JUSTICE !

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M

Mitspa

Guest
#1
Im continually amazed at those who claimed to speak as representing the truth of Christ, yet seem to have very little understanding that God is a God of justice. "don't be deceived, whatsoever a man sows so shall he reap" ..."God gives grace to the humble but resist the proud" No one has the right to impute the grace of God to those God has put under the judgment of His Wrath...unless those people humble themselves to the truth of the Cross, in true repentance ..none of us have the biblical authority to impute the grace of God to the wicked or to the ungodly unless they submit to the Cross of Christ. Now can the Spirit of God work in our heart to minister compassion to others ...of course and I think that is the Divine Nature of God working in us to show a sinner Christ...but at no point does that Divine Nature and compassion deny Gods Justice. I have done prison ministry for years, and am amazed at Gods compassion for the worst folks in our society but there is one thing that I always have made clear... "If you continue to work evil, the God who loves you will set Himself against you" God loves the children and the elderly and our society enough to punish those who cause harm against them.

It is love to protect the innocent and weak from the wicked ...we see this truth at work throughout the whole of the New Testament ...God is a just God. God (Christ seated on the right Hand of God) killed people, to protect His Church. God upholds the use of the sword to punish evil doers. That's the bible !
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,602
113
#2
Is it legal/biblical/moral to take justice into our own hands, though? Like some rogue vigilantes do? Is it okay to go out and kill them because they offended us, or killed someone we love??
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#3
One distinction to make is that God is not justice. God IS love. His dealing with justice is always in line with who He really is. His justice is a manifestation of His great love for us.

As you say..God through our Lord Jesus has taken all the justice on Himself. Receive Him!

I think all justice/wrath/ell talks need to be centered around God's love for us.

here are some of my thoughts on it.



I'll start off with a quote from CS Lewis.

" The doors of hell are locked from the inside." If you are there it's because you chose it...Lewis says the damned are in a sense "successful rebels unto the end."...because hell is their own willful determination to live a selfish, independent existence from Love. People, not God choose hell.

Scripture seems to give men the liberty to pursue their own demand toward self-destruction.

Whatever hell is and to what degree it is populated - the question of utmost importance concerns the nature of the "goodness of God". I will argue that it is God's very Goodness. ..not His hatred for the person that actually tortures people in hell.

Vengeance is not wreaked on God's children, but on sin itself that is in man ( apart from those that have received Christ ) - because of what sin does to destroy mankind. His "wrath remains on those" who refuse to accept that wrath has already been removed. ( John 3:36 )

Ant biblical phrase regarding God's "vengeance" can ultimately interpreted no other way than the sowing and reaping people bring upon themselves by rejecting the mercy already given on the cross. God has already fully dealt with the sin issue on the cross. Yet, some refuse to accept His already given solution - demanding to hold onto a penalty that has already been absolved from His perspective.

If effect they are refusing the grace that is in Christ.

Mercy triumphs over judgment but it doesn't skirt it. The wrath of the Lamb is about wiping out a sin identity that justly demands to be destroyed and that He did destroy in His own death. The wrath of the Lamb is not that God is personally peeved at people.

But to those who refuse to believe...they have been judged and condemned already by the very fact of their refusal to believe in the non-judgment already pronounced!

The wrath of God/Lamb is a manifestation of the love of God. The refusal of the love of God is the very thing that will torment people in whatever hell turns out to look like. Have you ever seen the hatred in some people because they refuse your love for them? It's that very love that torments them.


Im continually amazed at those who claimed to speak as representing the truth of Christ, yet seem to have very little understanding that God is a God of justice. "don't be deceived, whatsoever a man sows so shall he reap" ..."God gives grace to the humble but resist the proud" No one has the right to impute the grace of God to those God has put under the judgment of His Wrath...unless those people humble themselves to the truth of the Cross, in true repentance ..none of us have the biblical authority to impute the grace of God to the wicked or to the ungodly unless they submit to the Cross of Christ. Now can the Spirit of God work in our heart to minister compassion to others ...of course and I think that is the Divine Nature of God working in us to show a sinner Christ...but at no point does that Divine Nature and compassion deny Gods Justice. I have done prison ministry for years, and am amazed at Gods compassion for the worst folks in our society but there is one thing that I always have made clear... "If you continue to work evil, the God who loves you will set Himself against you" God loves the children and the elderly and our society enough to punish those who cause harm against them.

It is love to protect the innocent and weak from the wicked ...we see this truth at work throughout the whole of the New Testament ...God is a just God. God (Christ seated on the right Hand of God) killed people, to protect His Church. God upholds the use of the sword to punish evil doers. That's the bible !
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#4
One distinction to make is that God is not justice. God IS love. His dealing with justice is always in line with who He really is. His justice is a manifestation of His great love for us.

As you say..God through our Lord Jesus has taken all the justice on Himself. Receive Him!

I think all justice/wrath/ell talks need to be centered around God's love for us.

here are some of my thoughts on it.



I'll start off with a quote from CS Lewis.

" The doors of hell are locked from the inside." If you are there it's because you chose it...Lewis says the damned are in a sense "successful rebels unto the end."...because hell is their own willful determination to live a selfish, independent existence from Love. People, not God choose hell.

Scripture seems to give men the liberty to pursue their own demand toward self-destruction.

Whatever hell is and to what degree it is populated - the question of utmost importance concerns the nature of the "goodness of God". I will argue that it is God's very Goodness. ..not His hatred for the person that actually tortures people in hell.

Vengeance is not wreaked on God's children, but on sin itself that is in man ( apart from those that have received Christ ) - because of what sin does to destroy mankind. His "wrath remains on those" who refuse to accept that wrath has already been removed. ( John 3:36 )

Ant biblical phrase regarding God's "vengeance" can ultimately interpreted no other way than the sowing and reaping people bring upon themselves by rejecting the mercy already given on the cross. God has already fully dealt with the sin issue on the cross. Yet, some refuse to accept His already given solution - demanding to hold onto a penalty that has already been absolved from His perspective.

If effect they are refusing the grace that is in Christ.

Mercy triumphs over judgment but it doesn't skirt it. The wrath of the Lamb is about wiping out a sin identity that justly demands to be destroyed and that He did destroy in His own death. The wrath of the Lamb is not that God is personally peeved at people.

But to those who refuse to believe...they have been judged and condemned already by the very fact of their refusal to believe in the non-judgment already pronounced!

The wrath of God/Lamb is a manifestation of the love of God. The refusal of the love of God is the very thing that will torment people in whatever hell turns out to look like. Have you ever seen the hatred in some people because they refuse your love for them? It's that very love that torments them.
A lot to agree with in your post...but I did not say God is justice...I said God is just...and that real love from God is based on justice or else its not Gods kind of love.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#5
Is it legal/biblical/moral to take justice into our own hands, though? Like some rogue vigilantes do? Is it okay to go out and kill them because they offended us, or killed someone we love??
Well it would depend on the situation... God makes clear that He upholds the sword in the hands a civil systems that agrees with Him as it relates to criminal behavior and laws that punish criminals. I believe if any government would ever be considered as established by God and to be in agreement with Gods ideas of justice, it would be our system of government ..that actually makes the moral citizen under the authority of the constitution a bearer of the sword of justice. I believe any moral citizen that used the sword under our constitution would be justified by Gods standards to use the sword. Which I believe is even the norm at the time Paul wrote this truth.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#6
Very true! Well said!

You didn't say that for sure. I have just seen it written or spoken of often that God is justice. I have in the past viewed justice and wrath as if it was "apart" from the love of God. The viewing of God IS love helped me to repent ( change my mind ) of how I looked at how God relates to us.


A lot to agree with in your post...but I did not say God is justice...I said God is just...and that real love from God is based on justice or else its not Gods kind of love.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,630
887
113
61
#7
Im continually amazed at those who claimed to speak as representing the truth of Christ, yet seem to have very little understanding that God is a God of justice. "don't be deceived, whatsoever a man sows so shall he reap" ..."God gives grace to the humble but resist the proud" No one has the right to impute the grace of God to those God has put under the judgment of His Wrath...unless those people humble themselves to the truth of the Cross, in true repentance ..none of us have the biblical authority to impute the grace of God to the wicked or to the ungodly unless they submit to the Cross of Christ. Now can the Spirit of God work in our heart to minister compassion to others ...of course and I think that is the Divine Nature of God working in us to show a sinner Christ...but at no point does that Divine Nature and compassion deny Gods Justice. I have done prison ministry for years, and am amazed at Gods compassion for the worst folks in our society but there is one thing that I always have made clear... "If you continue to work evil, the God who loves you will set Himself against you" God loves the children and the elderly and our society enough to punish those who cause harm against them.

It is love to protect the innocent and weak from the wicked ...we see this truth at work throughout the whole of the New Testament ...God is a just God. God (Christ seated on the right Hand of God) killed people, to protect His Church. God upholds the use of the sword to punish evil doers. That's the bible !
Yes, God is justice and he will judge one day all human beeings. But when I read 1.peter 2,9ff and special vers 13 than God gave the sword to the rulers of the nations. I know this is a tough matter. But from this world in which we live we cant expect justice. At moment we have the time of grace and the hope that many will turn to christ before it is to late.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#8
Instead of looking for a God of justice we should look for a God of mercy, for it would be just that we all should burn.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#9
Instead of looking for a God of justice we should look for a God of mercy, for it would be just that we all should burn.
We have to look at God through His Word...we don't make God what we want Him to be, we trust what God says He Is and allow Him to make us what He wants us to be.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#10
Yes, God is justice and he will judge one day all human beeings. But when I read 1.peter 2,9ff and special vers 13 than God gave the sword to the rulers of the nations. I know this is a tough matter. But from this world in which we live we cant expect justice. At moment we have the time of grace and the hope that many will turn to christ before it is to late.
No God put the sword of justice in the hands of men, to be used ..Now. The idea that God wants the wicked to abuse others in this world and folks to stand around in the name of religion is completely unbiblical and contrary to Gods love... The same God that raised Jesus from the dead to justify all men can be seen striking down the wicked by His power and warning all that His goodness is not to mocked.... He is a God of justice and without justice there cannot be real love.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#11
we like sheep are led to the slaughter all day.

It's a slippery slope when we enter in to these kind of discussions as we were warned of these times were coming. I can see both view points and agree with both.
But what would the Lord have us do and why. We have many examples in the new testament to say we are not to physically defend the gospel as in the stoning
of Steven, the beatings of Paul, the executions of the apostles, etc.
Yes Peter carried a sword and it is believed by some that 3 of the apostles did but when it came to the defense of the word Jesus said put away your sword. That we cannot deny. So I think the real question is are these the times that the Lord said would come or are these just a bunch of wantabes rebels we should take aim at?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#12
we like sheep are led to the slaughter all day.

It's a slippery slope when we enter in to these kind of discussions as we were warned of these times were coming. I can see both view points and agree with both.
But what would the Lord have us do and why. We have many examples in the new testament to say we are not to physically defend the gospel as in the stoning
of Steven, the beatings of Paul, the executions of the apostles, etc.
Yes Peter carried a sword and it is believed by some that 3 of the apostles did but when it came to the defense of the word Jesus said put away your sword. That we cannot deny. So I think the real question is are these the times that the Lord said would come or are these just a bunch of wantabes rebels we should take aim at?
You do understand that the epistles was written after Jesus told Peter to not use his sword to defend Him? Do you think Paul was ignorant of God will when he clearly upholds the sword to punish evil doers? Do you think he was ignorant of Gods Will when he blinded and punished certain men...Do you think God Himself didn't understand His Own Will when He killed certain people to protect His Church? Anyone who would teach others to allow criminals and murders to destroy our society, does not know the God of the bible, nor do they understand His standards of justice ... does this sound like God wants criminals and killers to run rampant or to be judged and punished with the sword?

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#13
Good point!

There appears to be different responses for different situations.

I believe there is the sword for "society" situations. Just as Peter says ...do not suffer as an evil doer and get punished for doing evil stuff..

1 Peter 2:13-16 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

On the other side of the coin there are times in our personal life where we are to walk away and times to defend the weak. As the word says..there are times and seasons for everything. The Holy Spirit will be our guide as the situations arise and show us what we are to do.. We need to trust Him.



You do understand that the epistles was written after Jesus told Peter to not use his sword to defend Him? Do you think Paul was ignorant of God will when he clearly upholds the sword to punish evil doers? Do you think he was ignorant of Gods Will when he blinded and punished certain men...Do you think God Himself didn't understand His Own Will when He killed certain people to protect His Church? Anyone who would teach others to allow criminals and murders to destroy our society, does not know the God of the bible, nor do they understand His standards of justice ... does this sound like God wants criminals and killers to run rampant or to be judged and punished with the sword?

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#14
Good point!

There appears to be different responses for different situations.

I believe there is the sword for "society" situations. Just as Peter says ...do not suffer as an evil doer and get punished for doing evil stuff..

1 Peter 2:13-16 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

On the other side of the coin there are times in our personal life where we are to walk away and times to defend the weak. As the word says..there are times and seasons for everything. The Holy Spirit will be our guide as the situations arise and show us what we are to do.. We need to trust Him.
Sure the Lord was speaking in terms of justice in a society..and clearly He upholds that as His Will for a society. Very much part of my point in this thread. The idea that Christians do not uphold justice in our society in name of Christ is just unbiblical.