God is love (1 Jn. 4:8).

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

"According to St. John, God is love (1 Jn. 4:8). We also know from the Scriptures that God does not change [cf. Heb. 13;8.]. Therefore, God loves both the just and the unjust equally. God does not get angry. God does not get offended. These images from the Scriptures are anthropomorphisms. They are human characteristics that are attributed to God for a specific didactic purpose, much in the same way we speak of the hand of God or the heart of God. It is inconceivable, however, that human actions should cause God to change -- to be offended or be angry.
"The difference between the blessed and the damned, therefore, is not how God treats them, but in how they each experience the presence and love of God. The blessed respond to God in love and experience His love and providential care precisely as that. The unrighteous, however, do not respond to God's love and therefore experience it as wrath and judgment. The objective reality is one and the same -- God is love -- but the subjective apprehension of that reality determines the state of one's blessedness or damnation. St. Maximus the Confessor wrote:
God is the sun of justice, as it is written, who shines rays of goodness on simply everyone. The soul develops according to its free will into either wax because of its love for God or into mud because of its love of matter. Thus just as by nature the mud is dried out by the sun and wax is automatically softened, so also every soul which loves matter and the world and has fixed its mind far from God is hardened as mud according to its free will and by itself advances to its perdition, as did Pharaoh. However, every soul which loves God is softened as wax, and
receiving divine impressions and characters it becomes "the dwelling place of God in the Spirit" (Chapters on Knowledge 1:12, pp. 130-131.).
"Even the fire of hell is, according to the Fathers of the Church, the love
of God, which the damned experience in a negative way (Cf. Rom. 12:20: Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink; for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.). For our God is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29). For the righteous the love of God is a purifying, illuminating, and deifying fire. (1) For the unrighteous it is a burning fire.
"In order to participate in the life of God - or rather to experience God as a blessing and not a curse -- our hearts and souls must be purified. ..." [pages 94-95, q.v.: THE TRUTH: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know About the Orthodox Church. by Clark Carlton. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Press, 1999.].

Regina Orthodox Press Online Store


Notes.

1. The Fathers often employ the image of heating an iron in a fire as a metaphor for deification. As the iron gets hot it begins to glow and take on the properties of the fire, yet it remains iron. In the same way, man becomes deified by the divine, uncreated grace, taking on the characteristics of God, while remaining human. The iron is not changed into fire, nor is man changed into God, but man participates in the life of God, as the iron participates in the properties of fire.

Lord have mercy on us. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

God's anger is not a 'change' in God...God has always been angered over sin...that hasn't changed...

this latest example of eastern orthodoxist hyper-cataphatic theology exaggerates the notion of God's changelessness to the point of implying that God is in stasis and incapable of reaction...

it is also proof that the modern liberal tendency to deny the existence of hell has influenced the eastern orthodox churches...resulting in an altered doctrine of a hell that isn't really the biblical hell...

 

[ChristIsTruth]

God does not get angry.

This is the opposite of what the Word of God teaches.

God is angry with the wicked every day. (Psalm 7:11)

 

[lil_christian]

And to add to that ChristisTruth, God was angry with the Israelites when they complained in the wilderness.

 

[cronjecj]

we all make mistakes..

and im sure scotty knows that.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

God's anger is not a 'change' in

God...God has always been angered over sin...that hasn't changed...

this latest example of eastern orthodoxist hyper-cataphatic theology

exaggerates the notion of God's changelessness to the point of implying

that God is in stasis and incapable of reaction...

it is also proof that the modern liberal tendency to deny the existence

of hell has influenced the eastern orthodox churches...result ing in an

altered doctrine of a hell that isn't really the biblical hell...

Dear Rachel, Again, you misunderstand and distort (ignore) what is

being said. It is Protestantism that has an altered doctrine of hell that

really isn't the biblical hell. It is Calvinist fatalism (double

predestination) that God makes the majority of people of the world

sin so He can send them all to hell. This isn't the Lutheran doctrine,

but the most popular form of Protestantism, or at least arguably

the most widely-accepted error in Protestantism, is Calvinism. At

least in Scotland and in much of America. Lutheranism isn't the

most popular form of Protestantism in America, and Lutheranism

The Bible does not say "God is wrath" (anger). It says "God is love".

To deny this is to deny the Bible. It (the Bible, Lutheranism, and

Eastern Orthodoxy) also denies double predestination.

It denies that God makes people sin (the Bible denies Calvinism).

In Calvinism is the Augustinian notion of the denial of the wideness in

God's mercy that prevails in many forms of Protestantism. Except in

Methodism, some forms of Anglicanism,and most of Lutheranism, and

some of the Baptist denominations. Scripture says "There is more joy

in heaven overone sinner who repents than over 99 just men in no

need of repentance". The Bible does not speak against the wideness of

God's mercy and the power of His everlasting (steadfast) love, in

verses which Calvinists hate, such as I St. Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9. God is willing to save all who repent and seek Him and seek His

face and turn from their wicked, wicked ways, and call upon His Name,

His (Jesus') Name. The "expectation of the wicked is wrath" (1), so it

is easier for the wicked to believe in the wrath of God than to believe

in and hope in (hope for) the love of God.

Notes

1. Proverbs 11:23 NKJV: "The hope of the ungodly is destruction"

(Proverbs 11:22 SAAS OSB, page 839, q.v.). "Both good and evil

desires are motivated by hope for fulfillment. The righteous hope for

fulfillment in the kingdom of God, therefore, every desire is energized

by this hope. But the desire of the ungodly is energized by hoping in

this fallen world. Since this world is perishing, its hopes perish with it".

OSB SAAS note of Prov. 11:22. OSB Orthodox Study Bible SAAS

Saint Athanasius Academy Septuagint

God save us in His mercy in Christ our Lord. Amen. In Erie PA

Scott R. Harrington

 

[ChristIsTruth]

It denies that God makes people sin (the Bible denies Calvinism).

Calvinism is certainly false with it's false gospel of limited atonement (Christ died for everyone, Hebrews 2:6-9). But the Bible clearly teaches that God makes people sin.

Isaiah says,

O LORD, why have you made us to err from your ways, and hardened our heart from your fear? Return for your servants' sake, the tribes of your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)

David prayed,

Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practice wicked workswith men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties. (Psalm 141:4)

God says,

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

Also, notice what God says in 2 Samuel,

Thus said the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. (2 Samuel 12:11-12)

Here, God says that He will take David's wives, give them to his neighbor, and his neighbor shall lie with his wives in the sight of this sun. Such describes adultery (sin). Yet God says, "I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." God caused such sin (2 Samuel 16:21-22).

God causes all things. As it is written:

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

Through God, people sin. God is righteous in all that He does (Psalm 145:17), and something that He does is make people sin. Also, He still finds fault (Romans 9:19-21). This is the true God (Isaiah 44:6).

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Calvinism is certainly false with it's false gospel of limited atonement (Christ died for everyone, Hebrews 2:6-9). But the Bible clearly teaches that God makes people sin.

Isaiah says,

O LORD, why have you made us to err from your ways, and hardened our heart from your fear? Return for your servants' sake, the tribes of your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)

David prayed,

Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practice wicked workswith men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties. (Psalm 141:4)

God says,

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

Also, notice what God says in 2 Samuel,

Thus said the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. (2 Samuel 12:11-12)

Here, God says that He will take David's wives, give them to his neighbor, and his neighbor shall lie with his wives in the sight of this sun. Such describes adultery (sin). Yet God says, "I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." God caused such sin (2 Samuel 16:21-22).

God causes all things. As it is written:

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

Through God, people sin. God is righteous in all that He does (Psalm 145:17), and something that He does is make people sin. Also, He still finds fault (Romans 9:19-21). This is the true God (Isaiah 44:6).

Christ prayed, "And lead us not into temptation", so God does not tempt man, nor cause him to sin. You're misinterpreting the Old Testament!
A man is tempted and deceived by his own lust (evil desire); God does not make man sin.
That would be wrong if it were true. And God cannot cause evil.
God is only good.

 

[ChristIsTruth]

"God does not tempt man, nor cause him to sin" - OldOrthodoxChristian

God Himself does not tempt anyone (James 1:13). But it is false and a lie to say that God does not cause man to sin. I gave clear verses that show that He does cause sin.

"You're misinterpreting the Old Testament!" - OldOrthodoxChristian

Well, so you say. But where is your proof? I don't see any. Also, you don't take God at His Word. What does 2 Samuel 12:11-12 speak of? It speaks of adultery involving David's wives and David's neighbor. What does the Lord say? He says, "I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun" (2 Samuel 12:12). God clearly shows that He is the one who caused the adultery to happen. God said, "I will do this thing" (2 Samuel 12:12). Are you saying that God lied (Titus 1:2)? He didn't cause it? He didn't "do this thing" (2 Samuel 12:12)?

Also, I ask you, who is the one saying that He will cause people to eat their own children in this verse,

And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and narrow place, with which their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them. (Jeremiah 19:9)

Can you tell me?

Additionally, OldOrthodoxChristian said,

"God does not make man sin."

Isaiah says,

"O LORD, why have you made us to err from your ways, and hardened our heart from your fear?" (Isaiah 63:17)

OldOrthodoxChristian said,

"God cannot cause evil."

God says,

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

The Word of God says,

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

God said,

"Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house" (2 Samuel 12:11)

 

[shroom2]

If God causes us to sin, then finds fault with us for sinning, He is the definition of cruel.

OOC is right, you do not understand the OT. The devil is mostly masked in the OT, God takes the credit and blame for everything. People were not equipped to deal with a spiritual enemy. Jesus Christ made known the spiritual war we are in, the reality of the enemy we have.

God really is good.

 

[ChristIsTruth]

"If God causes us to sin, then finds fault with us for sinning" - shroom2

If? The Scripture says He does. Have you never read 2 Samuel 24 where God moved David to sin and punished him afterwords? Also, have you never read Romans 9:18-21? Paul shows that God still finds fault.

"God really is good" - shroom2

The true God indeed is (Nahum 1:7). And this good God causes people to sin (2 Samuel 12:11-12; 24:1, 10; Psalm 141:4; Isaiah 30:27-28; 45:7; 63:17; Jeremiah 19:9; Romans 1:28; 11:36).

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

"If God causes us to sin, then finds fault with us for sinning" - shroom2

If? The Scripture says He does. Have you never read 2 Samuel 24 where God moved David to sin and punished him afterwords? Also, have you never read Romans 9:18-21? Paul shows that God still finds fault.

"God really is good" - shroom2

The true God indeed is (Nahum 1:7). And this good God causes people to sin (2 Samuel 12:11-12; 24:1, 10; Psalm 141:4; Isaiah 30:27-28; 45:7; 63:17; Jeremiah 19:9; Romans 1:28; 11:36).

Dear ChristIsTruth.
Again, you misunderstand the OT. If what you say is true, then the following Scripture is not true: "God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all".
If God caused sin, there would be darkness (evil) in God.
But the Bible says God is Holy.
Whatever causes sin is sinful.
God is holy.
Therefore God cannot cause sin.
Sin happens in sinners when they believe what the devil says.
You twist the Scriptures, ChristIsTruth.
The Scriptures you cite do not mean that God causes sin.
You take them out of context.
There is nothing in the OT that says, "Take all these Scriptures literally".
If we took all the Scriptures literally, we would believe our Lord Jesus is a wooden plank with a knob in the middle. Because Christ said, "I am the door".
Did He mean this literally? No!
Is everything in the OT or the NT for that matter to be interpreted literally? Not at all!
God bless you.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS There is no contradiction in Christ. Christ would not tell us to pray, "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one", if Christ wanted to lead anyone into temptation, and if Christ did not want to deliver anyone from the evil one.
Christ tempts no one; Christ causes no one to sin. Romans 1:28 does not say God makes people sin. People are given by God what they give to God. If they do right, God gives them right; if they do wrong, God gives them their own wrong. God does not make people sin. People listen to the temptation of the evil one, and give in.
But not all sin is voluntary. There are also involuntary sins.
Human nature is corrupted because it is mortal; all sin because all are born mortal, and will inevitably die, unless Christ first comes again to save them from dying.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Calvinism is certainly false with it's false gospel of limited

atonement (Christ died for everyone, Hebrews 2:6-9). But the Bible clearly teaches

that God makes people sin.



.

Dear ChristIsTruth: That's totally illogical ! The idea that God makes

people sin IS CALVINISM!

Scott Harrington Erie PA

 

[ChristIsTruth]

"Again, you misunderstand the OT." - OldOrthodoxChristian

Again, you give no proof.

"If what you say is true, then the following Scripture is not true: 'God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all'" -OldOrthodoxChristian

What I have said is certainly true. I gave verses from the Bible that show that God makes people sin. Those verses are true. So, what you are saying is, that if the Bible is true, then the Bible is not true. You speak foolishness (Proverbs 15:2)!

God is light, in Him there is no darkness (1 John 1:5). This is true. He is the Creator of evil (Isaiah 45:7). This is true. He is the cause of all things (Romans 11:36). This is true. God is the one who caused David's neighbor to lie with David's wives (adultery), 2 Samuel 12:11-12. This is true. All of God's Word stands true (Psalm 119:160). Sad thing it is to see you reject what God teaches.

"If God caused sin, there would be darkness (evil) in God." - OldOrthodoxChristian

According to you and your thinking (Psalm 94:11). Not according to God's Word.

"You twist the Scriptures, ChristIsTruth." - OldOrthodoxChristian

This is slander (2 Timothy 3:3). Twisting God's Holy Word is serious sin (e.g. 2 Peter 3:16). But, you have not proven that I twist the Scriptures. You have said that I twist them. But that doesn't prove that I do. Thus, you are a slanderer (2 Timothy 3:3). The truth is that I believe what the Bible says. Taking God at His word and believing exactly what He says is twisting the Scriptures? Is this what you are thinking in that mind of yours (Psalm 94:11)?

"There is nothing in the OT that says, 'Take all these Scriptures literally'" - OldOrthodoxChristian

Scripture means what it says. God's Word is to be believed. The unbelieving go to the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Those who don't believe God's commandments are cursed (Psalm 119:21).

"If we took all the Scriptures literally, we would believe our Lord Jesus is a wooden plank with a knob in the middle. Because Christ said, 'I am the door'" - OldOrthodoxChristian

John 10:7? That is in the context of "parable" (John 10:6). Jesus was using an illustration in John 10, and the text itself qualifies this (John 10:6). The Word of God is to be taken for what it says. It is only to be taken as a parable, symbolic, etc., if God's Word teaches so. Not if you say so, but if God says so. All of the verses I gave teach what they teach. You have not shown from the Bible that they are not to be taken literally

"Christ causes no one to sin." - OldOrthodoxChristian

Then who is the one who caused the people to eat their own childern (sin) in Jeremiah 19:9?

"Romans 1:28 does not say God makes people sin." - OldOrthodoxChristian

He gave them over to do those things which are not fitting (Romans 1:28). So, in other words, He gave them over to do sin. God giving them over to do such is an action on God's part. The Greek word used (παρεδωκε&#957 is an aorist active indicative verb. He is the one who made it happen. This verse does show that God made them sin. You just reject it.
　
"God does not make people sin." - OldOrthodoxChristian

So Isaiah was mistaken (Isaiah 63:17)?


"That's totally illogical ! The idea that God makes

people sin IS CALVINISM!" - OldOrthodoxChristian

The idea that God makes people sin is Biblical. If Calvinists claim to believe such, that doesn't mean they are in the truth, for they believe a false gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). In other words, they believe in limited atonement (which is completely not Biblical).