Heaven and the Garden of Eden

[BlackApologist24]

I've been thinking about this question for a while. Its a 3 part question:

1) Will human beings have free will in heaven?

2) Will there be sin in heaven? ( yes, I know the answer but answer it anyways)

3) If there is such a place where there is free will and no sin, Why didn't God create it in the first place?

 

[MaggieMye]

1) Will human beings have free will in heaven? We can't even GET to heaven without our will lining up with His. Because of who He is, it will be our will to do His will, to praise and worship and commune with Him forever.

2) Will there be sin in heaven? ( yes, I know the answer but answer it anyways) No. If you know, why ask?

3) If there is such a place where there is free will and no sin, Why didn't God create it in the first place? As a home for us for eternity. There will be no sin in heaven. We will not have the option to sin because ALL that is in heaven is HOLY....and that will include all that 'make the cut' as part of the perfected Bride.

 

[BlackApologist24]

"We can't even GET to heaven without our will lining up with His. Because of who He is, it will be our will to do His will, to praise and worship and commune with Him forever."

So thats a yes,right?

"Will there be sin in heaven? ( yes, I know the answer but answer it anyways) No. If you know, why ask?"
There was point to me asking that question. all three goes together


" As a home for us for eternity. There will be no sin in heaven. We will not have the option to sin because ALL that is in heaven is HOLY....and that will include all that 'make the cut' as part of the perfected Bride."

I think you completely missed the point of the last question. If there is such a place where there is freewill and no sin exist (heaven) then Why did God not create a world with the same conditions for Adam and Eve (The Garden)?

 

[trust_in_the_name]

I've been thinking about this question for a while. Its a 3 part question:

1) Will human beings have free will in heaven?

2) Will there be sin in heaven? ( yes, I know the answer but answer it anyways)

3) If there is such a place where there is free will and no sin, Why didn't God create it in the first place?

This assumes that people have free will in the first place, and that free will is a good thing. However, the Bible teaches over and over that people do not have free will, at least, not apart from the sovereignty of God. People do choose good or evil, and God rightly judges them for it, but nonetheless God is in control (Psalm 104).

33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord. (Proverbs 16:33)

People like to think they have free will, they plan their way, but the way of man is not in himself, his plans are in vain for it is the Lord that directs his steps.

9 A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

23 O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps. (Jeremiah 10:23)

24 A man's steps are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

He does all our works in us.

12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, For You have also done all our works in us. (Isaiah 26:12)

Being born again is not of the will of man, but of God.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)

Nothing that anyone says ever comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it.

37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed? (Lamentations 3:37-38)

If there is calamity in a city, man-made or otherwise, the Lord has done it.

6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it? (Amos 3:6)

So then it is not of him who wills but God who shows mercy.

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Romans 9:16)

All things are of Him and through Him and to Him.

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

The Lord makes people stray from His ways, and He hardens their heart from His fear.

17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:7)

11 Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.' " (2 Samuel 12:11-12)

25 He turned their heart to hate His people, To deal craftily with His servants. (Psalm 105:25)

He causes them to err.

27 Behold, the name of the Lord comes from afar, Burning with His anger, And His burden is heavy; His lips are full of indignation, And His tongue like a devouring fire. 28 His breath is like an overflowing stream, Which reaches up to the neck, To sift the nations with the sieve of futility; And there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, Causing them to err. (Isaiah 30:27-28)

9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege and in the desperation with which their enemies and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair." ' (Jeremiah 19:9)

David knew that God could, if He desired, incline his heart to evil.

4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice wicked works With men who work iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies. (Psalm 141:4)

Despite this prayer, the Lord nevertheless did incline his heart to evil.

1 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)

In giving this order, it says David sinned.

10 And David's heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly." (2 Samuel 24:10)

Who caused him to give the order? The Lord "moved David."

The builders (religious leaders) were appointed to be disobedient to the word. Appointed by whom? By God (Romans 11:36).

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:7-8)

God has committed everyone to disobedience and confined all under sin. The wicked go astray as soon as they are born, and He made them for the day of doom.

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Romans 11:32)

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (Galatians 3:22)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. (Psalm 58:3)

4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. (Proverbs 16:4)

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (Romans 1:28)

Nonetheless, even if we were to presume that there is some sort of free will, we still could not presume to know the mind of God.

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)

28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, The Creator of the ends of the earth, Neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28)

Therefore we should:

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)

 

[trust_in_the_name]

However, to answer your question a bit more directly, look at Romans 9.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? (Romans 9:10-21)

And, here is the answer. God wanted to show His wrath and make His power known, and make known the riches of His glory.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:22-24)

 

[wakeup]

I've been thinking about this question for a while. Its a 3 part question:

1) Will human beings have free will in heaven?

2) Will there be sin in heaven? ( yes, I know the answer but answer it anyways)

3) If there is such a place where there is free will and no sin, Why didn't God create it in the first place?

god wants his children to be like him, knowing good and evil. and to really know what is evil is to
go trough it, to experience it. we must experience evil to the maximum, then evil itself will be destroyed. but at the same time god is teaching us to do good,so we know what is good and what is
evil by experience. god does not create robots , he is giving us a choice,you must decide for your self.
no one goes to heaven ,he will prepare a place for us on earth, it is called the kingdom of god on earth.
not in heaven like what you have been told, its not true.by this time evil would have been destroyed.
no more evil, its gone for good. this was the whole plan. so chose good and not evil.
satan that causes all evil will be destroyed and all that follow him to do evil things.
so follow christs teachings and he will accept you in the kingdom.

wakeup.

 

[BlackApologist24]

I don't feel anyone really answered this question. I guess I'll leave it at that then

 

[zone]

3) If there is such a place where there is free will and no sin, Why didn't God create it in the first place?

we are simply not told why God permitted Adam to fall.

we are told He is working all things for our good.

Matthew 25:34
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

 

[resurrection33]

I've been thinking about this question for a while. Its a 3 part question:

1) Will human beings have free will in heaven?

2) Will there be sin in heaven? ( yes, I know the answer but answer it anyways)

3) If there is such a place where there is free will and no sin, Why didn't God create it in the first place?

I believe heaven is what happens to us when we turn from our sin:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

1. We will always have free will, but when we sin, life becomes nightmarish, and when we turn from our sin, life becomes bliss.

2. Heaven is peace of mind. You lose your peace of mind when you sin.

3.) The Lord expects us to put forth the effort to refrain from sin.

 

[dmdave17]

I think that the answer to this "trick" question is found in Jeremiah, verses 26 & 27, "Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 'I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?'" God did it this way because He wanted to do it this way. And if that answer doesn't suffice, my next response would be "But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” (Romans 9:20) And finally, I might be tempted to throw in Isaiah 45:11, “This is what the LORD says—the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: 'Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?'"

Any further questions?

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I've been thinking about this question for a while. Its a 3 part question:

1) Will human beings have free will in heaven?

2) Will there be sin in heaven? ( yes, I know the answer but answer it anyways)

3) If there is such a place where there is free will and no sin, Why didn't God create it in the first place?

1) Yes.

2) No.

3) Not sure about specifics, but as a matter of principle we know that God does all things for his glory and the good of the elect. Some apologists have put forth various arguments here. Such as, (a quick sketch) a world with redemption is better than a world without redemption. So God chose a world with redemption. The support for this might look something like the following: "Jesus said no greater love is there than one in which a man lays down his life for his friends. So a world requiring God to manifest the greatest love is better than one in which the greatest love never manifests itself. This type of world requires something like redemption. Redemption requires sin (something to be redeemed from)."

Later, in response to another poster, you say:

I think you completely missed the point of the last question. If there is such a place where there is freewill and no sin exist (heaven) then Why did God not create a world with the same conditions for Adam and Eve (The Garden)?

There are different theories of free will. I think the answer I gave for (3) above can be used by all the theories (libertarians and compatibilists of different flavors). However, libertarians will say that free will does require a world in which sin is at least possible. And so they may give this answer for number 3. They would say "God could not create a world with free will and guarantee that there is no sin." Given the way they define "free will," such a state of affairs becomes logically impossible. However, they could still answer "yes" and "no" to questions 1 and 2, respectively. This is because some libertarians (e.g. Robert Kane) hold to "self-forming actions" which "set" the agent's character, such that subsequent decisions (relevant to the character formed by the SFA) become fixed by the agent. So God may bring it about that Christians "fix" their character through SFAs by the time they reach heaven (or upon the "beatific vision"), but this still requires that there be a prior state in which the agent can can sin.