), everyone in between will as well- the mentally handicapped, and those with the most brilliant minds. And every single soul will fail to pass inspection. So the only thing will be whether or not a soul has it in them to obey God. God knows the core of every soul, and His judgment will apply to absolutely everyone.
If you tilt a table on a slant, and put a marble on it, you know it will roll off whether or not you even test to see if it will roll off. If you put a spoonful of peanut butter on the same table, you know that it will stick and not roll off. But even though a farmer knows which seeds will produce what, he still has to plant his fields. God's garden is this world, and we are the seeds He planted. He will allow the wheat (righteous people) to grow along with the weeds (unrighteous people) until the harvest (end of this world), then He will separate the weeds from the wheat and burn them in the fire (hell), and put the wheat in His barn (heaven).
If you squeeze and orange, you will get sweet orange juice. If you squeeze a lemon you will get sour lemon juice. It is not until we are under pressure that who we really are is revealed, but God already knows. But the most amazing thing is, is that God can change a lemon into an orange! And if this is possible, the potential was already there (you had the kind of soul that can obey God). Because the truth is we are all lemons, but God can bring the orange out if our soul possess that seed in its core of cores.
Ok, this is going to get really deep. Read further only if you're willing to ponder really deep thoughts. Grab a cup of coffee, and a cozy nook...
We will be judged according to the bible and according to our own abilities and effort (which will only reveal what's already there, in our soul). I even believe that God knows the soul of an unborn baby, and whether that soul would have chosen to obey God or not, whether or not they are given the opportunity. So if Hitler died before he was born, I don't believe he would inherit eternal life, yet with Moses in the same situation, I believe he would. It's like this, a pumpkin seed does not have to go through the life of turning into a pumpkin for you to know what it will produce if you planted it.
Why do some souls get to live this life and some don't? Just like spreading pumpkin seeds, not all seeds land on the soil and are able to take root. But the bible says they are better off- "Blessed is he who has not even been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun." So if even those not born will be judged, according to the seed of who they are (soul), everyone in between will as well- the mentally handicapped, and those with the most brilliant minds. And every single soul will fail to pass inspection. So the only thing will be whether or not a soul has it in them to obey God. God knows the core of every soul, and His judgment will apply to absolutely everyone.
If you tilt a table on a slant, and put a marble on it, you know it will roll off whether or not you even test to see if it will roll off. If you put a spoonful of peanut butter on the same table, you know that it will stick and not roll off. But even though a farmer knows which seeds will produce what, he still has to plant his fields. God's garden is this world, and we are the seeds He planted. He will allow the wheat (righteous people) to grow along with the weeds (unrighteous people) until the harvest (end of this world), then He will separate the weeds from the wheat and burn them in the fire (hell), and put the wheat in His barn (heaven).
If you squeeze and orange, you will get sweet orange juice. If you squeeze a lemon you will get sour lemon juice. It is not until we are under pressure that who we really are is revealed, but God already knows. But the most amazing thing is, is that God can change a lemon into an orange! And if this is possible, the potential was already there (you had the kind of soul that can obey God). Because the truth is we are all lemons, but God can bring the orange out if our soul possess that seed in its core of cores.
for example.
when, did we all have the same intellect ,when, were we all given the same upbringing , the same education. the same opportunities.
they also go deeper with common sense. thats the wonderful thing about god, he used many different people in the bible, with different intellect, different upbringing, and different education. telling all walks of life there is a god.
is the topic a trick question, or just a bad worded ie could have written the words different.( the starter of the topic,)
when, did we all have the same intellect ,when, were we all given the same upbringing , the same education. the same opportunities.
they also go deeper with common sense. thats the wonderful thing about god, he used many different people in the bible, with different intellect, different upbringing, and different education. telling all walks of life there is a god.
is the topic a trick question, or just a bad worded ie could have written the words different.( the starter of the topic,)
J
These are all fantastic answers.
I think that there are some valid points around the definition of what we mean by Equal opportunities and the idea of fairness.
So could the idea of justice and how people could be judged be based on what opportunities they had. For example a remote tribe that had never heard of Christianity or come into contact with the 'modern world' they have less opportunity to become christian. Therefore would God judge them accordingly.
Could the same idea apply to someone who maybe was exposed to the concepts of Christianity but never believed them, not because they were rejecting them. But they could not make themselves truly accept them. Even if they tried really hard. Would God judge accordingly?
Or do Christians just accept the fact that not everyone does have same chance. - I wonder how it is decided who is raised in situations conducive to Christianity and who is to be raised in the opposite.
I think that there are some valid points around the definition of what we mean by Equal opportunities and the idea of fairness.
So could the idea of justice and how people could be judged be based on what opportunities they had. For example a remote tribe that had never heard of Christianity or come into contact with the 'modern world' they have less opportunity to become christian. Therefore would God judge them accordingly.
Could the same idea apply to someone who maybe was exposed to the concepts of Christianity but never believed them, not because they were rejecting them. But they could not make themselves truly accept them. Even if they tried really hard. Would God judge accordingly?
Or do Christians just accept the fact that not everyone does have same chance. - I wonder how it is decided who is raised in situations conducive to Christianity and who is to be raised in the opposite.
M
The following verses suggest everyone has an opportunity to be aware of
God. All down the ages mankind has made its own gods. No matter what
country and no matter how remote, mankind has created some form of
god to worship and bow down to.
Similarly mankind has also turned to devil worship, evil, the occult, witch craft.
God's finger prints are on the inside of us. It is an inescapable truth that mankind
has a spiritual part of them which needs to be filled with something. Hopefully that
will be the Holy Spirit but people being people, they are only too eager to find an
alternative if the creator God does not appeal to them.
Speaking of which has anyone noticed the huge increase in supernatural and occult
programmes on TV over the last 10 years. It's strange how many people will eagerly
tune into these programmes but quickly skim past Godly programmes.
Romans 1:19-22 AMP
[19] For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain
in their inner consciousness, because God Himself has shown it to them.
[20] For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes,
that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly
discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks).
So men are without excuse altogether without any defense or justification,
[21] Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor
and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and
godless in their thinking with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid
speculations and their senseless minds were darkened. [22] Claiming to be wise,
they became fools professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves.
God. All down the ages mankind has made its own gods. No matter what
country and no matter how remote, mankind has created some form of
god to worship and bow down to.
Similarly mankind has also turned to devil worship, evil, the occult, witch craft.
God's finger prints are on the inside of us. It is an inescapable truth that mankind
has a spiritual part of them which needs to be filled with something. Hopefully that
will be the Holy Spirit but people being people, they are only too eager to find an
alternative if the creator God does not appeal to them.
Speaking of which has anyone noticed the huge increase in supernatural and occult
programmes on TV over the last 10 years. It's strange how many people will eagerly
tune into these programmes but quickly skim past Godly programmes.
Romans 1:19-22 AMP
[19] For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain
in their inner consciousness, because God Himself has shown it to them.
[20] For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes,
that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly
discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks).
So men are without excuse altogether without any defense or justification,
[21] Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor
and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and
godless in their thinking with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid
speculations and their senseless minds were darkened. [22] Claiming to be wise,
they became fools professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves.
Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. (15) They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. (15) They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them