I may be called a heretic for this, but...

[Ramon]

A MAN CAN BE PERFECT!!!

Certainly. A man can be perfect. Is this perfectionism? I don't do isms, but I know I read, ''Be perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect.''

And so, I tried, and failed. Yes, ''I'' tried, and failed. So I said, Lord, those commands are too many, I cannot keep them all. How could I ever be like you, I know you kept them ALL perfectly.

Then the Lord had mercy on me, and forgave me of my sins. And he said, ''take up your cross and follow me.'' Jesus wasn't dead carrying his cross, it was only when he was nailed to the cross that his flesh died. Where are we carrying our cross to? We are carrying our cross to Calvary also, so that we can be crucified with Jesus Christ. And there is also the same hope of resurrection from the dead. If the same Spirit is in you which was in Christ, that same Spirit will raise you also from the dead.

May his will be done in heaven, as it is in earth. To keep us from temptation and deliver us from evil, for his glory and honor and power!! AMEN!!

It is Christ who works IN YOU, to shape you into that image. So as Jesus works, those who have Him, IN them cease from work. They enter into his rest, into that door of rest.

If a man chooses, and I do say CHOOSES to not bear his cross, but to look back to Sodom, he is not fit.

BE PERFECT AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT

May Jesus bless you.

 

[Tobby17]

Ramon, believe me, you are NOT a heretic...

I see true loyalty to God in your threads, i see a God knowing heart that is hungry for me, i see somebody who has a burning passion for God that can never be satisfied and always thirsting for more.. Ramon, watch out, really..

Your Spiritual life is about to explode.God is taking you to the next level of the EXCEEDINGLY GREAT..He's drawing nearer to you as you draw nearer to him.. Don't listen and do not mind what anybody says or thinks about you..

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 (NASB).

 

[resurrection33]

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 (NASB).

We have all sinned, but the Lord has commanded us to stop.

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

To be honest sir, perfectionism is a heretical doctrine when defining heresy as:

*Heresy- unorthodox religious belief; belief or idea which is in opposition to an established view.

Essentially, you are saying that since man can be perfect the fallen nature within man is only a semblance of reality, and is not meant to be interpreted as man actually having a fallen nature, in fact. If you are saying that man can attain perfection in the physical member (body), the sacrifice of Christ is only needed up until that point. Furthermore, you are declaring that by works one can 'earn' this state of being simply by choosing. To be frank, this belief is quite dangerous and can breed narcissism, and lead to prideful ambitions and ultimately autonomy in relationship to God. I'm not questioning your salvation or anything but I am concerned about this doctrine that you seem to promulgate and is kin to Pelegianism. One classical maxim that I frequently think of is this, "If it seeks to elevate mankind it is almost certainly bad."

Scripture:

[Romans 7:24- Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?]

[Job 14:4- Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.]

 

[Ramon]

To be honest sir, perfectionism is a heretical doctrine when defining heresy as:

*Heresy- unorthodox religious belief; belief or idea which is in opposition to an established view.

Essentially, you are saying that since man can be perfect the fallen nature within man is only a semblance of reality, and is not meant to be interpreted as man actually having a fallen nature, in fact. If you are saying that man can attain perfection in the physical member (body), the sacrifice of Christ is only needed up until that point. Furthermore, you are declaring that by works one can 'earn' this state of being simply by choosing. To be frank, this belief is quite dangerous and can breed narcissism, and lead to prideful ambitions and ultimately autonomy in relationship to God. I'm not questioning your salvation or anything but I am concerned about this doctrine that you seem to promulgate and is kin to Pelegianism. One classical maxim that I frequently think of is this, "If it seeks to elevate mankind it is almost certainly bad."

Scripture:

[Romans 7:24- Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?]

[Job 14:4- Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.]

Sure, this is might be dangerous, but Jesus was put into many dangerous positions.

Again, I don't do isms. Jesus Christ is the one who works, not me. I don't elevate myself, neither do I glorify myself. I glorify Jesus Christ. I glorify his work, that I am SURE he can perform. They called Jesus a heretic because they said he likened himself to God, which he had no reason to be ashamed to do, in that he said he was a the Son of God.

If I say that the Lord God will also make me a son of God, surely, many might also call that heresy. But that right to become sons is not by my will but by the will of God.

To answer those questions. Jesus will deliver me from this body of death. And whoever Jesus calls clean, NO MAN can call unclean.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

Sure, this is might be dangerous, but Jesus was put into many dangerous positions.

Again, I don't do isms. Jesus Christ is the one who works, not me. I don't elevate myself, neither do I glorify myself. I glorify Jesus Christ. I glorify his work, that I am SURE he can perform. They called Jesus a heretic because they said he likened himself to God, which he had no reason to be ashamed to do, in that he said he was a the Son of God.

If I say that the Lord God will also make me a son of God, surely, many might also call that heresy. But that right to become sons is not by my will but by the will of God.

To answer those questions. Jesus will deliver me from this body of death. And whoever Jesus calls clean, NO MAN can call unclean.

May Jesus bless you.

I believe that you have confused the perfecting work of sanctification -which is produced by the Spirit of God, not by man- with a works based attainment of some perfect state that one can achieve on earth. In your OP you frequently mention, "I try and I fail, I try and I fail..."

[Philippians 2:13- for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.]

Now you might have a question concerning this verse, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," Philippians 2:12. This verse is simply saying that we should continue to express our salvation in an ongoing process in which the believer is strenuously involved. Allow the salvation that is present within you to be made manifest. Remember, Paul is exhorting Christians to be lights in the world [Philippians 2:15]. We are to express our salvation with fear and trembling in the sense that our expression should be in a way that we reverence God with humility in response to God's grace.
​

 

[Ramon]

I believe that you have confused the perfecting work of sanctification -which is produced by the Spirit of God, not by man- with a works based attainment of some perfect state that one can achieve on earth. In your OP you frequently mention, "I try and I fail, I try and I fail..."

[Philippians 2:13- for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.]

Now you might have a question concerning this verse, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," Philippians 2:12. This verse is simply saying that we should continue to express our salvation in an ongoing process in which the believer is strenuously involved. Allow the salvation that is present within you to be made manifest. Remember, Paul is exhorting Christians to be lights in the world [Philippians 2:15]. We are to express our salvation with fear and trembling in the sense that our expression should be in a way that we reverence God with humility in response to God's grace.
​

''But that right to become sons is not by my will but by the will of God.''

Philippians 2:13- for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Sounds about right.

Yes, I tried and failed, and then, ''I'' tried and failed.

Yes, by my own work I could not keep it, so I said, Lord, I cannot keep those commands, they are too many!''' Jesus washed away my sins, and said, FOLLOW ME!!

Now, he said, take up your cross and follow me!!

You say I say it is my work, but it is Christ's work in me that shapes me into his image. And by his will, I WILL be shaped into his image.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

''But that right to become sons is not by my will but by the will of God.''

Philippians 2:13- for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Sounds about right.

Yes, I tried and failed, and then, ''I'' tried and failed.

Yes, by my own work I could not keep it, so I said, Lord, I cannot keep those commands, they are too many!''' Jesus washed away my sins, and said, FOLLOW ME!!

Now, he said, take up your cross and follow me!!

You say I say it is my work, but it is Christ's work in me that shapes me into his image. And by his will, I WILL be shaped into his image.

May Jesus bless you.

OK I get where you are coming from but it was just a little hazy in the beginning. As long as one doesn't believe that they can obtain sinless perfection in the flesh. I would have worded it as 'imputed righteousness' instead of perfection. In this life we cannot ascend to perfection yet, this comes later.

 

[Ramon]

OK I get where you are coming from but it was just a little hazy in the beginning. As long as one doesn't believe that they can obtain sinless perfection in the flesh. I would have worded it as 'imputed righteousness' instead of perfection. In this life we cannot ascend to perfection yet, this comes later.

This might be where we disagree. In this life we can be perfect, even in this body.

Maybe it is the word flesh that we are speaking about.

One of the first things the Lord showed me was who I was, and who he is, and what he desires me to be.

He showed me that I am not my not my body, but I am in my body, and that, before I knew him, I was subjected to what my body desired, and not to what he desired for me.

Then he showed me that he is Spirit, and that nothing I do with my body can please him. And that all that I had done before him was please my body.

And then he showed me that he desires me to be like him. And that this is how everyone ought to worship him.

So, there was an old nature and there is a new nature. The new nature is a perfect nature that pleases God, which is wrought by the Spirit of God in them that have that witness of the gospel in them.

I cannot say I have that perfect nature in me yet. If Jesus was in me I would never sin. Sure, he gives of his Spirit to guide me into all truth, and this was the issue Paul was writing about. This is why he says he presses toward the high mark. This is how he walks the narrow path.

It is Christ who works, and I am subject to his work. My flesh cannot please God, but I have faith that what God began he will finish in me.

Yes, a man can be perfect, not by his own will, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[yaright]

You've shared a strong witness Ramon. Jesus said, "Your faith has made you clean." Do not back away from this witness. You will hear argument from the religions of men; but Jesus has kept His Promise.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Yes He has and Ramon's post that started off this thread was good. We are perfected in Christ but not perfect (at least here on earth). Peace.

We have all sinned, but the Lord has commanded us to stop.

 

[yaright]

Yes He has and Ramon's post that started off this thread was good. We are perfected in Christ but not perfect (at least here on earth). Peace.

Amen! The first disciples who first followed Jesus, made many errors that today many would call heresy. But because they followed Jesus by their faith in Him, Jesus continued the work of perfecting in them, just as He does to this day in the lives of those who follow Him by faith. In the beginning of our walk with Jesus, it is well known, and written, that we thought and did things with a carnal mind, This is not heresy; it is part of the over all walk with Jesus.

 

[Muskokaman]

This might be where we disagree. In this life we can be perfect, even in this body.

Maybe it is the word flesh that we are speaking about.

One of the first things the Lord showed me was who I was, and who he is, and what he desires me to be.

He showed me that I am not my not my body, but I am in my body, and that, before I knew him, I was subjected to what my body desired, and not to what he desired for me.

Then he showed me that he is Spirit, and that nothing I do with my body can please him. And that all that I had done before him was please my body.

And then he showed me that he desires me to be like him. And that this is how everyone ought to worship him.

So, there was an old nature and there is a new nature. The new nature is a perfect nature that pleases God, which is wrought by the Spirit of God in them that have that witness of the gospel in them.

I cannot say I have that perfect nature in me yet. If Jesus was in me I would never sin. Sure, he gives of his Spirit to guide me into all truth, and this was the issue Paul was writing about. This is why he says he presses toward the high mark. This is how he walks the narrow path.

It is Christ who works, and I am subject to his work. My flesh cannot please God, but I have faith that what God began he will finish in me.

Yes, a man can be perfect, not by his own will, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ.

May Jesus bless you.

We cannot be perfect because of original sin even if we tried the hardest any man has ever tried we would never be perfect. It is the strive for perfection that tests the metal in the crucible and seperates the wheat from the chaff. Perfection though will never be attained in the flesh only in the spirit.

 

[yaright]

We cannot be perfect because of original sin even if we tried the hardest any man has ever tried we would never be perfect. It is the strive for perfection that tests the metal in the crucible and seperates the wheat from the chaff. Perfection though will never be attained in the flesh only in the spirit.

Jesus said that no one can remove His followers from His hand, and His Father who gave these into Christ's hand, no one can remove them from His hand.

There is no one who can place doubt in my mind concerning this exacting Truth, a promise and the Seed given to those who follow by faith.

The reason I'm pressing this has to do with the careless teaching of some who speak against those who are new in Christ; Causing many young in Christ to doubt their Salvation because some hold their imperfection against them, even though they have been given into the hands of our Redeemer. It is written that our sins are no more remembered, "As far as the East is from the West" The first disciples said and did many things according to the things which seemed right to them ( of a carnal mind) according to the ways of the flesh. In each and every case, Jesus corrected them, and He did not condemn.