everything is predestined?

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selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
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Can you demonstrate from the preceding and subsequent context that Jesus is speaking about all the church and not just the apostles in John 15:16?.
Hi, Paul. Yes, I can. The whole chapter speaks to His believers in Christ. Notice the promises within the chapter. They are for you and me and every Christian.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete. "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another. "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it hated you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. Because you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world—therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It was to fulfill the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.' "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning.

- John 15 (NRSV)
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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Hi, Paul. Yes, I can. The whole chapter speaks to His believers in Christ. Notice the promises within the chapter. They are for you and me and every Christian.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete. "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another. "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it hated you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. Because you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world—therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It was to fulfill the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.' "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning.

Jesus has just left the last supper with his eleven disciples on His way to the Garden of Gethsemane. So, contextually, he was speaking only to His eleven disciples that He chose near the beginning of His ministry. That's who the "you" are in John 15. The context does not include anyone else.

- John 15 (NRSV)
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
1,276
164
63
Hi, Paul. Yes, I can. The whole chapter speaks to His believers in Christ. Notice the promises within the chapter. They are for you and me and every Christian.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete. "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another. "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it hated you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. Because you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world—therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It was to fulfill the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.' "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning.

- John 15 (NRSV)

Jesus has just left the last supper with his eleven disciples on His way to the Garden of Gethsemane. So, contextually, he was speaking only to His eleven disciples that He chose near the beginning of His ministry. That's who the "you" are in John 15. The context does not include anyone else.


"Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' Jesus said that to the twelve, not to you and me.

"You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning." The twelve had been with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry. Were you and I?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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This senseless argument has been going on for CENTURIES in the church ... It's not about salvation but about being the church.

... the gospel is for every creature
If the gospel is for every creature, why do you think he would not pray for every creature (John 17:9).
I think people can repent of wrongdoing and many do make attempts to be better people, but cannot accept the Biblical God, and that is the crux of the matter, for those attempts devoid of faith are as filthy rags. If you do a search of this page for Acts 17:30, you will see that twenty-eight (28) versions on the main page say everywhere (there may be more usages in additional translations). Heh, another says every where. And it is paired with some form of all men, such as all people, everyone, etc. KJV also says And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Just my thoughts. Why would God command anyone to repent, knowing that they cannot receive, nor understand his laws?

I agree with you that God's elect people is the church comprised of people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. I believe that Jacob, whom God changed his name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. represents all of God's elect

Most of Jacob/Israel turned away from God and began to worship idols, and because of their disobedience, God blinded their eyes to see, understand the gospel of Christ, except for the remnant that he left in the mist of them that shall do no iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth; for they shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid. (Zeph 3).

Both Jacob/Israel and the remnant will be saved (Rom 11:26-32). I believe the scriptures teach that there is an "invisible" (my own word) church of God/kingdom of God, comprised of Jacob/Israel of whom God blinded their understanding, and there is a "visible" (my own word) that God has revealed the truth of the doctrine that Christ taught which is comprised of the remnant of Jacob/Israel (Ezk 10, especially verse 10). The larger wheel, being Jacob/Israel, and the smaller wheel, being the remnant of Jacob/Israel. (Rom 11:1-8).

I believe the two gates in Matt 7 harmonize with this truth. The wide gate representing Jacob/Israel, the larger outer wheel, who are blinded to understand the doctrine of Jesus, and are going about teaching many false doctrines, which leads to destruction of the truth of God's word.

The strait gate representing the remnant of Jacob/Israel, the smaller inner wheel, of whom God has revealed a knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus. They are the few that find it and the narrow way (Christ's doctrine) that leads to a peaceful (none shall make them afraid) and joyful life as they sojourn here on earth.

I realize that this is a hard doctrine to understand, as it was for Jesus's disciples when they heard it (John 6:60).

The inspired word of God was written as instruction to how God wants his adopted children to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. As long as they follow his instructions, they are in fellowship with him. His adopted children's trouble is because of the baggage of their fleshly nature, they are, at times, tempted, by Satan, and commit a sin, in doing so, they die=separate themselves from God's fellowship,(not their eternal inheritance), temporary, until they repent, because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his only begotten Son as he bore the sins of God's elect.

Saved=delivered, according to Strong's concordance. Each time that one of God's adopted children repents of a sin that they have committed, and God forgives them, they have been saved (delivered) from the effects of that sin.

I perceive that you are an intelligent person, and my hope is that you will investigate the things I have presented to you that I believe in.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
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Jesus has just left the last supper with his eleven disciples on His way to the Garden of Gethsemane. So, contextually, he was speaking only to His eleven disciples that He chose near the beginning of His ministry. That's who the "you" are in John 15. The context does not include anyone else.


"Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' Jesus said that to the twelve, not to you and me.

"You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning." The twelve had been with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry. Were you and I?
… but who was there at the very beginning—before the foundation of the world?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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I tend to believe everything happens because it suppose to happen. What are your guys thoughts on that?
No. People are often confused about this because the final outcome is FOREKNOWN by God. All men have a choice when it comes to their individual salvation. God knows that the wicked shall reject Him. Not complicated at all, really.

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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I agree that God is not a liar and he wants no one to perish. And I agree Satan is a deceiver and he weasels his way into all of Gods goodness and purity.
I also believe Jesus agreed to be a sacrifice before the foundation of the world because the father needed a fix and Jesus volunteered! Praise the Lamb of God ..Holy is the lamb
Yes, they do not get that God can not predestine peoples choices and give the same men free will. But He can predestine a sacrifice that gives life unto all who freely receive that gift.