help me with bible study

[jonathanbchristian]

i am doing a bible study today on salvation by faith, which is what i did it on last week too. i want to go more in depth using ephesians 2:9. so i thought i would start a thread on the topic of salvation by faith to get some other perspectives. the one thing i thought of to say is "if we could be saved by our own works then why did jesus have to die?"

 

[Crossfire]

i am doing a bible study today on salvation by faith, which is what i did it on last week too. i want to go more in depth using ephesians 2:9. so i thought i would start a thread on the topic of salvation by faith to get some other perspectives. the one thing i thought of to say is "if we could be saved by our own works then why did jesus have to die?"

Basically there are two extremes in Christianity and neither are right. The first you already mentioned, it is the idea that a person can somehow work their way into heaven which of course is a falsehood. The second is the opposite extreme, it is the idea that once I'm saved I free to sin because God ignores my sin. The bible teaches no such thing, in fact, it teaches just the opposite.

As a potential minister, our job s to not only understand both extremes, but also be able to understand and explain biblical truth.

 

[mmlj29]

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


But the beauty of the bible is that it forces us to be balanced....

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

And here are the commandments....

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

i am doing a bible study today on salvation by faith, which is what i did it on last week too. i want to go more in depth using ephesians 2:9. so i thought i would start a thread on the topic of salvation by faith to get some other perspectives. the one thing i thought of to say is "if we could be saved by our own works then why did jesus have to die?"

Not of works of the law are you saved, but by an obedient faith working in love! Galations 5-6

It’s Not of Works!​

Jesus Never said, ‘It’s Not of Works!’ In fact He told many who inquired about eternal life to KEEP the Commandments and Obey His Word. The Only Condition He set forth to enter the Kingdom was Repentance and Faith PROVEN by DEEDS! Without a doubt THIS is the Gospel of our Lord. Those who immediately followed Him over the next Century Preached the exact SAME Message and NEVER veered off the Straight and Narrow Path He had placed before them.

However over the next 1600 odd years MUCH has changed. Today the Churches teach people to Disobey God. Although the Pastors would passionately deny it, the evidence is overwhelming against them. Tradition and the Doctrines of men have been blended into the simple Message of Christ and have cast diversions on His teaching.
Currently everything He said has been brought into question by the self-appointed Bible Scholars. They go to great lengths to explain away His Commands and Warnings by writing reams of explanations trying to reconcile their ‘Message’ with His. Nevertheless it all boils down to a Reversal of Truth! Jesus says: ‘Go and Sin no More!’
They say: ‘No one can ever Stop sinning.’ Who’s Correct?

If the difficulty was merely a lack of sincerity on their part and willingness to twist the Scriptures, it would be easy to expose them as the false teachers they are. But it goes much deeper than that. MOST of them are 100% Sincere about what they believe and just as confident that the Apostles they are quoting taught the same things. You could easily accuse them at this point of intellectual dishonesty for ignoring the facts and refusing to look beyond such teachers as Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, ect. In many ways Western Christianity especially considers any deviation from Reformed theology heresy. Therefore nearly everything back to ancient times is in question. (according to them) It’s a very powerful deception with deeply ingrained roots and only a FEW have been able to find their way onto the Narrow Path.

Certainly Christ made it immensely Clear that His Message was exclusive to the FEW who would STRIVE to enter that Narrow Gate. He Promised His followers they would be hated by the world and even their own family members would hang them over to death for preaching the Truth! He said if you were not Worthy of this disdain you were not FIT for the Kingdom. Believing in Him meant suffering the contempt of the world (especially the religious world) You followed in His Steps, imitating His example of humility and moral courage. And final Judgment would be according to your DEEDS done in Faith. The Reward being Eternal Life, not ‘things!’ (Read Rev22:11-14)

But this is where the Church has parted ways with Christ. They’ve taken the ‘not of works’ passage, Eph2:8-9 and made that their Gospel. As though a Faith WORKING by love is not part of the equation. To them ANY Effort is Works and trying to earn your Salvation rather than Trusting it’s all a done deal you must accept. This naturally includes any effort to Stop sinning. Accordingly the theology behind this idea MUST embrace a System that assigns man to a ‘depraved’ state in which he is unable to Obey God or DO anything Good without the assistance of the Holy Spirit. Thus he is ‘Saved in his sins’ On that they agree unanimously. In their Minds this honors God because it takes man out of the picture entirely and gives all the Glory to Christ. However the huge dilemma they face is explaining why the ‘Saved’ person remains a Chief wretch for the remainder of his life when it’s God’s responsibility to Clean him up by empowering him with the Spirit and changing his desires.

Here is where the mass confusion and contradictions in their theology become apparent. ‘You shouldn’t sin, God is going to change your desires so you wont’ want to sin. BUT you will always sin because its just part of your inborn nature.’ Since Salvation is ‘Not of Works’ any effort you put forth to stop sinning is brought into question of trying to earn your way into heaven. So it’s a stalemate; You Can’t ‘Work’ for your Salvation, but your constantly being told that God is going to Clean you up and change your evil desires to good desires. Thus because of the lack of progress you begin to wonder and doubt whether you were ever really Saved to begin with. The Pastors will assure you there’s nothing to worry about and that God isn’t finished with you yet, but the facts remain. You either have to accept the fact that sinning all them time is the normal Christian experience, or start digging into the Scriptures yourself and finding out WHAT went Wrong with the whole process of Salvation.

In the Bible there’s the ‘Works’ of the law and the ‘Works’ or Deeds of Faith. When Christ says he who hears the Word of God and DOES it, he is speaking of a working faith. When another passage says, ‘Its not of works lest anyone boast’, it’s speaking of the works of the law. (Traditions, rituals, Doctrines of men) The ‘Boast’ is aimed at the Religious hypocrites who put their confidence in the ceremonial law and NOT in the Deeds of Faith! (Rom2:17,23) Jesus told these same people that if they were truly children of Father Abraham they would DO what he DID! (Jh8:39) Which is OBEY God. (Heb11:6)

Your Pastors are NEVER going to tell you this! The very mention of Works or Deeds is Taboo to them. They will anathemize anyone who insists that Repentance and Faith Must be Proven by Deeds.
You Have got to be Saved first and filled with Holy Spirit before you can Repent or DO anything acceptable to God.
Somehow they See this in the Scriptures and equate it with what the Message of Jesus. Where He said Deny yourself take up your Cross and follow Me, they will say; Confess, Trust and Receive. They see Christ through their theological lens and cannot imagine that He meant anything more than ‘Believe’ and be Saved. But after this it gets sticky. Some of them will insist on the evidence of a ‘changed life’ or at least an effort to make a change, if the person is really saved. Although in the same breath they will also assert the absolute necessity of ‘Faith Alone’ for initial Salvation to take place.

When asked if the Person seeking Salvation must Stop any particular sin or make a genuine effort to change their conduct, the answer is always NO! God will change them later, after they are Saved and filled with the Spirit. Since they can’t in right conscience argue in favor of sin, many of them will play the ‘Never saved to begin with’ card, if the person is still obviously in their rebellion. However they will ALL Say that initial Salvation does NOT depend on the Person Doing anything except ‘Trusting’ in Christ and apologizing for being a sinner. Because the one thing EVERYONE in the Church System agrees on is that; ‘You can NEVER Stop Sinning.’

Therefore any effort on Man’s part in the process of Salvation is constituted as ‘Works’ and an attempt to ‘Save yourself’. Even the ‘Works’ of Faith are anathema. So DOING anything is OUT of the question! Which puts the present day Salvation Plan at extreme odds with the Message of Christ. There is absolutely Nothing in the pages of Scripture to support the ‘Receive Jesus’ invitation; OR that suggests you can be ‘Saved’ in your sins. Certainly anyone can isolate a particular passage and make a case of ‘Just Believe’, they do it all the time. It Unquestionably tickles the ears of the hearers and cuddles them in their sin. Plus it’s user friendly and makes the message of Christianity more acceptable to the world at large. Why do you think there are so many Mega Churches today and millionaire pastors? If these Ministers were Preaching the Message of Christ and calling people out of their sins and to an Obedient Faith proven by Deeds they would be unknown and despised by the world.

The problem is these Church Pastors and Scholars cannot see beyond their theological perspective. To them the Gospel has to fall within their sphere of understanding. Anything in opposition to their confessions of faith is rejected as unorthodox. The Hard Sayings of Jesus are nothing more than object lessons open to various interpretations when applied to the overall Gospel Message. They are NOT Doctrine. The DOING and Obedience are always secondary to Believe and Accept. Therefore it isn’t mandatory to: Strive, Dig, Keep, Watch, Build or Take up anything to enter the Kingdom. That’s why it’s only spoken of in the abstract.

Christ set forth these things as Conditions by which a person could be Reconciled to God and Cleansed of his former sins. There was NEVER a Promise of some kind of Magic Imputation of His Nature credited to them. Nor did He ever indicate that future sins would be automatically forgiven because of the Cross. His Death was on their behalf as a fulfillment of Prophecy, NOT a Substitution to satisfy the Wrath of God in their place. By Example He Trimpuphed over the Powers of Darkness, Destroyed the works of the Devil and released the chains of bondage

 

[SpaceCowboy]

It seems to me like faith in Christ is the most extreme double edged sword. With true faith in Christ we accecpt and realize that nothing we do, have done, or will ever do makes any difference in our salvation whatsoever. It's a wonderful feeling to be free from yourself, to live a life IN Christ. But in doing so we open up every aspect of our life, so that the grace that's extended to us may be shown and help others, so we must be totally secure in Christ and not on the defensive about hiding anything. It's all paid for. So to live in Christ it takes total humility and grace. Without it our faith turns into a cloak for maliciousness.