Gov. Brown signs controversial assisted-suicide bill

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H

hopesprings

Guest
#21
Kinda like the kettle calling the pot black.

You do know the difference between an apple and an orange I hope...as in capital punishment vs. assisted suicide.
An apple is crunchy and an orange is squishy, right? Or am I missing something.... :)

innocent people have been sent to the death chamber, but many Christians still stand behind it. The benefit is greater than the risk, right? Yet, I'm sure, that many of these same Christians stand against assisted suicide, touting "now anyone can kill themselves" as their reason for why it's wrong. Tell me u don't see the hypocrisy in that. The justice system can condemn u to death but u have no right over your own life. Squishy....
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#22
Yes, Ember, I find your previous post to me offensive. It is fine that you don't agree with me, but there's really no reason for you to apply an insult of me being a know it all to your comment. Your comment is offensive. U saying it isn't, doesn't make it so. And please don't presume to know how "upset" I am. Chances are, if I did miss a word, it was just a typo...

I called the articles reasons for being against assisted suicide stupid. that's not the same thing as calling someone a know it all. I don't think the girl who wrote that article is a know it all, crossnote, and I dont think she's stupid either. Smart people say stupid things all the time, it doesn't make the person stupid. It puzzles me how people can't tell the difference between these two things...

i do apologize Crossnote if my calling the article you posted stupid was offensive to you. I could definitely been more tactful about it and just said I strongly disagree with it. So..if u were offended, I'm sorry, and if you weren't then there's one in the bank for the next time I do it.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,602
113
#23
It's jmo, but if you're depressed and you go to the doctor and you all like "my life sucks so bad I can't take it anymore so please put me outta my misery, doc", that doctor is NOT going to help you. That would be both unethical AND immoral. Depression IS treatable, whereas obviously suicide is not. :/ Sorry but the doctor ain't gonna assist you just because your life sucks so bad. Do something to turn it around instead of taking the easy, final, coward's way out.
 
E

ember

Guest
#24
Yes, Ember, I find your previous post to me offensive. It is fine that you don't agree with me, but there's really no reason for you to apply an insult of me being a know it all to your comment. Your comment is offensive. U saying it isn't, doesn't make it so. And please don't presume to know how "upset" I am. Chances are, if I did miss a word, it was just a typo...

I called the articles reasons for being against assisted suicide stupid. that's not the same thing as calling someone a know it all. I don't think the girl who wrote that article is a know it all, crossnote, and I dont think she's stupid either. Smart people say stupid things all the time, it doesn't make the person stupid. It puzzles me how people can't tell the difference between these two things...

i do apologize Crossnote if my calling the article you posted stupid was offensive to you. I could definitely been more tactful about it and just said I strongly disagree with it. So..if u were offended, I'm sorry, and if you weren't then there's one in the bank for the next time I do it.
I find you thinking it is ok to take the place of God in deciding matters of life and death to be offensive

I guess it all depends on who we are trying to follow in this life..God or man

My comments are not offensive...you are offended by them and that is a different thing

I won't be responding to you again here...we don't agree...I am sorry you choose to be offended
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#25
I find you thinking it is ok to take the place of God in deciding matters of life and death to be offensive

I guess it all depends on who we are trying to follow in this life..God or man

My comments are not offensive...you are offended by them and that is a different thing

I won't be responding to you again here...we don't agree...I am sorry you choose to be offended

Im guessing by your first sentence u didn't get immunization shots and u don't take antibiotics when u get an infection either?

You shouldn't automatically assume that you're the one following God here..u could very well be wrong...stranger things have happened.

As for the rest, just shakin my head...lady...just shakin my head.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#26
what's with all the offendedness score-keeping????
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#27
making the terminally ill suffer longer then they need to is inhumane. Not just anyone can get this prescription. And the doctor doesn't physically take your life...he prescribes the drugs necessary to end your life, but it is up to u to take them. And if the doctor suspects u r depressed or otherwise incapable of making this decision objectively, then they cannot prescribe u the drugs.

Some ppl who r actually being forced to deteriorate with MS or ALS or any other one of those other numerous diseases that will eventually, and painfully, take their lives, are probably quite content knowing that this is now an option for them...and that they can die with dignity. I think it is entirely necessary.
You have some really different ideas about dignity than I. My grandmother died from ALS, and she was a very competent and noble woman in her healthy years, she died in her own home, in her own room, cared for by her husband and children until she took her last breath... and EVERYONE cared for her tenderly until the end. She would communicate by blinking... that was the painful thing 3 blinks was I love you... and I don't think anyone could say it or see her blinks too much!

Her husband followed her a few years later to cancer... same manner of care... and deeply loved.. died in his own home surrounded by his children. Those are examples of dying with dignity as far as I am concerned. Both of them were on medication but that is not the same as specifically taking a drug cocktail to decide your "appointed" time.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,951
113
#28
These people have awesome testimonies, as do u. I understand that some ppl are able to endure and find peace, strength, and meaning in doing so. But that rule doesn't apply to everyone and I believe it is cruel to force everyone to fit into that mold. Dr Death is an exception and not the rule to doctors helping with assisted suicide, and I wonder how much of the horror stories of assisted suicide are fabricated.

you made a comment that if I knew anything about palliative care my stance would be different. I have been a hospice nurse for the past three yrs, worked in a hospital palliative care unit a yr prior to that, and spent two yrs working in the hospital cancer unit before that. I am very familiar with the dying process and the effect that it has on loved ones and the individuals actually going through it. I am not saying everyone should or will choose this new option, but I think it is entirely unjust to deny them that choice. I do not believe that someone who chooses this route is going to hell. I believe that God knows the heart and I believe that it is that persons life and should be their choice.

It might be beneficial to read up or watch some interviews with people who have personal convictions as to why assisted suicide is necessary. Most of it does not stem from a selfish attitude, but from a place of compassion and caring and personal experience.
I think you have become a victim to the propaganda of the "right to die" crowd. Personally I really don't care what the arguments are from the humanist/not-valuing life crowd. I care what the Bible says about the hour of our death.
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live," Deut. 30:19

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;" Eccl. 3:1-2





The time to die is not picked by us. Instead, God has given us the tools to ease the pain, ameliorate the depression and to minister to those who are suffering. It also worries me that many of these people who will now choose to die because of pain or depression are not saved. Perversely, instead of saving them from pain in this life, assisted suicide is a quicker way to hell. Maybe those final months on earth, waiting for a natural death, would have been the time that person turned to Christ.

This happened to my father. He was dying of congestive heart failure. It was suggested he be actively "helped" to die. My sister (who is NOT a Christian) and I refused. During that time, my father accepted Christ at the of age 82. He lived 5 months longer - enough for him to remember the Lord's Prayer, have me read him the Bible, pray with him, sing hymns with him, and for him to witness to all the medical staff. What a horrific thing it would have been if we had listened to the "right to die" advocates, and allowed the medications he didn't need to kill him. He would be in hell, instead of sitting at the feet of Jesus.

Try viewing this issue from a Christian perspective, and maybe you will change your opinions about this issue, and consider God's viewpoint on whether we should be murdering people when they ask for help to overcome the suffering and pain from terminal illnesses or depression.

PS. One of the things my sister learned as we walked with my father, is that putting a dog or beloved pet down is not the same as putting down a human being. She realized the value of human life, and that even in suffering, our lives are not about ourselves, but our families and those who love the dying person.

Yes the sancitity of human life is a value we need to fight FOR! Both at the beginning and the end of life!


 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,711
3,651
113
#29
An apple is crunchy and an orange is squishy, right? Or am I missing something.... :)

innocent people have been sent to the death chamber, but many Christians still stand behind it. The benefit is greater than the risk, right? Yet, I'm sure, that many of these same Christians stand against assisted suicide, touting "now anyone can kill themselves" as their reason for why it's wrong. Tell me u don't see the hypocrisy in that. The justice system can condemn u to death but u have no right over your own life. Squishy....
Likewise, I find it interesting that those who are against the death penalty are usually gung ho over euthanasia and infanticide (synonomous to abortion as both are the murder of infants).
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,602
113
#30
It's jmo, but if you're depressed and you go to the doctor and you all like "my life sucks so bad I can't take it anymore so please put me outta my misery, doc", that doctor is NOT going to help you. That would be both unethical AND immoral. Depression IS treatable, whereas obviously suicide is not. :/ Sorry but the doctor ain't gonna assist you just because your life sucks so bad. Do something to turn it around instead of taking the easy, final, coward's way out.

To expound on this a bit, I think there's going to be alot of people who are going to go to their doctors and give the worst sob stories as an excuse to qualify for assisted suicide, and by this I mean the ones who have nothing wrong with them but still feel life isn't worth living, and just want a legal, easy way out, instead of taking steps to change their life for the better. I would hope that if there are conditions or qualifications for this bill, they would be for terminally ill people, and not just some joker who is tired of life because things aren't going his way. IMO, terminally ill people deserve to be put out of their agony before it becomes unbearable, and I'm pretty sure if they choose to die at home, then the doctor could go there to administer the drug.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#31
Likewise, I find it interesting that those who are against the death penalty are usually gung ho over euthanasia and infanticide (synonomous to abortion as both are the murder of infants).
hey...you're totally right...it goes both ways. Personally I think the difference with assisted suicide is that I would choose to take my own life as opposed to someone choosing it for me, but I get your point. I actually am not against the death penalty...so there ;)
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
#32
Both abortion and assisted suicide are paths folks take when they are no longer trusting God, they are also paths folks take who are playing God with the lives of others, those who are yet to be born or mentally unstable are relying on the actions of those who (are supposed to) love them.

It's the same with capitol punishment. Do we think God won't punish those who do wrong whilst on this earth?
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
#33
Assisted suicide very recently got "thrown out" here in the UK. Lots of people unhappy about that - I'm not one of them.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#34
I think you have become a victim to the propaganda of the "right to die" crowd. Personally I really don't care what the arguments are from the humanist/not-valuing life crowd. I care what the Bible says about the hour of our death.
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live," Deut. 30:19

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;" Eccl. 3:1-2





The time to die is not picked by us. Instead, God has given us the tools to ease the pain, ameliorate the depression and to minister to those who are suffering. It also worries me that many of these people who will now choose to die because of pain or depression are not saved. Perversely, instead of saving them from pain in this life, assisted suicide is a quicker way to hell. Maybe those final months on earth, waiting for a natural death, would have been the time that person turned to Christ.

This happened to my father. He was dying of congestive heart failure. It was suggested he be actively "helped" to die. My sister (who is NOT a Christian) and I refused. During that time, my father accepted Christ at the of age 82. He lived 5 months longer - enough for him to remember the Lord's Prayer, have me read him the Bible, pray with him, sing hymns with him, and for him to witness to all the medical staff. What a horrific thing it would have been if we had listened to the "right to die" advocates, and allowed the medications he didn't need to kill him. He would be in hell, instead of sitting at the feet of Jesus.

Try viewing this issue from a Christian perspective, and maybe you will change your opinions about this issue, and consider God's viewpoint on whether we should be murdering people when they ask for help to overcome the suffering and pain from terminal illnesses or depression.

PS. One of the things my sister learned as we walked with my father, is that putting a dog or beloved pet down is not the same as putting down a human being. She realized the value of human life, and that even in suffering, our lives are not about ourselves, but our families and those who love the dying person.

Yes the sancitity of human life is a value we need to fight FOR! Both at the beginning and the end of life!

Maybe you're right, Angela. Maybe I'm not looking at this from an entirely "christian" perspective. Your dads story is a great testimonial as well...but these things don't happen all the time and many people with Terminal illnesses cannot say they went quietly into the night. It's cool that u and your sister said no to the "right to die" advocates who wanted your dad to die before he was ready. That was your right to say no. So why shouldn't it be someone else's right to say yes? And..I'm sorry...but God can reach a heart if they have ten minutes left or ten yrs...I just don't know what else to say about that.
And i understand that u feel I have is opinion because I've been indoctrinated by "right to die" propaganda or whatever...maybe I have this opinion because (like you're personal experiences and personal study led u to a different conclusion) after working closely and intimately with the dying...I think this option is necessary.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#35
You have some really different ideas about dignity than I. My grandmother died from ALS, and she was a very competent and noble woman in her healthy years, she died in her own home, in her own room, cared for by her husband and children until she took her last breath... and EVERYONE cared for her tenderly until the end. She would communicate by blinking... that was the painful thing 3 blinks was I love you... and I don't think anyone could say it or see her blinks too much!

Her husband followed her a few years later to cancer... same manner of care... and deeply loved.. died in his own home surrounded by his children. Those are examples of dying with dignity as far as I am concerned. Both of them were on medication but that is not the same as specifically taking a drug cocktail to decide your "appointed" time.
hi BarlyGurl :)
maybe I do have some different ideas about dignity then u do. I think a person can show dignity in death regardless of the manner in which they die. Both those examples u gave are dignified deaths...the woman who chooses assisted suicide can die with dignity as well. It takes courage to take either path.

It seems to me that the majority of people who choose assisted suicide do not choose it lightly or because they are afraid to go through the physical deterioration. It is chosen because they don't want to be a burden to their loved ones. Sometimes I feel that it is the loved ones who are being selfish in asking the dying to endure.

(My last two sentences were not meant about your grandmother. I was speaking generally.)
 
M

Miri

Guest
#37
The whole thing about assisted suicide seems to be based on a foundation
of fear.

Fear of being a burden
Fear of a painful undignified death
Fear that loved ones will get upset by seeing someone dying
Fear of been left alone to dye
Fear of losing respect, control etc
Fear of losing what it means to be a human being
Fear that the next day will be worse than the previous etc etc
Fear of financial difficulties, can we afford the drugs, equipment etc

The solution is not to agree to assisted suicide, but rather to address all
these issues. Put in place systems to care for people and their families in
this situation.

I am reminded of those bible verses that perfect love casts out fear.

Of course though from a State point of view it will be more costly to actually look
after people properly and support them, than it is to simply allow them to be
"bumped" off.

Shame on any government which reduces human life in this manner.
Human beings should not be put down like animals. We are spiritual beings
made in His image, the peak of creation.

Trying reading the following verses then explain to God what right we
have to treat each other in this way.

Psalm 139:1-24 AMP
[1] O LORD, you have searched me thoroughly and have known me.
[2] You know my downsitting and my uprising; You understand my thought afar off.
[3] You sift and search out my path and my lying down, and You are acquainted
with all my ways. [4] For there is not a word in my tongue still unuttered, but,
behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. [5] You have beset me and shut me
in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me. [6] Your infinite
knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
[7] Where could I go from Your Spirit? Or where could I flee from Your presence?
[8] If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol
(the place of the dead), behold, You are there. [9] If I take the wings of
the morning or dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, [10] Even there shall
Your hand lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me.

[11] If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me and the night shall be the only
light about me, [12] Even the darkness hides nothing from You, but the night
shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You. [13] For
You did form my inward parts; You did knit me together in my mother's womb.

[14] I will confess and praise You for You are fearful and wonderful and for the
awful wonder of my birth! Wonderful are Your works, and that my inner self
knows right well. [15] My frame was not hidden from You when I was being
formed in secret and intricately and curiously wrought as if embroidered with
various colors in the depths of the earth a region of darkness and mystery.

[16] Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days of
my life were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none
of them. [17] How precious and weighty also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them! [18] If I could count them, they would be more
in number than the sand. When I awoke, could I count to the end I would still
be with You. [19] If You would only slay the wicked, O God, and the men of
blood depart from me-- [20] Who speak against You wickedly, Your enemies
who take Your name in vain! [21] Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And am I not grieved and do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

[22] I hate them with perfect hatred; they have become my enemies. [23] Search
me thoroughly, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
[24] And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way
everlasting.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#38
The whole thing about assisted suicide seems to be based on a foundation
of fear.

Fear of being a burden
Fear of a painful undignified death
Fear that loved ones will get upset by seeing someone dying
Fear of been left alone to dye
Fear of losing respect, control etc
Fear of losing what it means to be a human being
Fear that the next day will be worse than the previous etc etc
Fear of financial difficulties, can we afford the drugs, equipment etc

The solution is not to agree to assisted suicide, but rather to address all
these issues. Put in place systems to care for people and their families in
this situation.

I am reminded of those bible verses that perfect love casts out fear.

Of course though from a State point of view it will be more costly to actually look
after people properly and support them, than it is to simply allow them to be
"bumped" off.

Shame on any government which reduces human life in this manner.
Human beings should not be put down like animals. We are spiritual beings
made in His image, the peak of creation.

Trying reading the following verses then explain to God what right we
have to treat each other in this way.

Psalm 139:1-24 AMP
[1] O LORD, you have searched me thoroughly and have known me.
[2] You know my downsitting and my uprising; You understand my thought afar off.
[3] You sift and search out my path and my lying down, and You are acquainted
with all my ways. [4] For there is not a word in my tongue still unuttered, but,
behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. [5] You have beset me and shut me
in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me. [6] Your infinite
knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
[7] Where could I go from Your Spirit? Or where could I flee from Your presence?
[8] If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol
(the place of the dead), behold, You are there. [9] If I take the wings of
the morning or dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, [10] Even there shall
Your hand lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me.

[11] If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me and the night shall be the only
light about me, [12] Even the darkness hides nothing from You, but the night
shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You. [13] For
You did form my inward parts; You did knit me together in my mother's womb.

[14] I will confess and praise You for You are fearful and wonderful and for the
awful wonder of my birth! Wonderful are Your works, and that my inner self
knows right well. [15] My frame was not hidden from You when I was being
formed in secret and intricately and curiously wrought as if embroidered with
various colors in the depths of the earth a region of darkness and mystery.

[16] Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days of
my life were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none
of them. [17] How precious and weighty also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How vast is the sum of them! [18] If I could count them, they would be more
in number than the sand. When I awoke, could I count to the end I would still
be with You. [19] If You would only slay the wicked, O God, and the men of
blood depart from me-- [20] Who speak against You wickedly, Your enemies
who take Your name in vain! [21] Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And am I not grieved and do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

[22] I hate them with perfect hatred; they have become my enemies. [23] Search
me thoroughly, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts!
[24] And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way
everlasting.
but there aren't systems to place to adequately care for many of these people. And I don't think there ever will be...sad as it is to say. Some palliative care options are fantastic at providing support to all parties involved, but that isn't the norm. So I guess in a way you're right: much of choosing assisted suicide as a personal option does stem from fear of some sort. It is actually kind of ironic that the only thing the party choosing that option isn't terrified of, is dying.

I just dont see it as the government reducing human life to mean next to nothing.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#39
but there aren't systems to place to adequately care for many of these people. And I don't think there ever will be...sad as it is to say. Some palliative care options are fantastic at providing support to all parties involved, but that isn't the norm. So I guess in a way you're right: much of choosing assisted suicide as a personal option does stem from fear of some sort. It is actually kind of ironic that the only thing the party choosing that option isn't terrified of, is dying.

I just dont see it as the government reducing human life to mean next to nothing.
The study of suicide in veterans has shown that there really are only two causes that mujst come together in the victim's mind almost simultaneously that actually lead to suicide, or a suicide attempt. They are Perceived Burdensomeness and Thwarted Belongingness.

That is research done by Thomas Joiner, who is now at the University of Texas School of Research Psychology. His work is outstanding, and points to the fact that no one should be allowed to choose death over life when there is hope. And there is always hope.