Matthew 24:40 Is the rapture secret?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it is not just the dead in Christ but we who are alive as well. IOW it is the whole Church, all those who are in Christ, from the day of Pentecost till the time of the Rapture.

Yes.

I am just explaining that "Rapture" is defined as "caught-up / snatched"... but "resurrection" speaks to being "bodily resurrected after having physically / bodily dead [/'sleep through Jesus']"... which part is what the section saying "the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE first [i.e. be bodily-resurrected from the dead; defined as "to stand again [on the earth]"] BEFORE we [which are ALIVE] are "caught up TOGETHER WITH them" in the same "snatch-action".

Many folks tend to CONFLATE the idea of "rapture [SNATCH]" with that of "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth, after having physically/bodily DIED]"--which is what "the DEAD IN Christ SHALL RISE *first*" means--and therefore tend to misconstrue what THIS passage is actually saying. Hence why I'm pointing out that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" that point in time being spoken of in this text, do not require being "resurrected" because we won't have DIED to that point. Yes, both components ARE "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (to / for / about whom "RAPTURE [/SNATCH]" SOLELY pertains... and that Matthew 24 is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse! Agreed!)

Hope that clears up any confusion.


We are basically in agreement!

(I just sought to clarify one small part that often causes confusion to many, who tend to incorrectly EQUATE the ideas of: "rapture [caught-up / snatch... "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"]" and "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth, after having physically / bodily DIED]"
--"the DEAD IN Christ" who shall "RISE [be bodily-resurrected] *first* will ALSO be "caught-up / raptured / snatched" BECAUSE they are ALSO a component OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those "saved" in "this present age [singular]" [since the first century / Pentecost / indwelt with the Holy Spirit, per what Jesus was explaining per the wording of John 7:39, as well as what Eph1:20-23 spells out: "WHEN [as to its existence]"]).




Matthew 24:29-31 (and its CONTEXT--the Olivet Discourse [its "future" parts]), on the other hand, refers to that which Isaiah 27:9,12-13 had ALREADY spoken of (note WHO, and TO WHERE, and IN WHAT MANNER *they* will be gathered, and BY WHOM, and to WHAT PURPOSE--completely distinct from everything pertaining to "our Rapture [/SNATCH]").
Note here that verse 9 of Isa27 corresponds with both Rom11:27 and Dan9:24 [parts]... note again "WHO"

 

[randyk]

@As in the days before the Flood, men were oblivious to the judgment that was coming. The same exists today.”

yes those who don’t accept the gospel are unaware , those who do are taught about that judgement to come .

It returns always to who hears and believes the gospel those who do can’t avoid knowing about the coming judgement

honestly regarding “the great tribulation “my opinion is it was about the foret century of Jerusalem and the disciples of Jesus until 70 ad . And has nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus at the end of the world

My opinion is just as those scriptures say 1 Jesus will return at the end of the world 2 gather his people both the dead and still living and 3 destroy the rest with fire

and that day isn’t going to be part o a seven year period of trouble or any trying like that but it will be just another normal day as the world turns and suddenly Jesus will return

the great tribulation is fulfillment of prophecy regarding Israel’s desolation n first century ……but again it’s just my opinion based on scripture and how I have understood it doesn’t mean it’s the end all be all

Well, I have a certain agreement with Preterists and with Dispensationalists both. I do believe that when Jesus spoke of the "Great Tribulation" he was speaking of what began in the 1st century with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

But then the trouble was only beginning for the Jewish People because they were taken into exile, which we now call the "Jewish Diaspora." Jesus seemed to indicate this "Great Tribulation" would last until the end of the age with his Return.

What made this Tribulation "Great" is the fact it was the greatest punishment God has ever visited upon the Jewish People--certainly not because it was the most intense as a punishment, because what could commpare with Romans burning Christians or hanging Jews on the cross in the 1st century? Or, what could be worse in intensity with the Holocaust of WW2?

No, I think Jesus was speaking of the sheer length of time this Jewish Diaspora, or exile, has lasted. Compared with the 70 year exile of Israel during the Babylonian Captivity, the Jewish Diaspora is far, far greater in length, and certainly brought into question whether the Jewish People would even survive as a people.

On the other hand, I agree with Dispensationalists that the Reign of Antichrist will continue the Tribulation of the present age against God's People, whether Jew or Christian. It just is not, in my view, the "Final Judgment" of the age, which takes splace immediately before Christ's Reutnr, primarily Armageddon itself.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well, I have a certain agreement with Preterists and with Dispensationalists both. I do believe that when Jesus spoke of the "Great Tribulation" he was speaking of what began in the 1st century with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

But then the trouble was only beginning for the Jewish People because they were taken into exile, which we now call the "Jewish Diaspora." Jesus seemed to indicate this "Great Tribulation" would last until the end of the age with his Return.

What made this Tribulation "Great" is the fact it was the greatest punishment God has ever visited upon the Jewish People--certainly not because it was the most intense as a punishment, because what could commpare with Romans burning Christians or hanging Jews on the cross in the 1st century? Or, what could be worse in intensity with the Holocaust of WW2?

No, I think Jesus was speaking of the sheer length of time this Jewish Diaspora, or exile, has lasted. Compared with the 70 year exile of Israel during the Babylonian Captivity, the Jewish Diaspora is far, far greater in length, and certainly brought into question whether the Jewish People would even survive as a people.

On the other hand, I agree with Dispensationalists that the Reign of Antichrist will continue the Tribulation of the present age against God's People, whether Jew or Christian. It just is not, in my view, the "Final Judgment" of the age, which takes splace immediately before Christ's Reutnr, primarily Armageddon itself.

Yea it’s alright to disagree

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes.

I am just explaining that "Rapture" is defined as "caught-up / snatched"... but "resurrection" speaks to being "bodily resurrected after having physically / bodily dead [/'sleep through Jesus']"... which part is what the section saying "the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE first [i.e. be bodily-resurrected from the dead; defined as "to stand again [on the earth]"] BEFORE we [which are ALIVE] are "caught up TOGETHER WITH them" in the same "snatch-action".

Many folks tend to CONFLATE the idea of "rapture [SNATCH]" with that of "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth, after having physically/bodily DIED]"--which is what "the DEAD IN Christ SHALL RISE *first*" means--and therefore tend to misconstrue what THIS passage is actually saying. Hence why I'm pointing out that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" that point in time being spoken of in this text, do not require being "resurrected" because we won't have DIED to that point. Yes, both components ARE "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (to / for / about whom "RAPTURE [/SNATCH]" SOLELY pertains... and that Matthew 24 is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse! Agreed!)

Hope that clears up any confusion.


We are basically in agreement!

(I just sought to clarify one small part that often causes confusion to many, who tend to incorrectly EQUATE the ideas of: "rapture [caught-up / snatch... "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"]" and "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth, after having physically / bodily DIED]"
--"the DEAD IN Christ" who shall "RISE [be bodily-resurrected] *first* will ALSO be "caught-up / raptured / snatched" BECAUSE they are ALSO a component OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those "saved" in "this present age [singular]" [since the first century / Pentecost / indwelt with the Holy Spirit, per what Jesus was explaining per the wording of John 7:39, as well as what Eph1:20-23 spells out: "WHEN [as to its existence]"]).




Matthew 24:29-31 (and its CONTEXT--the Olivet Discourse [its "future" parts]), on the other hand, refers to that which Isaiah 27:9,12-13 had ALREADY spoken of (note WHO, and TO WHERE, and IN WHAT MANNER *they* will be gathered, and BY WHOM, and to WHAT PURPOSE--completely distinct from everything pertaining to "our Rapture [/SNATCH]").
Note here that verse 9 of Isa27 corresponds with both Rom11:27 and Dan9:24 [parts]... note again "WHO"

“I am just explaining that "Rapture" is defined as "caught-up / snatched"... but "resurrection" speaks to being "bodily resurrected after having physically / bodily dead [/'sleep through Jesus']"... which part is what the section saying "the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE first [i.e. be bodily-resurrected from the dead; defined as "to stand again [on the earth”

the physical bodies aren’t what rises up if you read the context of what he’s saying it starts here with the question “ how will the dead be raised up ? With what body will they rise ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 42-44‬ ‭

But those alive when Jesus returns will be changed instantaneously to thier spiritual glory as Gods children and the flesh will be left behind but the spirit will be revealed in us all

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the natural or physical dies and returns to dust we were made from originally but the spirit God gave us to live within the flesh body slept when tbier body died ….later raises up to him for judgement. the final judgement is of spiritual people after tbier body already either died or they were alive when Jesus returns and were instantly changed from flesh to spirit

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But there’s life in him and not death if we hear and believe

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ….

….Verily, verily, I ( Jesus the savior and Lord ) say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live the dead will live again ) and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.( the living who believe will never die )

Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

….Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:21-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the more of what Jesus said in the gospel we listen to and accept as truth the more beneficial the gospel becomes to increase faith and belief in him and also the promises grow greater as we realize there truly is nothing beyond him and we really only know what he said for us to know why wouldn’t we believe him prayerfully inquiring into the things he promised believers in him?

If to a man who believed in him and was nailed to a cross beside him hoirs from death he said this

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s also things like this to consider in prophecy

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭

And fulfillment

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then realize there’s a resurrection that was promised to israel in tbe ot according to thier covenant promises through Moses and the prophets. And there’s a second resurrection Jesus promised to Christian’s at the end of the new covenant when he returns that all the dead will be raised up.

 

[sawdust]

Hope that clears up any confusion.

Yes, I understand what you meant now. Thanks.

 

[randyk]

“I am just explaining that "Rapture" is defined as "caught-up / snatched"... but "resurrection" speaks to being "bodily resurrected after having physically / bodily dead [/'sleep through Jesus']"... which part is what the section saying "the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE first [i.e. be bodily-resurrected from the dead; defined as "to stand again [on the earth”

the physical bodies aren’t what rises up if you read the context of what he’s saying it starts here with the question “ how will the dead be raised up ? With what body will they rise ?...

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;....


there’s also things like this to consider in prophecy

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭

And fulfillment

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then realize there’s a resurrection that was promised to israel in tbe ot according to thier covenant promises through Moses and the prophets. And there’s a second resurrection Jesus promised to Christian’s at the end of the new covenant when he returns that all the dead will be raised up.

I agree that the Resurrection is distinct, in a sense, from the Rapture. It is part of the same event, and yet separate, since those who are seized/raptured are those who are "alive and remain," while those who are "in their graves" are simply brought out of their graves.

I don't distinguish between Israel's resurrection and the resurrection at the 2nd Coming. "Coming out of the grave" is somehwat of a metaphorical way of stating "resurrection." The spirits of departed saints are actually in heaven with God, and not in their actual graves.

Israel is restored at the time when the saints of both Israel and the nations are resurrected and given authority over the nations. And so, Israel's national resurrection, which is a physical restoration on earth, is simultaneous with the resurrection of the Jewish saints, which takes place at the same time as the resurrection of saints from many nations. My opinion only....

 

[FredVB]

I will not argue about the rapture. There are passages we know of that support a position on that. But focus on it has such who speak of it distracted from other things including things said in the Bible such as other coming things, and our responsibilities. There is the call to God's people. There is collapse ahead that we come toward, Mystery Babylon will fall, as it was said. And I see Isaiah 24.

 

[randyk]

I will not argue about the rapture. There are passages we know of that support a position on that. But focus on it has such who speak of it distracted from other things including things said in the Bible such as other coming things, and our responsibilities. There is the call to God's people. There is collapse ahead that we come toward, Mystery Babylon will fall, as it was said. And I see Isaiah 24.

God put the "Rapture," if you want to call it that, into the Bible. And so it is relevant. He put the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelaiton in the Bible. He put 1 and 2 Thessalonians into the Bible, and so they are all relevant.

But when focus on speculation about future prophecy takes the place of our need to be spiritual and moral and obedient now, we've gotten off the path. So I take your concerns seriously. We need to keep things in an order of priority for sure! Thank you.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

...I take your concerns seriously. We need to keep things in an order of priority for sure! Thank you.

Amen, totally agree. This is the Very First rule in my own Bible study Rules!

"Let all things be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:40 AV)​

​

Amen.

 

[Rondonmon]

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Why are there so many different opinions about the rapture. Here is a warning directly from Jesus. it sounds scary but in reality it is a comforting warning:

[Luk 21:8-19, 25-27 KJV] 8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by. 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. ... 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This link has a pretty good study about the subject.

Think about it ONE is taken and ONE is left, and 5 of the 10 Virgins miss the rapture.

SAME 50% RATIO.

 

[randyk]

Think about it ONE is taken and ONE is left, and 5 of the 10 Virgins miss the rapture.

SAME 50% RATIO.

I'll say it again: Have you considered that the one who is taken and the one who is left are *both* Jews who are overtaken by the Romans? Some were deported while others were put in the fields to labor for the Romans.


Jer 40.6 So Jeremiah went to Gedaliah son of Ahikam at Mizpah and stayed with him among the people who were left behind in the land. ... 11 When all the Jews in Moab, Ammon, Edom and all the other countries heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant in Judah and had appointed Gedaliah son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, as governor over them, 12 they all came back to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah at Mizpah, from all the countries where they had been scattered.

 

[Rondonmon]

I'll say it again: Have you considered that the one who is taken and the one who is left are *both* Jews who are overtaken by the Romans? Some were deported while others were put in the fields to labor for the Romans.


Jer 40.6 So Jeremiah went to Gedaliah son of Ahikam at Mizpah and stayed with him among the people who were left behind in the land. ... 11 When all the Jews in Moab, Ammon, Edom and all the other countries heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant in Judah and had appointed Gedaliah son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, as governor over them, 12 they all came back to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah at Mizpah, from all the countries where they had been scattered.

Read the verses, been a preacher for going on 45 years now, its pretty basic stuff. Verses 3-31 are about the Jews, verses 4-6 is about the 70 AD events, verses 7-8 are throw away lines by Jesus describing why verse 4-6 can not be the 2nd coming, his goal was to make sure the disciples did not rush back to Jerusalem at that time, thinking Jesus had returned, and the church would have followed them and been wiped out in its infancy. Then in verses 9-13 Jesus reverts back to the task at hand, showing his disciples what was coming there way

They were told they would be betrayed and false prophets would have them killed, not false Christian types, but the Zeus/Jupiter types would cry unto Rome and all but John would be killed. Then he warns them you must endure until the end [of ones life........unlike Judas]. In other words as Paul says, we must run the full race until the end. Then in vs. 14 we are given the key to it all, the Gospel must be preached unto all the world then THE END (spoken about in vs. 6) will come and that end is talking about the 70th week. So, the Disciples were given a fool proof guide to survival. They knew they would never spread the Gospel unto India/China or the Scythians (modern day Russia) etc. etc. so they knew Jesus could not come back during their life times AND they knew they were all going to be Martyrs for Jesus' name save John. So, verses 4-6 now makes sense, the fake christs were not end time fakes, but men whom the Jews/Pharisees put forth to save them from the Fourth Beast, and it is well known they but forth 2 or 3 men as the Messiah during that time. But the Disciples knew better, thus they stayed away. In verses 7-8 Jesus was merely giving the Disciples such a vivid account of why the 70 AD events could not be the end times, because, this, this and this has to happen first. It was not really germane to verses 4-13, but it was put in to show why Jesus could not return in 70 AD, and why it was way down the road, the end is not yet.

Verses 15-31 is about the 2nd coming, no doubt, and mostly about the End Time Jews.

Then we get a Parable of the fig tree in verses 32-35 that shows us why whoever sees the last sign will see Jesus' 2nd coming. The LAST SIGN in verses 29-30 is the Sun & Moon going dark, and that happens in the middle of the 70th week so of course those Jews will see he 2nd Coming.

In verses 36-51 however we see the Pre Tribulation or Pre 70th week Rapture take place, its self explanatory tbh.

 

[randyk]

Read the verses, been a preacher for going on 45 years now, its pretty basic stuff. Verses 3-31 are about the Jews, verses 4-6 is about the 70 AD events, verses 7-8 are throw away lines by Jesus describing why verse 4-6 can not be the 2nd coming, his goal was to make sure the disciples did not rush back to Jerusalem at that time, thinking Jesus had returned, and the church would have followed them and been wiped out in its infancy. Then in verses 9-13 Jesus reverts back to the task at hand, showing his disciples what was coming there way

It would help if you mention which book you're referring to? There are, you know, 3 versions.

They were told they would be betrayed and false prophets would have them killed, not false Christian types, but the Zeus/Jupiter types would cry unto Rome and all but John would be killed. Then he warns them you must endure until the end [of ones life........unlike Judas]. In other words as Paul says, we must run the full race until the end. Then in vs. 14 we are given the key to it all, the Gospel must be preached unto all the world then THE END (spoken about in vs. 6) will come and that end is talking about the 70th week.

If you've been 45 years in the ministry, you and I both know that you can have errors for at least that long. But since this is not a competition I'll just share my own latest view. The 70th Week was historically fulfilled. That is the view of the ancient Church Fathers, with the exception of just a few, notably including Irenaeus and Hippolytus--both of whom love futurist-kind of speculations.

So the 70th Week followed directly the 69th Week, and that would've been in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. That's, for me, the end of the futurist interpretation of the 70th Week.

So, the Disciples were given a fool proof guide to survival. They knew they would never spread the Gospel unto India/China or the Scythians (modern day Russia) etc. etc. so they knew Jesus could not come back during their life times AND they knew they were all going to be Martyrs for Jesus' name save John. So, verses 4-6 now makes sense, the fake christs were not end time fakes, but men whom the Jews/Pharisees put forth to save them from the Fourth Beast, and it is well known they but forth 2 or 3 men as the Messiah during that time. But the Disciples knew better, thus they stayed away. In verses 7-8 Jesus was merely giving the Disciples such a vivid account of why the 70 AD events could not be the end times, because, this, this and this has to happen first. It was not really germane to verses 4-13, but it was put in to show why Jesus could not return in 70 AD, and why it was way down the road, the end is not yet.

I agree that many of the signs, namely the birthpain signs, took place in the time of the Apostles, in the 1st generation of the Church.

Verses 15-31 is about the 2nd coming, no doubt, and mostly about the End Time Jews.

Then we get a Parable of the fig tree in verses 32-35 that shows us why whoever sees the last sign will see Jesus' 2nd coming. The LAST SIGN in verses 29-30 is the Sun & Moon going dark, and that happens in the middle of the 70th week so of course those Jews will see he 2nd Coming.

I agree that the "last sign" is the appearance from heaven, immediately preceded by darkness apparently. I just don't think it has anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week. Thanks.

In verses 36-51 however we see the Pre Tribulation or Pre 70th week Rapture take place, its self explanatory tbh.

Sorry, I don't see any Pretrib Rapture.

 

[Rondonmon]

It would help if you mention which book you're referring to? There are, you know, 3 versions.

My first reply above to rrcn was unto his Matt. 24:40 verse, and it then becomes obvious when I say verses 4-13 are about the disciples lives, verse 14 is about the gospel being preached unto the whole world, and verses 15-31 being the 70th week, verses 32-25 the Fig Tree parable etc. that this is Matt. 24, but you might have not read that far down yet in this reply.

If you've been 45 years in the ministry, you and I both know that you can have errors for at least that long. But since this is not a competition I'll just share my own latest view. The 70th Week was historically fulfilled. That is the view of the ancient Church Fathers, with the exception of just a few, notably including Irenaeus and Hippolytus--both of whom love futurist-kind of speculations.

So the 70th Week followed directly the 69th Week, and that would've been in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. That's, for me, the end of the futurist interpretation of the 70th Week.

That is misleading, I can find any former Church Father who says any wild thing and say the Church Forefathers said this, so I rarely use that line unless 90 percent said or thought something, and that is still not relevant unto the truth of God, which is all that matters right? God gives us knowledge when needed, He told Daniel all these things will be revealed at the very end, when knowledge increases.

I neve understood how the 69th week can end with Jesus but the 700th week comes in 70 AD o 63-70 AD which is 30 years later, that defeats you guys arguments that it as to be a continual prophecy. The fact is God gave us three separate prophesies, The Wall being rebuilt AND the Death of Jesus which are ADDED TOGETHER in one verse, (think about it......meaning God was showing that as a continual prophesy) then God gives us Dan. 9:27 (really there are only 26 verses, half of 26 goes with 25 and the other half goes with 26, those who put in verses did it wrongly.

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks483 years in full) the street shall be built again, and the wall(after 49 years, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (Jesus is killed after 483 yrs), but not for himself: (So, the first part of verse 26 goes with verse 25, Jesus dying and THE WALL are one continual timeline, as shown above, they they are placed together BELOW: the rest of verse 26 goes with verse 27. )

and the people(Rome/E.U.) of the prince that shall come(2000 YEARS LATER, the Little Horn/AC) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(Romans in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(for 2000 years Israel were DESOLATED). 27 And he(Anti-Christ) shall confirm the covenant(Agreement) with many(Not just Israel, look up the European Neighborhood Policy, they have CURRENTLY 7 year Agreements with Israel, Lebanon, Jordan. Syria, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Libya and Algeria....and its a test for possible future State Membership in the E.U., so, when Israel joins the E.U. that kicks it all off, the 70th week, God is angry they "GAVE His land away, the Pre Trib. Rapture happens and the 70th week starts all at tis one fulcrum point) for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(at the 1290, so it can not be the AC per se, NIOTICE, he CAUSES, he gets his right hand man, the "False Prophet" to forbid Jesus worship after Israel repents and read Rev. 13, who places the IMAGE? The 2nd Beast !! The AC only comes on the scene 30 days later at the 1260), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, by your own logic and timeline you have to admit the 70th week being in 70 AD can not have followed Jesus' death. Its just not a possibility brother. And see how verse 26 is not a real verse in and of itself? Part goes with vs. 25 and part goes with vs. 27. As per the False Prophet and Anti-Christ yes, God gave us an Archetype in Antiochus, but no one thinks it through, God thus had to also give us an Archetype False Prophet living at the same time as Antiochus, and he did, a man named Jason, whose real nae was Yeshua, but he took on a Greek name, he bribed Antiochus to be named the High Priest, and thus his pious high priest brother Onias III was killed. He then welcomed Antiochus into the temple to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus and then he mandated that all Jews must become Hellenized, leading unto the Maccabean Revolt. So, we know the end time False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest who betrays his Jewish brothers.

I agree that many of the signs, namely the birth pang signs, took place in the time of the Apostles, in the 1st generation of the Church.

Well, the Birth Pangs were meant to show why the end was later on, not in 70 AD so those Birth Pangs have to lead unto the very end, as birth pangs lead unto a baby right? The point Jesus was making is this can not be the end because all these things have not happened yet, and how could they? I mean Rome was not going to let any Kingdom rise against another Kingdom lol, they were that dominant.

I agree that the "last sign" is the appearance from heaven, immediately preceded by darkness apparently. I just don't think it has anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week. Thanks.

Look at the 6 Requirements of the Prophesy, Israel MUST REPENT before the Prophesy can come to pass. Look at Rome in AD 117 on a map, then look at the European Neighborhood Policy, the E.U. will conquer Israel and THE MANY, every nation on that map, and thus the Fourth Beast is thus reunited in full, just like 2000 years ago.





The ENP is the European Neighborhood Policy Agreements, it can be seen on Wiki these deals ran from 2007-2013 from 2014-2020 and have been reupped in 2020-2027.

The Beast only lives again when the AC/E.U. conquers Israel and every nation in Brown (and Turkey).

Sorry, I don't see any Pretrib Rapture.

That is my most easy observation point on if a person understands Prophesy or not. Its just too easy not to be able to see tbh. God Bless

 

[randyk]

My first reply above to rrcn was unto his Matt. 24:40 verse, and it then becomes obvious when I say verses 4-13 are about the disciples lives, verse 14 is about the gospel being preached unto the whole world, and verses 15-31 being the 70th week, verses 32-25 the Fig Tree parable etc. that this is Matt. 24, but you might have not read that far down yet in this reply.

Thanks.
Matt 24.4-13 is indeed about the Disciples' lives. But why stop there? The verses that follow are, I think, also about the Disciples' lives. They were mandated to preach throughout the world, and they certainly did. I'm not saying that the Gospel Mission was completed with the Apostles. But it's clear that they participated in it.

In fact I would argue that Jesus had the Disciples' lives in mind all the way through to verse 28 where Jesus spoke of the vulutures gathering around the corpse, which I view to represent the Romans gathering around Jerusalem.

Obviously, the Disciples wouldn't see the 2nd Coming, but they did see him coming in judgment in a sense in 70 AD. In OT Prophecy, the Lord is often viewed as "coming in judgment." The Lord doesn't actually, literally "come" in those instances. But his *judgment* is viewed as coming, and with it the stamp of Divine action.

Then Jesus goes on to describe how the early warning signs of the Roman judgment in 70 AD would all take place in the very generation of his Disciples. These consisted of the evil things israel did to deserve judgment, and the signs of impending judgment, including the rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc.

Finally, Jesus warned his Disciples to be prepared for his Kingdom, not so much by trying to anticipate *when* on the calendar it would happen, but rather, ini the event things happen in our lives to test our fidelity. They would escape the Roman judgment if they remained true to Jesus and listened to his warning to flee. And they would avoid eternal judgment if they chose to live by him in an ongoing way, denying themselves of all carnal pursuits.

In other words, in my view, it was all for the Disciples and for anybody else who could learn from what Jesus said to them. In principle the things the Disciples experienced in apostate Israel are things Christians can learn from today living in apostate Christian countries.

That is misleading, I can find any former Church Father who says any wild thing and say the Church Forefathers said this, so I rarely use that line unless 90 percent said or thought something, and that is still not relevant unto the truth of God, which is all that matters right? God gives us knowledge when needed, He told Daniel all these things will be revealed at the very end, when knowledge increases.

Well no--Daniel was given principles that applied in his own time as well as things that would only be fully understood in their own time. But what we're talking about are things that were understood in their own time, as attested to by 90% of the Church Fathers. If they didn't get it, then I suppose God wasted His time telling them these things?

Certainly, some things can be gotten wrong for quite a long time. But the most important things for a particular time are understood in that time. Otherwise, God's Word went unheeded and ended up null and void.

As I said, the 70th Week logically follows directly the 69th Week. It is illogical to believe there is an interveneing period of 2000 years and then still call it a "70 Week Period!" The Church Fathers largely shared that logic.

I neve understood how the 69th week can end with Jesus but the 700th week comes in 70 AD o 63-70 AD which is 30 years later, that defeats you guys arguments that it as to be a continual prophecy.

No, you just look at my view differently than I actually see it. I see the 70 Weeks prophecy as a period leading up to Messiah being cut off. The part where the city and the sanctuary are destroyed *follows* the 70 Weeks period. These things *follow* the death of Christ.

The context of the prophecy in fact is about the ineptitude of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem in bringing Israel to their final destination. Already in view in the 70th Week is the notion that the "people of the ruler to come", ie the Roman Army, will come and lay siege to Jerusalem and destroy the temple following the cutting off of Messiah. And it is termed the "Abomination of Desolation"--an "abomination" because the Romans are abominable pagans, and "desolation" because they will eradicate the Temple worship.

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks483 years in full) the street shall be built again, and the wall(after 49 years, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (Jesus is killed after 483 yrs), but not for himself: (So, the first part of verse 26 goes with verse 25, Jesus dying and THE WALL are one continual timeline, as shown above, they they are placed together BELOW: the rest of verse 26 goes with verse 27. )

and the people(Rome/E.U.) of the prince that shall come(2000 YEARS LATER, the Little Horn/AC) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(Romans in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(for 2000 years Israel were DESOLATED). 27 And he(Anti-Christ) shall confirm the covenant(Agreement) with many...

The Roman Army came in Jesus' generation--just as Jesus said. And all of the "birth pain" signs were present prior to the events of 66-70 AD. The Roman ruler, generically speaking, caused the death of Jesus, via Pilate, invaded Jerusalem via Cestius Gallus, and destroyed the city and the Temple via Titus. These were all "the ruler to come." The Roman king had been predicted in Dan 2 and 7 to come in the series of 4 kingdoms.

The "covenant" the Roman ruler made was a subconscious agreement with God to complete prophecy in Israel, 1st by allowing Jesus to minister for 3.5 years, and then to put Messiah to death, thus completing the covenant of redemption. This is just how I view it, to be consistent with the pronoun "he."

So, by your own logic and timeline you have to admit the 70th week being in 70 AD can not have followed Jesus' death.

Why? I can't understand your protest? It makes perfect sense to me, and it is precisely how the Church Fathers viewed it, who lived close to that time.

Its just not a possibility brother. And see how verse 26 is not a real verse in and of itself? ...all Jews must become Hellenized, leading unto the Maccabean Revolt. So, we know the end time False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest who betrays his Jewish brothers.

Yes, I believe the Maccabbean history gives us a foretaste of the Antichrist. I think that's why Daniel placed prophecy of Antiochus 4 alongside of prophecy of the Little Horn, the Antichrist.

Well, the Birth Pangs were meant to show why the end was later on, not in 70 AD so those Birth Pangs have to lead unto the very end, as birth pangs lead unto a baby right? The point Jesus was making is this can not be the end because all these things have not happened yet, and how could they? I mean Rome was not going to let any Kingdom rise against another Kingdom lol, they were that dominant.

I never said that 70 AD was "the end!" What makes you think I said that? The 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and 7 was going to be a history long in time because Jesus indicated it would involve a great dispersion of the Jews in the worst punishment in Israel's history. That means it would exceed the 70 year Babylonian punishment. And it has exceeded that exponentially!

Look at the 6 Requirements of the Prophesy, Israel MUST REPENT before the Prophesy can come to pass.

Who said Israel has to repent, as a nation, 1st, ie before their national restoration? My understanding is that they're so surprised at Jesus' Coming that they will weep spontaneously.

Look at Rome in AD 117 on a map, then look at the European Neighborhood Policy, the E.U. will conquer Israel and THE MANY, every nation on that map, and thus the Fourth Beast is thus reunited in full, just like 2000 years ago.

i see no reason for the ancient version of the Roman Empire to reappear exactly as it had been? Western Rome was extended upwards into Germany. And Eastern Rome was extended upwards into Slavic territories. The territories did not remain the same in history. I doubt they will at the end of history.

Generally, European Civilization is the modern version of the Roman Empire when it comes together politically as a superpower. And in reality, European Civilization can be said to have extended to the Americas as well as to Russia!

I share your great interest in biblical prophecy. Don't let our disagreements stop you from continuing our dialogue now or in the future. We may change or grow and come to better agreement with time? Thanks.

 

[FredVB]

But focus on it has such who speak of it distracted from other things including things said in the Bible such as other coming things, and our responsibilities. There is the call to God's people. There is collapse ahead that we come toward, Mystery Babylon will fall, as it was said. And I see Isaiah 24.

Luke 21:8-9, 21:25-26
“Watch out that you don’t get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is at hand.’ Therefore don’t follow them. When you hear of wars and disturbances, don’t be terrified, for these things must happen first, but the end won’t come immediately.”
“There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and on the earth anxiety of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the waves; men fainting for fear and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

Revelation 11:18
“The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged, and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and those who fear your name, to the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation 18:2-24
“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and she has become a habitation of demons, a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hated bird! For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality, the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from the abundance of her luxury.”
I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, that you have no participation in her sins, and that you don’t receive of her plagues, for her sins have reached to the sky, and God has remembered her iniquities. Return to her just as she returned, and repay her double as she did, and according to her works. In the cup which she mixed, mix to her double. However much she glorified herself and grew wanton, so much give her of torment and mourning. For she says in her heart, ‘I sit a queen, and am no widow, and will in no way see mourning.’ Therefore in one day her plagues will come: death, mourning, and famine; and she will be utterly burned with fire, for the Lord God who has judged her is strong.
The kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived wantonly with her will weep and wail over her, when they look at the smoke of her burning, standing far away for the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For your judgment has come in one hour.’ The merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more: merchandise of gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple, silk, scarlet, all expensive wood, every vessel of ivory, every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble; and cinnamon, incense, perfume, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, chariots, and people’s bodies and souls. The fruits which your soul lusted after have been lost to you. All things that were dainty and sumptuous have perished from you, and you will find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, who were made rich by her, will stand far away for the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was dressed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls! For in an hour such great riches are made desolate.’ Every ship master, and everyone who sails anywhere, and mariners, and as many as gain their living by sea, stood far away, and cried out as they looked at the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like the great city?’ They cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her great wealth!’ For she is made desolate in one hour.
“Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints, apostles, and prophets, for God has judged your judgment on her.”
A mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down, and will be found no more at all. The voice of harpists, minstrels, flute players, and trumpeters will be heard no more at all in you. No craftsman of whatever craft will be found any more at all in you. The sound of a mill will be heard no more at all in you. The light of a lamp will shine no more at all in you. The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride will be heard no more at all in you, for your merchants were the princes of the earth; for with your sorcery all the nations were deceived. In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

See the same pattern in this of the old testament.

Isaiah 24:1-21
Yahweh makes the earth empty, makes it waste, turns it upside down, and scatters its inhabitants. It will be as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the creditor, so with the debtor; as with the taker of interest, so with the giver of interest. The earth will be utterly emptied and utterly laid waste; for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away. The world languishes and fades away. The lofty people of the earth languish. The earth also is polluted under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, and those who dwell therein are found guilty. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left. The new wine mourns. The vine languishes. All the merry-hearted sigh. The mirth of tambourines ceases. The sound of those who rejoice ends. The joy of the harp ceases. They will not drink wine with a song. Strong drink will be bitter to those who drink it. The confused city is broken down. Every house is shut up, that no man may come in. There is a crying in the streets because of the wine. All joy is darkened. The mirth of the land is gone. The city is left in desolation, and the gate is struck with destruction. For it will be so within the earth among the peoples, as the shaking of an olive tree, as the gleanings when the vintage is done. These shall lift up their voice. They will shout for the majesty of Yahweh. They cry aloud from the sea. Therefore glorify Yahweh in the east, even the name of Yahweh, the God of Israel, in the islands of the sea! From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs. Glory to the righteous!
But I said, “I pine away! I pine away! woe is me!” The treacherous have dealt treacherously. Yes, the treacherous have dealt very treacherously. Fear, the pit, and the snare are on you who inhabit the earth. It will happen that he who flees from the noise of the fear will fall into the pit; and he who comes up out of the middle of the pit will be taken in the snare; for the windows on high are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble. The earth is utterly broken. The earth is torn apart. The earth is shaken violently. The earth will stagger like a drunken man, and will sway back and forth like a hammock. Its disobedience will be heavy on it, and it will fall and not rise again. It will happen in that day that Yahweh will punish the army of the high ones on high, and the kings of the earth on the earth.

 

[Omegatime]

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. Rev 1:7

Lord coming on the clouds is the Rapture/ Resurrection.

The end of the tribulation he appears on a white horse