If the flood wiped out their descendants, are their descendants still around?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

theflummoxed

Guest
#1
#1
Hi, I raised this question in a chat room and some people were giving feedback but I don't know if I understood them and also it was confusing in the chat room setting anyway. So here is a question that is BUGGING me:

In Genesis 4:20-21, it says that Jabal and Jubal are the ancestors of all those who live in tents and all those who play the lyre (respectively).

But later in Genesis 6-7, the flood kills everything and everyone outside the ark (right? or are there other views here? 7:21-23 seems pretty clear to me that everything outside the ark died, but I'm up for hearing alternative views).

I assume that Genesis 4:20-21 was written after the flood (bad assumption?).

So here's the question: Is there any meaningful sense in which these men, the two named individuals, are really the "ancestors" of those who live in tents and play the lyre?

(Also, they were of the line of Cain, not Seth, so it's not even like their descendants are preserved through Noah... or am I misunderstanding something?)

Isn't this a clear error in Scripture? Or is there some way to read this that I'm missing?

Anyway I can't find an answer to this one anywhere. I was getting sick of looking through all the different websites so I thought this might be more fruitful.

Someone in the chat room said that the flood story is a spiritual story - I just wasn't sure what that means. Someone else said something about how being a person's ancestor doesn't indicate a direct line, and so I think they were saying that in some way the ancestry of tent-dwellers and lyre-players can still go back to those two individuals. I'm interested in hearing more about that but I just wasn't sure how that would actually work.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. This is one of several "burning questions" I have about the Bible. I'm wrestling a lot with the doctrine of biblical inerrancy and so I'm trying to get at least my big questions worked out. Unless - does anyone think it's okay not to believe in inerrancy?

Thanks for the help.
 
G

grigio

Guest
#2
#2
Good question. I have no answer for this but now that youve brought it up I would like an answer also lol.
 
K

krisbrian

Guest
#3
#3
I dont really understand what the problem is? To me the answer is no, their descendants are not still around.
 
Saul_Durian

Saul_Durian

Banned
#4
Nov 10, 2011
607
6
0
#4
There are a few errors in the bible. People who say there are no mistakes in the bible are just being blind.

But that being said, it doesn't mean that the idea behind the scripture is flawed. Scripture may be inspired by God, but men wrote. And men are not perfect.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#5
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#5
theflummoxed said:
Hi, I raised this question in a chat room and some people were giving feedback but I don't know if I understood them and also it was confusing in the chat room setting anyway. So here is a question that is BUGGING me:

In Genesis 4:20-21, it says that Jabal and Jubal are the ancestors of all those who live in tents and all those who play the lyre (respectively).

But later in Genesis 6-7, the flood kills everything and everyone outside the ark (right? or are there other views here? 7:21-23 seems pretty clear to me that everything outside the ark died, but I'm up for hearing alternative views).

I assume that Genesis 4:20-21 was written after the flood (bad assumption?).

So here's the question: Is there any meaningful sense in which these men, the two named individuals, are really the "ancestors" of those who live in tents and play the lyre?

(Also, they were of the line of Cain, not Seth, so it's not even like their descendants are preserved through Noah... or am I misunderstanding something?)

Isn't this a clear error in Scripture? Or is there some way to read this that I'm missing?

Anyway I can't find an answer to this one anywhere. I was getting sick of looking through all the different websites so I thought this might be more fruitful.

Someone in the chat room said that the flood story is a spiritual story - I just wasn't sure what that means. Someone else said something about how being a person's ancestor doesn't indicate a direct line, and so I think they were saying that in some way the ancestry of tent-dwellers and lyre-players can still go back to those two individuals. I'm interested in hearing more about that but I just wasn't sure how that would actually work.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. This is one of several "burning questions" I have about the Bible. I'm wrestling a lot with the doctrine of biblical inerrancy and so I'm trying to get at least my big questions worked out. Unless - does anyone think it's okay not to believe in inerrancy?

Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
Only Noah and his family, and the wives of his sons, was saved during the flood, altogether eight people. The sons of Noah may have intermarried with daughters who were of bloodlines from people that perished in the flood.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#6
#6
here is the scripture being discussed...

genesis 4:19-22..."Lamech took to himself two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah. Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe. As for Zillah, she also gave birth to Tubal-cain, the forger of all implements of bronze and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah."

to me this isn't saying jabal and jubal were literally the ancestors of nomadic herders and musicians...

it is more like when people call gregor mendel the 'father of genetics' or when they call adam smith the 'father of economics'...

so this passage doesn't mean that all nomadic herders are literal descendants of jabal...it means that jabal invented the lifestyle of nomadic herding and that nomadic herders basically owe their lifestyle to him... and it doesn't mean that all musicians are literal descendants of jubal...it means that jubal invented musical instruments and that instrumental musicians owe their art to him
 
T

theflummoxed

Guest
#7
#7
I'll quick reply to two different posters:

I dont really understand what the problem is? To me the answer is no, their descendants are not still around.
Click to expand...
The problem (for the doctrine of biblical inerrancy) would be that the biblical writer, living after the flood, indicates in 4:20-21 that the descendants of Jubal and Jabal - who lived before the flood - are still around.

Only Noah and his family, and the wives of his sons, was saved during the flood, altogether eight people. The sons of Noah may have intermarried with daughters who were of bloodlines from people that perished in the flood.
Click to expand...
The daughters certainly would have had to come from bloodlines of people who perished in the flood, otherwise Noah's sons were married to Noah's daughters! But I think a major problem with this explanation is that bloodlines in the Bible are traced through male ancestry. The lines of Jabal and Jubal would have come to a screeching halt at the moment of the flood.
 
D

dishchat

Guest
#8
#8
It is through the daughters in law of Noah that the decendant of Caïn were transported like Eve transport th seed of satan to give birth to Caïn.
 
T

theflummoxed

Guest
#9
#9
RachelBibleStudent said:
it is more like when people call gregor mendel the 'father of genetics' or when they call adam smith the 'father of economics'...
Click to expand...
That's interesting. I'll have to think about it for a while.

My first reaction is that it seems like an ad hoc explanation. When did we start using "father" in that metaphorical sense?

But this seems like the right direction: Even in the inner logic of the text, it's not like Jabal's descendants and Jabal's descendants alone were supposed to be tent-dwellers, right?

Interesting. I'll have to move on to my other Bible questions now. Thanks.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#10
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#10
theflummoxed said:
...The daughters certainly would have had to come from bloodlines of people who perished in the flood, otherwise Noah's sons were married to Noah's daughters! But I think a major problem with this explanation is that bloodlines in the Bible are traced through male ancestry. The lines of Jabal and Jubal would have come to a screeching halt at the moment of the flood.
Click to expand...
Yeah, of course, mine was an understatement lol. And you're right about the patrilineal lineage in the Bible too. This said, the physical bloodlines of intermarriage will leave its mark regardless of how we trace them. Noah's sons intermarried and their offspring was mixed. I guess there's no other way to explain the presence, after the flood, of descendants of peoples who perished in same. The Bible says that "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generation" (Gen.6:9). The Bible doesn't say this about Noah's wife or Noah's sons' wives. For example Nimrod could be considered a descendant of Ham's wife. Nimrod was Ham's grandson.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.