Five Articles of the Remonstrance of Jacobus Arminius of 1610

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Dec 6, 2019
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but they didn't actually use Philippians 2:13

they have gone quite past it

listen...I told you I am not going to go over the whole pre palooza thing again...not with anyone

I would appreciate it if you would kindly move on from me on this topic

let's not cherry pick verses though. are you acquainted with v.12 same chapter?

put v. 12 in context and it no longer supports the CALVINISTIC leanings that you wish to ascribe to it

how are folks working out their own salvation if God is doing it for them? huh? whatsat?

what Paul is ACTUALLY saying, is put the truth of what you say you believe into PRACTICE. don't sit on yer hinies and wait for God to do it because that is not what Christianity is (the last my words)

Christ, needs to be represented through actions and attitudes

Philippians 2 is dealing with how Christians should live, representing Christ on earth. It is not about how God is doing some mysterious under the hood dealings with folk. God works WITH people

WITH people

but I mean it now when I say that is it for me with you in this discussion. you seem to wish to force debate by continuing to quote me.

more and more Christianity is becoming 'to each his/her own'

use some of that 'discern' and discern I really wish to leave off. at this point, it is an irritation with no positive results
I have not put Calvinist leanings on anything. I am not a Calvinist.

Yes, we work out our salvation. ANY non-Calvinist Christian will agree with the Calvinist Christian that work out does not mean work for. The fact that work out does not mean work for is not Calvinism, Arminianism, or etc. it is Bible.

We are to work out what God has ALREADY worked in us...
 
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I have not put Calvinist leanings on anything. I am not a Calvinist.

Yes, we work out our salvation. ANY non-Calvinist Christian will agree with the Calvinist Christian that work out does not mean work for. The fact that work out does not mean work for is not Calvinism, Arminianism, or etc. it is Bible.

We are to work out what God has ALREADY worked in us...
That is correct, since working for salvation is heresy :)
 
I

ieuan

Guest
I don't think the 'heresy' label helps in discussions like this. Hopefully
the discussion steers people to view the Bible in a new light if their
thinking is erroneous. I like to think that what we discus leads to growth
and understanding. Discussing God's Word is beneficial right?

So if anyone is proposing works, we can answer and say 'Works' are good;
good for us, good for the recipient of those works and hopefully please
God. Then we can say works are expected of us by God, we should not
wish for any reward for doing good, but works alone cannot save, what
saves us is faith in the work done for us on the cross by our Redeemer.
 
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I don't think the 'heresy' label helps in discussions like this. Hopefully
the discussion steers people to view the Bible in a new light if their
thinking is erroneous. I like to think that what we discus leads to growth
and understanding. Discussing God's Word is beneficial right?

So if anyone is proposing works, we can answer and say 'Works' are good;
good for us, good for the recipient of those works and hopefully please
God. Then we can say works are expected of us by God, we should not
wish for any reward for doing good, but works alone cannot save, what
saves us is faith in the work done for us on the cross by our Redeemer.
You make good points. I have found that basing my relationship with God on my performance leads to defeat and discouragement, but when I realize that I am accepted by God because of what Jesus has done, it gives me wings.

To run and work, the Law commands
But gives us neither feet nor hands
But better news the gospel brings
It bids us fly, and gives us wings

John Bunyun
 

Mission21

Pathfinder
Mar 12, 2019
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I don't think the 'heresy' label helps in discussions like this. Hopefully
the discussion steers people to view the Bible in a new light if their
thinking is erroneous. I like to think that what we discus leads to growth
and understanding. Discussing God's Word is beneficial right?

So if anyone is proposing works, we can answer and say 'Works' are good;
good for us, good for the recipient of those works and hopefully please
God. Then we can say works are expected of us by God, we should not
wish for any reward for doing good, but works alone cannot save, what
saves us is faith in the work done for us on the cross by our Redeemer.
You wrote, " I don't think 'heresy' label helps in discussion.. "
Good point.
----
In Christian History, the word 'heresy' was used ( by Church establishments )
to persecute other Christians.
- By Catholic Church..& Protestant Church establishments.
---
Many times.. those persecuted Christians ( by Church establishments ) were
more correct in Biblical & Theological stance/position
 
Dec 6, 2019
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You wrote, " I don't think 'heresy' label helps in discussion.. "
Good point.
----
In Christian History, the word 'heresy' was used ( by Church establishments )
to persecute other Christians.
- By Catholic Church..& Protestant Church establishments.
---
Many times.. those persecuted Christians ( by Church establishments ) were
more correct in Biblical & Theological stance/position
I agree that we should be careful about using the word “heresy” and not throw it around lightly. Also, we should attack arguments if necessary but not individuals (ie not call an individual a heretic) But the Bible speaks of heresies. Most of the epistles dealt with heresies. And there have been heresies throughout church history

Gnosticism

Judaizers

Montanists

Marcion

Etc

That said, I do not hold Calvinism nor Arminianism to be heresies. Forms of hyper cal and hyper Arminian come close to being heretical, if not outright though.

In conclusion, a child of God must not strive, but to be gentle towards all, apt to teach, patient...2 Timothy 2:24
 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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Dear Whispered, I have a question for you and for those who are not Calvinists here....
Do you believe that Calvin is definitely in Heaven since he was a murderer and the Bible says such will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven? x
I think Calvin is in God's hands now and that he helped insure the execution of Michael Servetus, and many others, though he personally did not execute people, is something he will have to answer for.
Calvin apparently did not believe Old Testament laws were obsolete. I think this is why he thought it righteous to have people killed in the name of preserving the faith.

Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.” - Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July/Full text of "John Calvin: His Life, Letters, and Work"
 
Dec 6, 2019
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I think Calvin is in God's hands now and that he helped insure the execution of Michael Servetus, and many others, though he personally did not execute people, is something he will have to answer for.
Calvin apparently did not believe Old Testament laws were obsolete. I think this is why he thought it righteous to have people killed in the name of preserving the faith.

Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.” - Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July/Full text of "John Calvin: His Life, Letters, and Work"
The problem was that the crime of heresy then was punishable by civil law, which I think was and is a big mistake. I do not believe that doctrine should be legislated by civil government.

We will not have a true theocracy until Christ returns. Until then, theocracy is in the hearts of Gods people, and should be in Christ’s body, but not in any civil government of this present age
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
I think Calvin is in God's hands now and that he helped insure the execution of Michael Servetus, and many others, though he personally did not execute people, is something he will have to answer for.
Calvin apparently did not believe Old Testament laws were obsolete. I think this is why he thought it righteous to have people killed in the name of preserving the faith.

Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.” - Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July/Full text of "John Calvin: His Life, Letters, and Work"

the question needs to be asked why Calvin would appeal to the executioners to be rid of those who questioned his doctrines rather than consult the character of Christ and how we are told to pray for enemies

there is no excuse for Calvin's behavior

as a supposed Christian he could hardly appeal to the law instituted by men to subdue and silence any opposition, rather than the 'love your enemies' Jesus taught

and flipping between old and new testaments is not a case of legitimacy either as those in Christ Jesus are no longer under law but saved by grace

yet, no grace was shown :cautious:
 
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Amen and amen. I couldn't of said it better. The Bible is very simple, yet deep at the same time.

This is one of the other dangers I have noticed with Calvinism. Take for example a person addicted to alcohol, if they took Calvinism to its full logical conclusion, they would just sit and wait for God to change their desire for alcohol. If that does not occur and the man keeps failing to stay sober, perhaps he just was not one of the elect?
If one believes as I do, all you need to do is repent and you know the struggle will be there, but you also know that the longer you go the less the temptation, you know temptation is not sin and you know God will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear and has always provided a way out.

This leaves all of us without excuse. Truly without excuse, but in Calvinism everything is decreed by God, and in everything that would include our sins too.

This is a very dangerous theological system, but practically speaking the vast majority of them believe in free will and operate within it each day of their life and do not take it to the fullest logical conclusion.
The fact that it is God at work in us that causes us both to will and to do His good pleasure is not a Calvinistic doctrine. Neither is the fact that faith is a gift from God. Unto us it has been granted to not only believe but also to suffer for His Name. The word translated grant is the verb form of Charis, which means gift or grace. So it has been given or graced to us to believe

Now I am not a Calvinist and I do not say. The gift is held out to some and not to others my point is that article 1 of remonstrance is teaching that God is the one who draws us, births us, keeps us, preserves us, and empowers us. He also is the one who transforms our hearts, the reason why we want to serve Him, the one who gifted us with faith, and the impetus of love, (we love because He first loved us), and the source of ALL of our righteousness, of which we have NONE of ourselves.

Blessings
 
I

ieuan

Guest
Whispered

Servetus was not burned according to OT law, he was executed by the civil authorirties at Geneva
for the charge of heresy. He was tried according to law and was handed a sentence of slow burning.
Geneva had instigated these laws based on what had gone on before through the Catholic King
who ruled most of Europe, the UK was the same. The crime of heresy was a capital crime. So was
it capital for stealing a sheep. Servetus had already been found guilty of heresy by the Catholic
authorities surrounding Geneva and would have been burned by them if handed over. When he
was offered the opportunity to be tried by the RC authorities or Geneva he begged to be not sent
back and wished to be tried at Geneva; Servetus knew he would be tortured there.

After sentencing the Pastors of Geneva met and agreed to petition the civil authorities for the sentnece
to be changed to execution, not by burning. They were however rejected. Calvin's involvement was in
accusing Servetus of heresy, he denied the trinity. Servetus had attended a church service in Geneva and
Calvin saw him from the pupit, as Calvinin had been in communication by letters for years he knew well
that Servetus was propagating heretical writing throughout Europe and was determined to bring him
to account even though that meant execution.

In those days an accuser would be jailed the same as the accused before trial. Calvin was old and so
arranged a fellow pastor to accuse Servetus. There is no doubt that Calvin instigated the charges against
Servetus and those charges were substantiated in a court of law. As a Doctor of the Law (and church) Calvin's
opinion was sought by the court as to servetus' standing and Calvin stated that he was a heretic because
he denied and preached against the doctrine of the Trinity.

Calvin was not accused of any crime, he had not committed any crime in accusing a man of heresy. Heresy
was treated very harshly in those days. How much more serious was it to stealing a sheep. So Calvin has
done nothing to answer for in heaven in my opinion. he certainly does not deserve the name of 'murderer'.

It is easy for us to make judgements on actions undertaken by people five hundred years ago, but in studying
Calvin's history we find a man of the times. I find it hard to take that a man was burned face down on live coals
the Catholics buried women alive, tortured them, and fixed a tongue vice so they could not worship as they burned
all this done at a cruel time. Calvin and the pastors of Geneva recognised the stink that would come from such a
harsh penalty on that poor man and that is why the asked for mercy.

I would ask for restraint in discussing these matters, Calvin was certainly not a murderer.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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the question needs to be asked why Calvin would appeal to the executioners to be rid of those who questioned his doctrines rather than consult the character of Christ and how we are told to pray for enemies

there is no excuse for Calvin's behavior

as a supposed Christian he could hardly appeal to the law instituted by men to subdue and silence any opposition, rather than the 'love your enemies' Jesus taught

and flipping between old and new testaments is not a case of legitimacy either as those in Christ Jesus are no longer under law but saved by grace

yet, no grace was shown :cautious:
That's true. Calvin was not about exemplifying the grace of God.
I think he figured the best way to establish his doctrine was through the open murder of those opposed. Just as in the inquisitions of old, publicly burning people, beheading them, hanging them, for a charged offense against the church or sound doctrine, was one of the most efficient, if not the efficient way, of insuring obedience. And quelling resistance.
That message, "this will be you", as it were.

In a five year period 58 people were killed. And 76 people were banished due to Calvin's zeal.
Link:Calvin's Reign of Terror
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Whispered

Servetus was not burned according to OT law, he was executed by the civil authorirties at Geneva
for the charge of heresy. He was tried according to law and was handed a sentence of slow burning.
Geneva had instigated these laws based on what had gone on before through the Catholic King
who ruled most of Europe, the UK was the same. The crime of heresy was a capital crime. So was
it capital for stealing a sheep. Servetus had already been found guilty of heresy by the Catholic
authorities surrounding Geneva and would have been burned by them if handed over. When he
was offered the opportunity to be tried by the RC authorities or Geneva he begged to be not sent
back and wished to be tried at Geneva; Servetus knew he would be tortured there.

After sentencing the Pastors of Geneva met and agreed to petition the civil authorities for the sentnece
to be changed to execution, not by burning. They were however rejected. Calvin's involvement was in
accusing Servetus of heresy, he denied the trinity. Servetus had attended a church service in Geneva and
Calvin saw him from the pupit, as Calvinin had been in communication by letters for years he knew well
that Servetus was propagating heretical writing throughout Europe and was determined to bring him
to account even though that meant execution.

In those days an accuser would be jailed the same as the accused before trial. Calvin was old and so
arranged a fellow pastor to accuse Servetus. There is no doubt that Calvin instigated the charges against
Servetus and those charges were substantiated in a court of law. As a Doctor of the Law (and church) Calvin's
opinion was sought by the court as to servetus' standing and Calvin stated that he was a heretic because
he denied and preached against the doctrine of the Trinity.

Calvin was not accused of any crime, he had not committed any crime in accusing a man of heresy. Heresy
was treated very harshly in those days. How much more serious was it to stealing a sheep. So Calvin has
done nothing to answer for in heaven in my opinion. he certainly does not deserve the name of 'murderer'.

It is easy for us to make judgements on actions undertaken by people five hundred years ago, but in studying
Calvin's history we find a man of the times. I find it hard to take that a man was burned face down on live coals
the Catholics buried women alive, tortured them, and fixed a tongue vice so they could not worship as they burned
all this done at a cruel time. Calvin and the pastors of Geneva recognised the stink that would come from such a
harsh penalty on that poor man and that is why the asked for mercy.

I would ask for restraint in discussing these matters, Calvin was certainly not a murderer.

well again, you were not here but we have gone over this multiple times and with far more detail

did you miss the point I made about Calvin refusing to follow the same grace he believes he was given?

a person who says they follow Christ when it is convenient or to make a 'show' will turn quickly if the chips are down

OF COURSE Calvin went with the law. it was very convenient for him to do so

God has made clear what He judges and you manipulating the facts of the executions and saying it was 500 years ago, PROVES what I said

the gospel of Jesus, which Calvin had, was clear then and clear now. there is no excuse

I suspect Calvin has been given the same mercy he showed others

the man was not Christlike and his teachings are not either

whatever
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
That's true. Calvin was not about exemplifying the grace of God.
I think he figured the best way to establish his doctrine was through the open murder of those opposed. Just as in the inquisitions of old, publicly burning people, beheading them, hanging them, for a charged offense against the church or sound doctrine, was one of the most efficient, if not the efficient way, of insuring obedience. And quelling resistance.
That message, "this will be you", as it were.

In a five year period 58 people were killed. And 76 people were banished due to Calvin's zeal.
Link:Calvin's Reign of Terror

I wonder how many agreed with him simply to avoid a cruel death murder...quite a few looking at the figures you quote

can you believe that his followers make excuses for him by citing the law of 500 years ago?

perhaps they should acknowledge the torture of the Spanish Inquisition also.

calling someone a heretic means you don't have to listen to them and they now are outside so called established norms

practicing something completely outside of scripture's clear directions, such as praying to dead people, is clearly heresy but the Bible says to teach why that is so ... not kill them and warn others their fate will be the same

reading the article, it seems he did agree with Inquisition.

actually, he was never that far from Catholicism
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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I don't think the 'heresy' label helps in discussions like this. Hopefully
the discussion steers people to view the Bible in a new light if their
thinking is erroneous. I like to think that what we discus leads to growth
and understanding. Discussing God's Word is beneficial right?

So if anyone is proposing works, we can answer and say 'Works' are good;
good for us, good for the recipient of those works and hopefully please
God. Then we can say works are expected of us by God, we should not
wish for any reward for doing good, but works alone cannot save, what
saves us is faith in the work done for us on the cross by our Redeemer.
Well, here we are again telling others not to use heresy. I believe "trinity" is an over simplification of describing the Godhead. Everyone yells heresy. Why is that? I believe Jesus is fully God and separate from the Father. But I stop there and I don't try to define the Holy Spirit. I can't call the HS a person, that seems ludicrous to me. Nonetheless, that makes me a heretic around here. I feel if we acknowledge Jesus as God and claim Him is enough. 1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." I'll leave this well enough alone now.

Everyone here seem to agree on being saved by grace and not works. Me too. When one feel led to keep a commandment, for God, that another doesn't we become offended. I feel God desires me to delight in the Fourth Commandment. To keep it holy not doing my own things from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. I believe this pleases God but I find brethren calling me a heretic for doing so. So what gives? :)
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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I wonder how many agreed with him simply to avoid a cruel death murder...quite a few looking at the figures you quote

can you believe that his followers make excuses for him by citing the law of 500 years ago?

perhaps they should acknowledge the torture of the Spanish Inquisition also.

calling someone a heretic means you don't have to listen to them and they now are outside so called established norms

practicing something completely outside of scripture's clear directions, such as praying to dead people, is clearly heresy but the Bible says to teach why that is so ... not kill them and warn others their fate will be the same

reading the article, it seems he did agree with Inquisition.

actually, he was never that far from Catholicism
Probably because he was Catholic first?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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Calvin wasn't a murderer?
John Calvin's Quotes regarding Michael Servetus

Was John Calvin involved in the murder of Michael Servetus? Did he wish for Servetus' death, and did he claim any credit for his burning?

Quotes from Standford Rives' book "Did Calvin Murder Servetus?" pages 291-295

In a letter addressed to William Farel and Peter Viret dated February 13, 1546, Calvin wrote: “If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.” (page 291)

In a letter of August 20, 1553, one week after Servetus' arrest, Calvin wrote: “I hope that Servetus will be condemned to death.” (page 292)

In 1561, Calvin wrote a letter to Marcus Paet, chamberlain to the king of Navarre, in which Calvin said: "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard." (page 292)

(A review of the apologists defense of John Calvin can be read on page 293.)

An additional resource can be found here, on page 371:
New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. X



As to the Old Covenant Laws:

John Calvin (1509-1564) on the three uses of the Law



Gospel and Law in Reformed theology form two distinct but inseparable aspects of the one revelation of God. The Reformed way of relating gospel and law is often used to distinguish Reformed theology from Lutheran theology. For Martin Luther (1483-1546), even though gospel and law are both considered part of the one Word of God, the chief task of the theologian is to refine one’s ability to distinguish law from gospel, letter from spirit, works from faith. While the Reformed recognize the importance of these distinctions, especially in covenant theology with its unfolding of the historical economy of the covenant of works and the covenant of grace, the Reformed were more concerned to comprehend the law as a positive form of God’s grace. The sentiment from Psalm 19 – that the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, making the simple wise – is a foundational conviction of Reformed piety. The rigour of the law, including its ceremonial prescriptions under the Old Testament dispensation, has been removed as a result of the gospel of Christ. But the gospel indicative, the liberation Christ has achieved for sinful humanity, creates an ethical imperative that includes obedience to God’s commandments.

This is nowhere better illustrated than in John Calvin’s (1509-1564) teaching on the “three uses of the law.” The first use is the theological use whereby the law convicts us of sin. For Luther, this was the law’s primary, although not exclusive, function. The second use, also affirmed by Luther, is the civil use according to which the law restrains social evil. The third use of the law is that by which believers are instructed in living unto righteousness out of gratitude for the grace they have received from the Lord. There are hints of this in Luther, and Luther’s successor Philipp Melanchthon (1497-1560) is responsible for bringing it to the fore in the 16th century theological discussion. But for the Reformed, the third use is the primary use of the law; and this is an affirmation difficult for any good Lutheran to make. This is what Calvin had to say:

“That the whole matter may be made clearer, let us take a succinct view of the office and use of the Moral Law. Now this office and use seems to me to consist of three parts. First, by exhibiting the righteousness of God,—in other words, the righteousness which alone is acceptable to God,—it admonishes every one of his own unrighteousness, certiorates [informs], convicts, and finally condemns him. This is necessary, in order that man, who is blind and intoxicated with self-love, may be brought at once to know and to confess his weakness and impurity…

Thus the Law is a kind of mirror. As in a mirror we discover any stains upon our face, so in the Law we behold, first, our impotence; then, in consequence of it, our iniquity; and, finally, the curse, as the consequence of both. He who has no power of following righteousness is necessarily plunged in the mire of iniquity, and this iniquity is immediately followed by the curse. Accordingly, the greater the transgression of which the Law convicts us, the severer the judgment to which we are exposed…

But while the unrighteousness and condemnation of all are attested by the law, it does not follow (if we make the proper use of it) that we are immediately to give up all hope and rush headlong on despair. No doubt, it has some such effect upon the reprobate, but this is owing to their obstinacy. With the children of God the effect is different. The Apostle testifies that the law pronounces its sentence of condemnation in order ‘that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God,’ (Rom. 3:19). In another place, however, the same Apostle declares, that ‘God has concluded them all in unbelief;’ not that he might destroy all, or allow all to perish, but that ‘he might have mercy upon all,’ (Rom. 11:32); in other words, that divesting themselves of an absurd opinion of their own virtue, they may perceive how they are wholly dependent on the hand of God; that feeling how naked and destitute they are, they may take refuge in his mercy, rely upon it, and cover themselves up entirely with it; renouncing all righteousness and merit, and clinging to mercy…

But even in the reprobate themselves, this first office of the law is not altogether wanting. They do not, indeed, proceed so far with the children of God as, after the flesh is cast down, to be renewed in the inner man, and revive again, but stunned by the first terror, give way to despair. Still it tends to manifest the equity of the Divine judgment, when their consciences are thus heaved upon the waves. They would always willingly carp at the judgment of God; but now, though that judgment is not manifested, still the alarm produced by the testimony of the law and of their conscience bespeaks their deserts…

Continues

– John Calvin (1509-1564), Institutes of the Christian Religion, II.vii.6-12
Excerpted from and more reading
 
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Servetus was not condemned to be burned by Calvin. He was condemned by civil authorities. Calvin did not have the power to reverse the sentence. He did not even have the power to have it changed to a more quicker method, less painful method of execution. He attempted to do so and failed.

The sad thing is that numerous church leaders consented to the death of Servetus.

Servetus was teaching false doctrine, (denied Trinity, I believe also Universalism, I could be mistaken.) But I do not believe in condemning false teachers to death

But this is totally unrelated to the original post. The thread is about the Remonstrants, not Calvin.