Fair of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Mediator

New member
Jun 28, 2021
10
10
3
#1
Looking for Christmas friends,can we chat
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
770
113
#3
We Protestants vehemently rebelled against the celebration of the birth of Christ, Christmas. Christmas is a Catholic invention and should not be celebrated!!!!!!!!!!!! Christmas is a Catholic/Popish invention. In the past, Protestants have declared Christmas to be illegal.

How did the first settlers celebrate Christmas? They didn't. The Pilgrims who came to America in 1620 were strict Puritans, with firm views on religious holidays such as Christmas and Easter. Scripture did not name any holiday except the Sabbath, they argued, and the very concept of "holy days" implied that some days were not holy. "They for whom all days are holy can have no holiday," was a common Puritan maxim. Puritans were particularly contemptuous of Christmas, nicknaming it "Foolstide" and banning their flock from any celebration of it throughout the 17th and 18th centuries. On the first Dec. 25 the settlers spent in Plymouth Colony, they worked in the fields as they would on any other day. The next year, a group of non-Puritan workmen caught celebrating Christmas with a game of "stoole-ball" — an early precursor of baseball — were punished by Gov. William Bradford. "My conscience cannot let you play during this pagan holiday. When did that view win out? Puritans in the English Parliament eliminated Christmas as a national holiday in 1645, amid widespread anti-Christmas sentiment. Settlers in New England went even further, outlawing Christmas celebrations entirely in 1659. Anyone caught shirking their work duties or feasting was forced to pay a significant penalty of five shillings. Christmas returned to England in 1660, but in New England it remained banned until the 1680s, when the Crown managed to exert greater control over its subjects in Massachusetts. In 1686, the royal governor of the colony, Sir Edmund Andros, sponsored a Christmas Day service at the Boston Town House. Fearing a violent backlash from Puritan settlers, Andros was flanked by redcoats as he prayed and sang Christmas hymns.

Seventh Day Adventists call Christmas a pagan ritual, an unholy day not to be celebrated. In fact a number of states of the USA declared Christmas an illegal celebration. In fact Christmas has been banned by us Protestants in many places.

The story begins in England, just before Puritan leader Oliver Cromwell came to power. After crushing royalist uprisings throughout England, Wales and Scotland in the English Civil Wars and overseeing the trial and execution of King Charles I, Cromwell declared himself Lord Protector of the Realm in 1653. He ruled for a brief five years, but during that time did what he could to do away with "papist" elements, implementing his Puritan reforms with zeal.
Among those reforms included the banning of Christmas festivities. Fiercely Calvinist Scotland had already banned Christmas since the 1560s, and now with the king deposed in neighboring England and Parliament full of Puritan sympathizers, the English government also set about to do the same.
The war was not so much against Christmas as it was against Catholicism; one of the distinctive marks of the Catholic faith is the celebration of feast days — days marked for special celebration in the Catholic liturgical calendar. Solemnities, first-class feasts, octaves — to Puritans, all of this was so much nonsense, nothing more than "popish" celebrations with no scriptural foundation. A common Puritan maxim went: "They for whom all days are holy can have no holiday."

Christmas in particular was especially "Catholic," the season opening with Christmas Day, a public holiday, when shops and businesses closed and the faithful attended "Christ's Mass," followed by festivities lasting throughout the Twelve Days of Christmas. In contrast to the penitential season of Advent, Christmas was marked by eating and drinking in greater quantities, with special foods like turkey, beef, mince pies, plum porridge and specially brewed Christmas ale. Dancing, singing, games and plays also took place, as well as the exchange of gifts.
It was English recusants — Catholics who clung stubbornly to the Faith of old and refused to bow to the novelties of state-imposed Anglicanism — who celebrated Christmas with gusto. They were the target of special hatred by the Puritans, who demanded a stricter and more austere observance of the Lord's Day, not just on Christmas, but also on Easter and other holy days. With their somber theology, Puritans also took a dim view of the merrymaking, deeming it excessive and sinful.
King Charles II
In the 1640s, the Long Parliament set about abolishing Christmas. The ban was made official in 1647, making the celebration of not only Christmas but also Easter and Whitsun (Pentecost Sunday) a punishable offense. Dancing, plays and especially drinking were prohibited, as were any signs of special celebration, and shops were forced to remain open on Christmas Day. Cromwell's ascendancy as Lord Protector only cemented the law. England would have to wait until 1660, with the restoration of the monarchy under King Charles II — who converted to the Catholic faith on his deathbed — for Christmas to be restored as a holiday.
In the New World, colonials in Boston followed their Puritan counterparts in England by shunning the feast honoring Our Lord's Nativity. The Pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower worked in the fields through December 25, and the city of Boston — a Puritan stronghold — banned Christmas from 1659 to 1681.
Those caught taking time off to make merry on December 25 were forced to pay a penalty of five shillings — a lot of money at the time. Although Christmas was made legal in England in 1660, the Crown was unable to exercise influence over its American subjects on the matter until the 1680s, when modest Christmas celebrations were once again permitted in Boston. In 1686, a public Christmas Day service was held at the Boston Town House. Sir Edmund Andros, who sponsored the event, feared violence from Puritan locals, and attended the event flanked by redcoats to guard him while he sang Christmas carols.
Anti-Christmas hostility wouldn't cease entirely for centuries, flaring up in Puritan pockets of colonial America here and there. During the American Revolution, Christmas often came to be associated with royalist sympathizers (comprised largely of High-Church Anglicans and Catholics). Even after ratification of the U.S. Constitution, the Senate and House continued to assemble on Christmas Day, treating it not as a holiday but as a regular work day, and as late as 1850, businesses and schools in New England worked through December 25.
Helped by the success of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, published to much acclaim in 1843 and which presented a cheerful tale of the holiday, Americans' perceptions of Christmas slowly began to change. It wouldn't be until 1870 that Ulysses S. Grant declared Christmas a federal holiday, ensuring the legal celebration of Our Lord's birth in every state. Since that time, the holiday has been celebrated as many Protestant Americans' favorite time of year, the old hostility fading from national memory — but it remains the case that once upon a time, this nation's Protestant forebears sought to do away with Christmas — actions that ultimately found their source in an animus against the Catholic faith.

It is an historical fact that we Protestants were as much against the celebration of Christmas as we were against the Pope and the Catholic Church.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
770
113
#4
We Protestants vehemently rebelled against the celebration of the birth of Christ, Christmas. Christmas is a Catholic invention and should not be celebrated!!!!!!!!!!!! Christmas is a Catholic/Popish invention. In the past, Protestants have declared Christmas to be illegal.

How did the first settlers celebrate Christmas? They didn't. The Pilgrims who came to America in 1620 were strict Puritans, with firm views on religious holidays such as Christmas and Easter. Scripture did not name any holiday except the Sabbath, they argued, and the very concept of "holy days" implied that some days were not holy. "They for whom all days are holy can have no holiday," was a common Puritan maxim. Puritans were particularly contemptuous of Christmas, nicknaming it "Foolstide" and banning their flock from any celebration of it throughout the 17th and 18th centuries. On the first Dec. 25 the settlers spent in Plymouth Colony, they worked in the fields as they would on any other day. The next year, a group of non-Puritan workmen caught celebrating Christmas with a game of "stoole-ball" — an early precursor of baseball — were punished by Gov. William Bradford. "My conscience cannot let you play during this pagan holiday. When did that view win out? Puritans in the English Parliament eliminated Christmas as a national holiday in 1645, amid widespread anti-Christmas sentiment. Settlers in New England went even further, outlawing Christmas celebrations entirely in 1659. Anyone caught shirking their work duties or feasting was forced to pay a significant penalty of five shillings. Christmas returned to England in 1660, but in New England it remained banned until the 1680s, when the Crown managed to exert greater control over its subjects in Massachusetts. In 1686, the royal governor of the colony, Sir Edmund Andros, sponsored a Christmas Day service at the Boston Town House. Fearing a violent backlash from Puritan settlers, Andros was flanked by redcoats as he prayed and sang Christmas hymns.

Seventh Day Adventists call Christmas a pagan ritual, an unholy day not to be celebrated. In fact a number of states of the USA declared Christmas an illegal celebration. In fact Christmas has been banned by us Protestants in many places.

The story begins in England, just before Puritan leader Oliver Cromwell came to power. After crushing royalist uprisings throughout England, Wales and Scotland in the English Civil Wars and overseeing the trial and execution of King Charles I, Cromwell declared himself Lord Protector of the Realm in 1653. He ruled for a brief five years, but during that time did what he could to do away with "papist" elements, implementing his Puritan reforms with zeal.
Among those reforms included the banning of Christmas festivities. Fiercely Calvinist Scotland had already banned Christmas since the 1560s, and now with the king deposed in neighboring England and Parliament full of Puritan sympathizers, the English government also set about to do the same.
The war was not so much against Christmas as it was against Catholicism; one of the distinctive marks of the Catholic faith is the celebration of feast days — days marked for special celebration in the Catholic liturgical calendar. Solemnities, first-class feasts, octaves — to Puritans, all of this was so much nonsense, nothing more than "popish" celebrations with no scriptural foundation. A common Puritan maxim went: "They for whom all days are holy can have no holiday."

Christmas in particular was especially "Catholic," the season opening with Christmas Day, a public holiday, when shops and businesses closed and the faithful attended "Christ's Mass," followed by festivities lasting throughout the Twelve Days of Christmas. In contrast to the penitential season of Advent, Christmas was marked by eating and drinking in greater quantities, with special foods like turkey, beef, mince pies, plum porridge and specially brewed Christmas ale. Dancing, singing, games and plays also took place, as well as the exchange of gifts.
It was English recusants — Catholics who clung stubbornly to the Faith of old and refused to bow to the novelties of state-imposed Anglicanism — who celebrated Christmas with gusto. They were the target of special hatred by the Puritans, who demanded a stricter and more austere observance of the Lord's Day, not just on Christmas, but also on Easter and other holy days. With their somber theology, Puritans also took a dim view of the merrymaking, deeming it excessive and sinful.
King Charles II
In the 1640s, the Long Parliament set about abolishing Christmas. The ban was made official in 1647, making the celebration of not only Christmas but also Easter and Whitsun (Pentecost Sunday) a punishable offense. Dancing, plays and especially drinking were prohibited, as were any signs of special celebration, and shops were forced to remain open on Christmas Day. Cromwell's ascendancy as Lord Protector only cemented the law. England would have to wait until 1660, with the restoration of the monarchy under King Charles II — who converted to the Catholic faith on his deathbed — for Christmas to be restored as a holiday.
In the New World, colonials in Boston followed their Puritan counterparts in England by shunning the feast honoring Our Lord's Nativity. The Pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower worked in the fields through December 25, and the city of Boston — a Puritan stronghold — banned Christmas from 1659 to 1681.
Those caught taking time off to make merry on December 25 were forced to pay a penalty of five shillings — a lot of money at the time. Although Christmas was made legal in England in 1660, the Crown was unable to exercise influence over its American subjects on the matter until the 1680s, when modest Christmas celebrations were once again permitted in Boston. In 1686, a public Christmas Day service was held at the Boston Town House. Sir Edmund Andros, who sponsored the event, feared violence from Puritan locals, and attended the event flanked by redcoats to guard him while he sang Christmas carols.
Anti-Christmas hostility wouldn't cease entirely for centuries, flaring up in Puritan pockets of colonial America here and there. During the American Revolution, Christmas often came to be associated with royalist sympathizers (comprised largely of High-Church Anglicans and Catholics). Even after ratification of the U.S. Constitution, the Senate and House continued to assemble on Christmas Day, treating it not as a holiday but as a regular work day, and as late as 1850, businesses and schools in New England worked through December 25.
Helped by the success of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, published to much acclaim in 1843 and which presented a cheerful tale of the holiday, Americans' perceptions of Christmas slowly began to change. It wouldn't be until 1870 that Ulysses S. Grant declared Christmas a federal holiday, ensuring the legal celebration of Our Lord's birth in every state. Since that time, the holiday has been celebrated as many Protestant Americans' favorite time of year, the old hostility fading from national memory — but it remains the case that once upon a time, this nation's Protestant forebears sought to do away with Christmas — actions that ultimately found their source in an animus against the Catholic faith.

It is an historical fact that we Protestants were as much against the celebration of Christmas as we were against the Pope and the Catholic Church.


So when did we Protestants come to the Catholic way of worship and begin celebrating Christmas as a holyday?
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
#5
So when did we Protestants come to the Catholic way of worship and begin celebrating Christmas as a holyday?


"Axial tilt is the reason for the season!" Unknown :LOL:



Many early Christians were converted Jews, or what the Sanhedrin of the time would have called, apostates. Those early Christians being former Jews celebrated Sabbath in the traditional sense. Sundown Friday unto sundown Saturday.

Emperor Constantine generations later would issue a civil decree on March 7, 321A.D designating Sunday, Day of the Sun in pagan Rome, as a day of rest from labor.

Many don't know that the days of the week are named for pagan gods and goddesses.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,897
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#6
So when did we Protestants come to the Catholic way of worship and begin celebrating Christmas as a holyday?
"
The celebration of Christmas became a point of contention among many Protestants. Reformation leader Martin Luther permitted the celebration of certain feast days, including Christmas. Other reformers, including John Calvin and John Knox, preferred to worship only where specifically commanded in the Bible.

Geneva, as one of the leading Protestant cities in the mid-1500s, had abolished all feast and saints’ days prior to Calvin’s arrival there. When Calvin was expelled temporarily from the city, the city council authorized some celebrations, while the Geneva Protestant ministers continued to oppose such festivals. After Calvin’s recall to the city, he wrote to Pastor John Halle in Berne on January 2, 1551, that he “pursued the moderate course of keeping Christ's birth-day as you are wont to do.”

With the Scottish Reformation, a clear stand against the observance of Christmas was taken by the Kirk (church) in 1560 and again in 1566.

The Second Helvetic Confession of 1566 recognized the celebration of Christmas by the church. Most continental Reformed churches approved that confession and its specific approval of Christmas observance. The Scottish Kirk did not, arguing that there was no scriptural basis for December 25 as Christ’s birth date.

The debate over religious observance of Christmas was continued in the American colonies by both Puritans and Presbyterians. Where the Anglican Church was the official church of a colony — especially in the South — Christmas was celebrated. But Christmas was not celebrated in New England by the Puritans. Presbyterians did not recognize Christmas wherever they lived.

"https://www.phcmontreat.org/Exhibit-Christmas.html
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,897
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#7
The footnote is one page 223

"Lex Constantini a. 321 (Cod. Just. l. iii., Tit. 12, 3): Imperator Constantinus Aug. Helpidio: “Omnes judices, urbanaeque
plebes et cunctarum artium officia venerabili die Solis quiescant. Ruri tamen positi agrorum culturae libere licenterque inserviant,
quoniam frequenter evenit, ut non aptius alio die frumenta sulcis aut vineae scrobibus mandentur, ne occasione momenti pereat
commoditas coelesti provisione concessa. Dat. Non. Mart. Crispo ii. et Constantino ii. Coss.” In English: “On the venerable Day
of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons
engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable
for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be
lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them for the second time.)” The prohibition of
military exercises is mentioned by Eusebius, Vita Const. IV. 19, 20, and seems to refer to a somewhat later period. In this point
Constantinewas in advance of modern Christian princes, who prefer Sunday for parades."
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....d_Post-Nicene_Christianity_AD_311-600,_EN.pdf

"17. Legal Sanction of Sunday.
7. The civil sanction of the observance of Sunday and other festivals of the church.
The state, indeed, should not and cannot enforce this observance upon any one, but may
undoubtedly and should prohibit the public disturbance and profanation of the Christian Sabbath,
and protect the Christians in their right and duty of its proper observance. Constantine in 321 forbade
the sitting of courts and all secular labor in towns on “the venerable day of the sun,” as he expresses
himself, perhaps with reference at once to the sun-god, Apollo, and to Christ, the true Sun of
righteousness; to his pagan and his Christian subjects. But he distinctly permitted the culture of
farms and vineyards in the country, because frequently this could be attended to on no other day
so well;166 though one would suppose that the hard-working peasantry were the very ones who most
needed the day of rest. Soon afterward, in June, 321, he allowed the manumission of slaves on
Sunday;167 as this, being an act of benevolence, was different from ordinary business, and might
be altogether appropriate to the day of resurrection and redemption. According to Eusebius,
Constantine also prohibited all military exercises on Sunday, and at the same time enjoined the
observance of Friday in memory of the death of Christ.168
Nay, he went so far, in well-meaning but mistaken zeal, as to require of his soldiers, even
the pagan ones, the positive observance of Sunday, by pronouncing at a signal the following prayer,
which they mechanically learned: “Thee alone we acknowledge as God; thee we confess as king;
to thee we call as our helper; from thee we have received victories; through thee we have conquered
enemies. Thee we thank for good received; from thee we hope for good to come. Thee we all most
humbly beseech to keep our Constantine and his God-fearing sons through long life healthy and
victorious.”169 Though this formula was held in a deistical generalness, yet the legal injunction of
it lay clearly beyond the province of the civil power, trespassed on the rights of conscience, and
unavoidably encouraged hypocrisy and empty formalism.
Later emperors declared the profanation of Sunday to be sacrilege, and prohibited also the
collecting of taxes and private debts (368 and 386), and even theatrical and circus performances,
on Sunday and the high festivals (386 and 425).170 But this interdiction of public amusements, on
which a council of Carthage (399 or 401) with reason insisted, was probably never rigidly enforced,
and was repeatedly supplanted by the opposite practice, which gradually prevailed all over Europe.171"

166 This exception is entirely unnoticed by many church histories, but stands in the same law of 321 in the Cod. Justin.
lib. iii. tit. 12, de feriis, l. 3: “Omnes judices, urbanaeque plebes, et cunctarum artium officia venerabili die Solis quiescant. Ruri
tamen positi agrorum culturae libere licenterque inserviant: quoniam frequenter evenit, ut non aptius alio die frumenta sulcis,
aut vineae scrobibus mandentur, ne occasione momenti pereat commoditas coelesti provisione concessa.” Such work was formerly
permitted, too, on the pagan feast days. Comp. Virgil. Georg. i. v. 268 sqq. Cato, De re rust. c. 2.
167 Cod. Theodos. lib. ii. tit. 8. l. 1: “Emancipandi et manumittendi die festo cuncti licentiam habeant, et super his rebus
actus non prohibeantur.”
168 Eus. Vit. Const. iv. 18-20. Comp. Sozom. i. 8. In our times military parades and theatrical exhibitions in Paris, Vienna,
Berlin, and other European cities are so frequent on no other day as on the Lord’s day! In France, political elections are usually
held on the Sabbath!
169 Eus. Vit. Const. l. iv. c. 20. The formulary was prescribed in the Latin language, as Eusebius says in c. 19. He is
speaking of the whole army (comp. c. 18), and it may presumed that many of the soldiers were heathen.
170 The second law against opening theatres on Sundays and festivals (a.d.425) in the Cod. Theodos. l. xv. tit. 7, I. 5, says
expressly: “Omni theatrorum atque circensium voluptate per universas urbes ... denegata, totae Christianorum ac fidelium mentes
Dei cultibus occupentur.”
171 As Chrysostom, at the end of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth, often complains that the theatre is better
attended than the church; so down to this day the same is true in almost all the large cities on the continent of Europe. Only in
England and the United States, under the influence of Calvinism and Puritanism, are the theatres closed on Sunday

This is on pages 63-64 only phrases of a orginal text are given. It is mostly Philip Schaff's opinion.
 

Gardenias

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
1,119
113
U.S.A.
#8
Looking for Christmas friends,can we chat


I believe he meant he was looking for Christian friends........
Look here on how to misunderstand and derail a thread.
Hope all feel better after spitting that out about Christmas!
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,897
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#9
I am very tired from virus again (stopped counting). It looks like Schaff made an error because Constantine died in May, 337. "Flavius Anicius Julianus Justinianus was born about 483 at Tauresium" I am too tired to read when he came into office.

"At the beginning of his reign the Roman emperor Justinian (527-565 A.D.) established a ten-man commission chaired by John the Cappadocian to produce a new code of Roman law. The commission first produced a new compilation of the statutes and constitutions of the emperors, the Codex Justinianus (Codex vetus) that Justinian promulgated on 7 April, 529."
http://legalhistorysources.com/Law508/Roman Law/Justinian.html

Constantine died about 192 years before Codex Justinianus was issued. Thus Phillip Schaff missed the mark.
This issue will need to be investigated while I sleep for a few days.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08578b.htm
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,897
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#10
I believe he meant he was looking for Christian friends........
Look here on how to misunderstand and derail a thread.
Hope all feel better after spitting that out about Christmas!
I apologize, I came in late after the thread went down the rabbit hole. Sorry about that.

Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
770
113
#11
The celebration of Christmas and Easter is nonbiblical, nowhere to be found in Scripture. These celebrations are purely a Catholic dogma. So, why are we celebrating these as holy days in our churches? Doesn't make sense.

Some churches have even begun to celebrate Lent. What's going on?
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,482
1,410
113
#12
The celebration of Christmas and Easter is nonbiblical, nowhere to be found in Scripture. These celebrations are purely a Catholic dogma. So, why are we celebrating these as holy days in our churches? Doesn't make sense.
Here is this:

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions. For one person has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

Are the days holy? Only through the faith of the person who esteems them so.

Do everything to the Lord and your conscience will be clean.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,897
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#13
The celebration of Christmas and Easter is nonbiblical, nowhere to be found in Scripture. These celebrations are purely a Catholic dogma. So, why are we celebrating these as holy days in our churches? Doesn't make sense.

Some churches have even begun to celebrate Lent. What's going on?
1633266090405.png