If someone knowingly chooses to believe false doctrine,
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Lol in a semantic sense a heresy is a doctrine contrary to the orthodoxy. In the context of Christianity, any false doctrine is a heresy, they are literally one and the same. That's why the most pernicious heresies, aka the damnable heresies are anything that attacks the main true doctrinal pillars of Christianity which are the trinity doctrine or the key essential points of the gospel of Jesus. All heresy is a false doctrine, but some false doctrines are bigger and more wicked lies than others, some of the lessers ones are just even simple mistakes or misunderstandings, this is element of pernicion. Obstinacy then is more about the individual and their reception of the truth and likeliness to discard false doctrines and embrace the truth regardless of the severity of the lies, if you will the Christianese term, to circumicize their heart or harden it as hard as the Pharaoh.
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Indeed any lie or error is bad but the degree to which they are bad is not the same. I am not sure what you refer to here about the rapture and will have to go back and read maybe I missed something I have not read the whole topic. To use an example though to make the point about penicion. Say we have two heresy revolving around the topic of the rapture. One is a heresy about the rapture that states that like the rapture will happen tomorrow if you give pastor Bob 20 bucks. It's still bad and is a heresy though because obviously it's going to lead to you joining the cult of Bob and getting defrauded and plodding down a pathway that will accumulates more sins and heresies. Now say for example a heresy about the rapture that is so loopy it goes to the degree that it attacks, undermines, or outright denies the second coming of Jesus, a key point in the Gospel, and instead states that it's Pastor Bob that's going to come again and rapture everyone and that where the Bible says Jesus is coming back they made an error in millennia of tradition, the writers actually meant Bob (and if this sounds absurdist to you, actually many cults have basically run this exact script). For falling for the Bob's rapture scam heresy it's bad still, but it's you're getting scammed however long you want to get run through the ringer is up to your obstinacy at that point. The second coming of Bob rapture heresy is more pernicious and would be judged as certainly damnable for adhering to it by reason it denies a fundamental truth about God himself and a key point of the Gospel of Jesus to the point that it's almost just a wholly separate pagan religion, and basically the Second Coming of Bob adherent is basically be turning their back on God in favor of Bob and in truth Bob ain't gonna save em, only Jesus can do that.
Again, the damnable heresies all attack God basically, anything contrary to the trinity doctrine as best outlined in the Athanasian Creed or anything that attacks the key points of the Gospel of Jesus (virgin conception, birth, life and ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, ascencion and session, and promise to come again) are the damnable heresies. Holding to a heresy is bad regardless of the severity and will lead to the path of errors, but holding to a damnable heresy is a guarantee to the hellfire by reason that it's a direct attack or rejection of the only true God.
Again, the damnable heresies all attack God basically, anything contrary to the trinity doctrine as best outlined in the Athanasian Creed or anything that attacks the key points of the Gospel of Jesus (virgin conception, birth, life and ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, ascencion and session, and promise to come again) are the damnable heresies. Holding to a heresy is bad regardless of the severity and will lead to the path of errors, but holding to a damnable heresy is a guarantee to the hellfire by reason that it's a direct attack or rejection of the only true God.
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well what I mean about the rapture is only one of the beliefs about it is true the others false so if one believes the false one even in ignorance does it make it heresy? not to mention whichever one is true is based on interpretation and vise versa heresy is based on interpretation in this case
so I quoted that because it is a situational heresy the topic of the thread involves false doctrine though just be warned it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with @Intersection and is likely a bot anyways. but being the topic of false doctrine I refenced the four stances on the rapture because it is a tricky one, whichcever one is heresy or false doctrine is entirely based on the interpreter so that is why I asked if it made it heresy to believe one of these since each stance can be both proven and disproven depending on the interpretation of scripture
so I quoted that because it is a situational heresy the topic of the thread involves false doctrine though just be warned it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with @Intersection and is likely a bot anyways. but being the topic of false doctrine I refenced the four stances on the rapture because it is a tricky one, whichcever one is heresy or false doctrine is entirely based on the interpreter so that is why I asked if it made it heresy to believe one of these since each stance can be both proven and disproven depending on the interpretation of scripture
Yes in both a technical as well as in many cases very much literally and openly they would still be heretics and there are indeed many heresies and heretical cults and even outright pagan religions that revolve around the topic, and more widely eschatology as a more general subject. Thus in the judgment of heresy for the judgment to be true and objective and not subjective to intepretations, this is how the nuance then is determined, literally judged, by the two factors of the pernicion of the heresy itself and the obstinacy of the individual or group that espouses the heresy. Both are the key factors of judging heresy and heretics with pernicion well established to refer to the severity of the heresy and the severity being judged by how basically directly it attacks the pillars of truth which are the nature of God as summed up in the trinity doctrine, or elsewise the reality of Jesus the eternal Son of God and the truth of the canon Gospels and the key point events of those Gospels. Obstinacy then is somewhat overlooked in how fictional and fantastical some heresies and cults can be, but obstinacy is an important factor. Ignorance would be an indicator of low obstinacy, yes they're a heretic cause maybe they are born into a heretical cult, but they're more or less ignorant, they're not totally sold on the heresy or believe the heresy neccessarily. A high degree of obstinacy does require some degree of knowledge really rather than ignorance, it's they know to a degree the heresy is wrong and to a degree they do know what the truth actually is, but they stay with the heresy, the sorta emphasis on knowingly choosing to believe false doctrine part of the thread, that's the obstinacy factor.
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Sins such as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit are somewhat different than heresies. Heresies can and often do lead to sins such as blasphemy. This is part of again determining the pernicion factor. The damnable heresies are ranked damnable because they directly contradict the truth about God, since the Holy Spirit is also God and the doctrine of the trinity is critical Christian belief, it is not uncommon that damnable heresies which attack or are in contradiction to the holy doctrine of the trinity often have errors and sins like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, blasphemy of the Father, critical denials about Jesus and the Gospel, going beyond the realm of heresy into just straight paganism and worship of idols, doing witchcraft, so forth and so on. Thus further supporting proofs for the high level pernicion of those particular heresies and why they are essentially the damnable heresies.
It's not what I say that counts for that sin, but from my understanding it's to directly to attack the person of the holy trinity that is the Holy Spirit, basically it's literally what it's called, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. When personally here I mean personally like you have to have direct contact with the Holy Spirit and in the midst of contact you try to attack him or blaspheme him to his personal presence. It's a rare sin, and the topic is often fruitless to worry over too much, but it has happened, and I believe the result is if you do it, you'll die pretty immediately, like i'm talking you have less than 24 hours to live before you drop dead like Ananias and Sapphira. It's not something you can do by mistake, it's not something that will be unknown or secret, if you do it then God will kill you outright and openly make an example of you at that, so there is no question about it nor ambiguity.
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I need to stop coming back to this thread. Between @Intersections' hilarious screenshots and 5-star dedication to trolling & @SonJudgments' second coming of pastor Bob analogy, I am cracking up once again..... the subject of heresy ain't meant to be this funny guys, cut us a break! 🤣🤣😂
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Could be, only Father knows, and will show each in their mistakes made over a life time of things happening good and bad here, Therefore Love all, not a few, thank you and God will use you for others to see it is Love (God) that over came and over comes evil period, thanks.
I say this because I have gone through many errors and am still learning truth. Love turns people from errors. I have seen many turn myself as well, once this love is seen from God as given them these are new as born again new, and just can't harm others ever again, that I now see.
Not that I am good, yet, I have in past been a drunk over 40 years ago now. A womanizer, a Liar, a go getter for self gain, having no compassion for my fellow person as the Corinthians did, that Paul wrote to about the mis-using of grace given them
Having the thought "I am Forgiven" which is truth. yet to use that to get away with eating and drinking and carousing against others for self gain, as is, what did happen in the Corinth Church back then.
Hey, the thought was
"I" can do whatever I want, "I" am forgiven and remain forgiven, even if "I" sin again and so they did sin and harmed others, not caring, in thought they can do it and not have to care for anyone else but self desires, since are forgiven.
The Corinthian letters were written to them to get this mess straightened out. And it did that for some, they saw to not, take God for granted and or to continue to use being forgiven to take whatever they wanted here and now selfishly.
they repented as Paul points out in 2 Cor 7.
People view it as Law and it is Law. The only purpose of Law is not to have to do it, it is for me at least to see I need to do Law perfectly in love to all, and by that wanting to do that, I got to see I can't perfectly do it. I need a Savior, that be the risen Son Jesus for me willingly to get imputed this love of God revealed by Son who did not fight back in flesh at all. Amazing grace given to stand in
Loving this amazing grace trusting to get through it all, As I see that happens for all that will not quit, finally get imputed Faith over just belief Faith from God
Wow, thank you Father
I say this because I have gone through many errors and am still learning truth. Love turns people from errors. I have seen many turn myself as well, once this love is seen from God as given them these are new as born again new, and just can't harm others ever again, that I now see.
Not that I am good, yet, I have in past been a drunk over 40 years ago now. A womanizer, a Liar, a go getter for self gain, having no compassion for my fellow person as the Corinthians did, that Paul wrote to about the mis-using of grace given them
Having the thought "I am Forgiven" which is truth. yet to use that to get away with eating and drinking and carousing against others for self gain, as is, what did happen in the Corinth Church back then.
Hey, the thought was
"I" can do whatever I want, "I" am forgiven and remain forgiven, even if "I" sin again and so they did sin and harmed others, not caring, in thought they can do it and not have to care for anyone else but self desires, since are forgiven.
The Corinthian letters were written to them to get this mess straightened out. And it did that for some, they saw to not, take God for granted and or to continue to use being forgiven to take whatever they wanted here and now selfishly.
they repented as Paul points out in 2 Cor 7.
People view it as Law and it is Law. The only purpose of Law is not to have to do it, it is for me at least to see I need to do Law perfectly in love to all, and by that wanting to do that, I got to see I can't perfectly do it. I need a Savior, that be the risen Son Jesus for me willingly to get imputed this love of God revealed by Son who did not fight back in flesh at all. Amazing grace given to stand in
Loving this amazing grace trusting to get through it all, As I see that happens for all that will not quit, finally get imputed Faith over just belief Faith from God
Wow, thank you Father