Just because it sounds good, doesn't necessarily mean its from God

[roaringkitten]

Consider these verses:

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:6

The tree sounded good, appeared good, and was to be desired to make one wise! Except, Eve disobeyed God(Genesis 2:16-17). The serpent convinced Eve that it was all good, even though it was an act that had devastating consequences. Just because something is not clearly wicked, evil, satanic, etc does not mean that it is in accordance to God's approval!(Isaiah 8:20)

Read Matthew 16:13-23. Particularly to these parts:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." vs. 17

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." vs. 23

In vs 17 Peter had a revelation from God. Only 6 verses down Jesus rebukes him and addresses Satan who was speaking through Peter! Notice that Peter had good intentions because he loved the Lord and didn't want him to die. But he didn't speak according to God's will. You can have good intentions, but if you are not acting according to the Word, then it is wrong. Just because it looks right, feels right, seems right does not necessarily make it so(Proverbs 16:25).

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

satan often appears as a light(eg, Godly, good sounding doctrine, etc) which is why many will be deceived by him and his ministers of "righteousness". Many phonies speak like Christians, but inside they are ravenous wolves(Matthew 7:15). I want you to guess who said this quote:

[FONT=Arial, helvetica, geneva]"If we continue on this path, respectable, industrious and honest, if we fulfill our duty faithfully, it is my conviction, the Lord God will continually help us in the future. He will not leave respectable people in the lurch indefinitely. He may test them, but in the end He lets His sun shine upon them and gives them His blessing."[/FONT]

Sounds like something great preachers would say. Until you find out who said this- Adolf Hitler

Yes, anyone can sound Godly, speak like a Christian, but be a phony. My job is not to say, for example, that all Christian rock and roll singers are not Christian. Only God knows that. But they do produce works of darkness in their music.

"And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit." Mark 5:1-8

From this account, the man worshipped Jesus, and testified to a truth! But it didn't come from the Holy Spirit! it came from an unclean spirit!

"The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour." Acts 16:17-18

From this account, the words spoken were 100% Biblical! But they were from an unclean spirit.

While I am not trying to get you to be paranoid, I am warning the body of Christ, because, even satan knows Scripture very well and used it to tempt Jesus(Matthew 4:1-11) and I have tested many things with Scripture that do not hold which much of the modern day church is embracing!

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23

The Will of the Father is to believe in Jesus as the Savior for your sins(John 6:28-29, John 6:40). Notice these people in Matthew 7:21-23 were trying to BOAST about their good works and the Scriptures cannot be any clearer about our works having nothing to do with salvation(Ephesians 2:8-9). They did in fact, act Godly, but thought they bought their way into heaven by their works. Scripture is clear that it cant even be PARTLY by your works(Romans 11:6).

Notice also that it says "MANY will say to me in that day"...Not a few, but MANY will boast to God. Also notice that these people were NEVER saved to begin with. Jesus didn't say "I once knew you, but you were lost again"....He says he "never knew you" to these boasters.

I am not saying that if you are deceived about other matters in the faith that you are going to hell(eg:losing their salvation). I am saying, that there are MANY who have never trusted fully on Christ for salvation and were taught by their preachers/pastors that salvation is found through commitments to Christ for holy living(eg: good works). Holy living happens AS a Christian(Ephesians 2:10, 4:1; Romans 12:1-2, 2 Corinthians 5:15) not to get salvation. Those who have always even partly trusted in their works to save them are dead in their sins headed for the lake of fire sadly.

Just because someone says they are a Christian does not necessarily make them so. As I have written about in my threads from past, the deceit in the church is rampant today and many Christians could care less about exposing works of darkness in fear that they would lose their reputations.

"Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" Psalm 94:16

 

[eric51]

Quote from Roaring Kitten: The Will of the Father is to believe in Jesus as the Savior for your sins(John 6:28-29, John 6:40). Notice these people in Matthew 7:21-23 were trying to BOAST about their good works and the Scriptures cannot be any clearer about our works having nothing to do with salvation(Ephesians 2:8-9). They did in fact, act Godly, but thought they bought their way into heaven by their works. Scripture is clear that it cant even be PARTLY by your works(Romans 11:6).
______________________________________________________________________

My, my, when you are wrong, Roaring Kitten, you are WRONG. Scripture is perfectly clear that both faith AND works are both necessary to attain Justification. If, and only if, one dies justified in God's eyes, might one hope for eternal Salvation ]which, comes after God's Judgment]

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g.,clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works.

Rom. 3:29 - Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking "Or is God the God of the Jews only?" It does not mean "good works."

Rom. 4:9-17 - Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 - righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, "works of law" does not mean "good works."

Rom. 11:6,11 - justification is no longer based on "works" of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 3:20,28 - in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, "works of the law" can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us. Rom. 4:3-4 - Paul refers to works apart from God's grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.Rom. 6:23 – this is why Paul says the "wages" of sin is death. Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay us for our works; otherwise, we are in a system of law, not a system of grace.Rom. 11:35 - it is impossible to obligate God for payment, and sinful to think we can. We cannot do "works of the law" to obligate God. We are not in a debtor/creditor relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.

Gal. 2:19,21 - justification "through the law" means justification through the Mosaic law or a legal system that makes God a debtor to us. Gal. 2:19,21 - justification "through the law" means justification through the Mosaic law or a legal system that makes God a debtor to us. Gal. 3:10 – shows that "works of the law" refers to the "book of the law" which was the strict and impersonal Mosaic law of the Old Testament. Gal. 3:17 - this "law" came 430 years after Abraham. So "works of law" here clearly refer to the Mosaic law, not "good works."

Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of "works," lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the "works" of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works. This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.

Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul's teaching on "works" referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for "good works" - a clear distinction between "works of law" (Mosaic law/legal payment) and "good works" (law of Christ/reward of grace).

Eph. 2:11-16 - this section further explains Paul's reference to "works" which relates to following the Jewish legal ordinances.

 

[imoss]

great post roaring! Thank you.

 

[Densetzu]

Yes, anyone can sound Godly, speak like a Christian, but be a phony. My job is not to say, for example, that all Christian rock and roll singers are not Christian. Only God knows that. But they do produce works of darkness in their music.

That's an odd statement, can you give examples?

While I am not trying to get you to be paranoid, I am warning the body of Christ, because, even satan knows Scripture very well and used it to tempt Jesus(Matthew 4:1-11) and I have tested many things with Scripture that do not hold which much of the modern day church is embracing!

Again, examples would be nice. I agree that the modern church is embracing some unfortunate doctrines, but since you dont' specify what you're talking about it's hard to have a real discussion. For example, I disagree with the rabid literalism with which many pastors want to interpret the Bible (IE Genesis) as if the Bible was meant to be a science text.

The Will of the Father is to believe in Jesus as the Savior for your sins(John 6:28-29, John 6:40). Notice these people in Matthew 7:21-23 were trying to BOAST about their good works and the Scriptures cannot be any clearer about our works having nothing to do with salvation(Ephesians 2:8-9). They did in fact, act Godly, but thought they bought their way into heaven by their works. Scripture is clear that it cant even be PARTLY by your works(Romans 11:6).

Paul is clear, however James insists that works are integral. "Faith without works is dead."

Those who have always even partly trusted in their works to save them are dead in their sins headed for the lake of fire sadly.

That's not true, Biblically speaking. The only Bible author you could possibly get that idea from is Paul, and even then your're stretching his doctrine. And even Jesus taught that we will be judged for our good and evil deeds.

 

[wattie]

ya judged for our good works and deeds in giving out rewards.. not for whether we are in heaven or not. This is what seperates Christianity from religion.. works don have a bearing on our entrance to heaven.. only what rewards be given in heaven.

"Faith without works is dead" The oh so oft quoted verse.. context around it is not about eternal salvation.. but acts of righteous service from saved ones.. Abraham.. Rahab.. etc.. so faith without works is dead becomes.. not using your faith to help someone out.. to serve Jesus.. means it is dormant.. unused.

"He who endures to the end will be saved" Did you know that the context of this verse is about being delivered from persecution and trials? Saved as in rescued.. delivered.. not actually eternally saved?

anyway

I've tried to get people to look at the context of these verses and not many seem to care.

oh well

 

[Densetzu]

The context of James' writing is pretty clear.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

I'm not pretending I have a magic solution to this dilemma, I'm just pointing out that even in the early church, there was confusion. I don't do this to worry anyone, though... Rather I'm trying to show that not having perfect faith in the doctrine of 'justification by faith alone' isn't an unforgivable sin but an understandable point of questioning for any believer who wants to mature in their faith.

 

[imoss]

didnt notice the part about Christian music. I joy my Christian rock and worship cd's & feel the presence of the Lord... Judge it by its fruit.

 

[Thaddaeus]

I was thinking that the example for the opening post would be Women Pastors, everybody talks about how good of a ministry a woman pastor can have but is clearly not approved of through scriptures. like God says to women, before you I have put all ministries. but you are not to partake of the ministry of pastoring, for in the day you do you will surely displease me, but the woman saw the ministry, that it was good, and one to be desired.


1ti 3:1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.1ti 3:2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
But satan ( liberation comes along and says doth God say you can't Pastor) and the woman say yes, God hath said but I will do it anyhow, and I will do it better than any man ever has. now that is what comes to my mind when we hear of something that seems Godly but is not lined up with the Word of God.

 

[phil36]

I agree with imoss and Thaddaeus. and good post roaringkitten.

People get confused with the talk of works, do works save or is it by faith alone?

1. Good works will save no man.
2. A saved man will show good works (fruit of the spirit)

Although, both Paul and James talk about works they are talking about different situations.

Paul is adressing the issue that works will save no man

James is saying that good works will follow salvation, as saved by the mercy of God, you should want to do good.

Soli Deo Gloria

Phil