Modern Church Services and Preaching

[Steve4U]

I wonder at format of church services these days. The stamina of many Christians who hear a saint talk for 40 minutes or more every Sunday towards the end of a church service is amazing to me.

...I know Paul talked for 4 hours or more until a young man fell out of the window, and was taken up dead, but is that something to emulate ?

I think we generally are not achieving what we could when we gather together.

Communal worship, prayer, silence, sharing and testimony have a place. And many mature saints sit unused in many congregations. And are sometimes talked to weekly by a saint whose gift is administration, pastoring or team leadership.

What do you think?

.

 

[Snackersmom]

I think that if I could go to a church like the one described in I Corinthians, then I would actually go to church........as it is, I attend a small home fellowship, and I also come to this site. Still, I long for a true new-testament church gathering spot, where the members are of one acchord, and all seeking God's best for their lives. Alas, such congregations are nearly impossible to find, at least where I live .............. Now someone's going to chime in and tell me to go start my own..........Hmmmmmmm. Not a bad idea, actually .

 

[Steve4U]

Thank you Snackersmom, and I am still considering what you asked me about 2 weeks ago, but I think I am going to be limited in my new life, returning to my home country next week and knowing I will be busy for a time.

The current church I am attending has a period when the men of the congregation come forward and speak, and while there are many feminists in the world who would cheerfully chop me up for saying that, I have found it good training and uplifting (that is, from them: I have not spoken.)

The weekly speaker, after the remembrance and offering, watches the clock like a hawk, which is good, as, good teaching or uplifting exhortation it might be, but attention spans are what they are. There's a different speaker each week.

(I know believers easily listen for hours to someone with the Holy Spirit upon them but at the moment we only have those with the Spirit in them.)

The church I will attend on returning home is independent and founded by a devout old saint who determined to emulate a "new testament church". And the speaker each week is different there and outsiders sometimes come to speak, and isn't that refreshing.

Perhaps this is the nub of it. Are some speakers still doing it out of habit??

Frankly, I abhore the practicing of habits, pretensions and tradition (as much as unsweet noise, enthusiasm and "impact".)

Or are we in the habit (of allowing it)??

.

 

[tribesman]

I wonder at format of church services these days. The stamina of many Christians who hear a saint talk for 40 minutes or more every Sunday towards the end of a church service is amazing to me....

I think we generally are not achieving what we could when we gather together.

Communal worship, prayer, silence, sharing and testimony have a place. And many mature saints sit unused in many congregations. And are sometimes talked to weekly by a saint whose gift is administration, pastoring or team leadership.

What do you think?.

I have to say I think its a pity how it looks like in many if not most circles. Definitely a signal for awakening and to be revived. However, to present a solution to this issue is another cup of tea. Not that easy. I guess it has much to do with being more active on the field, creating missions in your local community. While reaching out to the needy many talents and gifts will be discovered. The in-house meetings and pulpit sermons are actually aimed to be power plants for our outreach, not just another program on the weekly schedule.After all, we should eat food to get strength to exercise and work, not to fill our bellies.

 

[yaright]

Thank you Snackersmom, and I am still considering what you asked me about 2 weeks ago, but I think I am going to be limited in my new life, returning to my home country next week and knowing I will be busy for a time.

The current church I am attending has a period when the men of the congregation come forward and speak, and while there are many feminists in the world who would cheerfully chop me up for saying that, I have found it good training and uplifting (that is, from them: I have not spoken.)

The weekly speaker, after the remembrance and offering, watches the clock like a hawk, which is good, as, good teaching or uplifting exhortation it might be, but attention spans are what they are. There's a different speaker each week.


(I know believers easily listen for hours to someone with the Holy Spirit upon them but at the moment we only have those with the Spirit in them.)

The church I will attend on returning home is independent and founded by a devout old saint who determined to emulate a "new testament church". And the speaker each week is different there and outsiders sometimes come to speak, and isn't that refreshing.

Perhaps this is the nub of it. Are some speakers still doing it out of habit??


Frankly, I abhore the practicing of habits, pretensions and tradition (as much as unsweet noise, enthusiasm and "impact".)

Or are we in the habit (of allowing it)??


.

I understand the necessity of speaking in a time and manner that the listeners would hear the witness. The Apostle Paul spoke of using every possible means to cause his listeners to receive the Word of God in a personal way. The way I was shown the meaning of the Christian fish by the Spirit is of creation language, and sounds like babble that lasts for quite some time. It was difficult at first to see people turn away because they could not 'hear it' I prayed that I be shown how to give witness of the things I'd been shown, in a time and manner in which it can be received in the beginnings of understanding. The teaching of the Christian fish went from fifteen hand written pages to one page along with the illustration. The witness, in two parts, take about a minute each, and causes a person to reflect on who he or she is in God's sight. I share this where ever I go, literally within a moment of waiting in their every day life. I personally did not know what a speaker goes through in preparation until I began to give testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what you are implying when you say, "At the moment we only have those with the Spirit in them." Is this a reference to the church you attend?


Not everyone who attends church can 'hear' the work of the Holy Spirit from within because of a condition called sleep. Not everyone who speaks, fully understands the words that come out of their mouth. This is demonstrated in several ways in the New Testament, and in this present time, for those who carefully consider these things. This should not be a point of contention, knowing that every Christian goes through this.

I understand a spiritual condition called 'sleep' which is spoken of in the Old Testament and demonstrated for us in the New Testament. I did not know of this condition until I began to be taught by the Spirit.


There is a mega church in the western part of the United States, founded by a preacher who began decades ago in home gatherings. I find it interesting that the actual structure that gets built up often times losses its physical beauty to many when that preacher is preparing to retire. This is one of the dangers of traditions. To go to a church which is touted as the way of the Word of God. I am of this saint or that saint isolates a person from Christ, and that person grows to be unproductive because he or she leans on borrowed faith.

I don't care for the pretense of habits that rely on loud noise; but to generalize the effect of impact may be counter productive. To actually be taught by the Spirit does in fact have a great impact. The 'impact' is not something a man does outwardly; but what the Spirit does within a person, is a life changing experience that causes people to carefully consider who they are and why they are that way in God's sight on a personal level. When a person is in a condition of sleep, he or she cannot hear the spiritual teaching; which I suppose is the reason some religions believe they need to use loud noises for impact. I don't believe loud noise is what changes a person's life; It is the 'hearing' of the Word on a personal level that has 'impact' in a person's life.


We are creatures of habit. Every living thing on the earth is a creature of habit (according to each kind). Each creature is made with a specific nature which can teach us a little bit more of who we are and why we are that way in God's sight. Even being called our Shepherd's sheep reveals a specific nature which has its own type of habits even given into biblical law for the purpose of teaching.

 

[jimsun]

We have a wonderful Curate(also a Teacher @ our kids school) who's sermons last about half an hour max.
However it's not what he preaches from the pulpit so much as what he sends you away thinking!
J.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Jesus gave us a commandment about what worship should look like. He took the bread, gave thanks, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "This is my body, given for you. As often as you gather, do this in remembrance of me." Again, after supper, he took the cup of wine, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, shed for you and for all for the forgiveness of sins. As often as you take it, do this in remembrance of me."

Jesus made it clear that every time we gather, we should share the bread and wine of Eucharist. He never said we were required to speak on Scripture for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 60 minutes, or anything. Of course, a preacher should speak on Scripture, and teach it as often as possible.

For that reason, my church, and many like it (Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, and many other denominations) have a set liturgy that follows Jesus command, serving communion every week. The liturgy looks like this:
-Opening prayers (often with a hymn or two in here)
-Reading of Scripture (usually 3-4 passages of Scripture, including Old and New testament readings, and always ending with something from the Gospels, sometimes a hymn or two)
-Sermon or Homily (usually on those Scriptures that were just read)
-Creed, additional prayers, offering of gifts (sometimes including confession, another hymn or two)
-Communion (the sharing of Christ's body and blood -- some churches think this is symbolic, others see it as "transubstantiation" or "consubstantiation" ... whatever theology you believe, all Christians agree it's something really special that Jesus does for us, and a means of grace, and yes, singing)
-Blessing and dismissal (again, hymns as we go ... gotta sing!)
Of course, by "hymn" I'm including modern praise music as well as traditional hymns. A hymn is any song of praise, and could be a choir anthem, a rock band, or the traditional organ with congregation.

The Sermon is only one small part of the service. I have never understood churches where you show up, sing a few songs, then the preacher gets up and talks for 20-30 minutes, then you sing some more, then you leave. Like the only reason you come is to hear the preacher preach. That ain't church, sorry. That's a preacher who likes to hear his own voice. Church isn't about what some man or woman has to say. It's about what GOD has to say, and what GOD did, does, and will continue to do. Yes, I appreciate a good sermon, but that really isn't what's most important.

 

[Steve4U]

(A personal thanks for these uplifting and insightful posts. I will reread them. I too feel strongly about communion (which I call remembrance) and find it powerful and never-failing.)

I am also thinking about prayer (perhaps something near to Tribesman's point about coming together for strengthening) and how much we may be missing in effectiveness if we are not coming together in prayer when we all gather together.

.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I like a mix of liturgical worship, and the standard hour long sermon.

So basically, modify slightly a lutheran type liturgy, and extend the length of the sermon. Some topics really just can't be addressed fully in 20 minutes.

I currently attend a Southern Baptist church, and I must say I don't care for the music. It's all contemporary. I'll sing to a hymn any day of the week as long as I can keep up, but contemporary.. I'm not interested in WorshipHero 2.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I currently attend a Southern Baptist church, and I must say I don't care for the music. It's all contemporary. I'll sing to a hymn any day of the week as long as I can keep up, but contemporary.. I'm not interested in WorshipHero 2.

Here's my take on CCM. There is some good contemporary Christian music out there, and there is an awful lot of dreck. I would bet dollars to donuts, if I were a betting woman, that 200 years ago, there were lots of hymns that were absolutely awful. Some of them have survived and are still in a handful of hymnals, but most of them have been forgotten, and probably thousands were never even published or printed, because they weren't worth the expense of being printed on paper. After all, 200 years ago, it was rather expensive to print something on paper, let alone have lots of copies made. So only the good hymns were published, kept, and last to this day. The further back you go (4oo years ago, to the invention of the printing press, or further back ... the first music written in anything resembling modern notation is maybe 600 years old ... though we know there was music before that ... David and his lyre goes back 6000 years.....) the more this is true.

Today, any two-bit know-it-all can sit on the internet and write a praise song. They can strum a guitar, put the words up on power-point, and all of a sudden, we've got a new praise song. If it's a little catchy, and people aren't paying attention (which if you ask me, is far too common these days), it will spread like wildfire. But because so many of these praise songs are as deep as a puddle, they don't take root, and won't last a year, let alone 100. Fear not: 200 years from now, the good praise music will be left, and all the crap that you're being forced to endure will have disappeared.

The good modern praise music is being written by Marty Haugen and Graham Kendrick. Are you familiar with them? There's other good stuff out there by other composers, but those are two I know of off the top of my head. There are also choral conductors along the lines of composers like Bach and Mozart, who are writing music not so much for the church service but for the concert hall, but it's solid religious-based music, like Rene Clausen. Stunning music. Daniel Moe comes to mind as well. Keep your eyes peeled, these are the composers who will be remembered in Church Music.

 

[yaright]

Many years ago, somewhere in the foothills of central Pennsylvania, a man people knew as Pappy Pennabaker, would sit on the porch of his shack and play the guitar, mandolin or banjo while singing many christian songs; not more than twenty feet off a dusty gravel road. Every once in awhile someone would stop to listen to the music, which was no less a sermon than entertainment. One of the songs he sang was, "There is power in the blood" I was a stranger who just happened by, and like many others, I stopped to listen to him sing. He taught me how to play the guitar, and I sang along with him. Pappy Pennabaker sang "There is power in the blood" with great tears of joy, as if he saw something in it personally. I sang along with him because I wanted the joy he had. A few years passed, and so did the man who gave witness with song. I remember back to the time when he led me to the Juniata River one snowy day, and baptized me. Moments like this a person doesn't forget. I had spent many years after that wandering in the wrong direction; and when life caught up to me, I came to realize why he sang that song with great joy; and in his memory I understood what it is to be forgiven, and why he sang that song like it meant something to him.....

 

[yaright]

We have a wonderful Curate(also a Teacher @ our kids school) who's sermons last about half an hour max.
However it's not what he preaches from the pulpit so much as what he sends you away thinking!
J.

To chew the cud is a nature of a creature who carefully considers its food......

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

We have a wonderful Curate(also a Teacher @ our kids school) who's sermons last about half an hour max.
However it's not what he preaches from the pulpit so much as what he sends you away thinking!
J.

I worked at a church for a while where the preacher had this to say, whenever anyone said, "Nice sermon, it really made me think." He would respond, "I don't want to make you just think. I want to make you DO! If my sermon makes you want to go out and DO something, then I'll consider it a successful sermon."

 

[yaright]

To chew the cud is a nature of a creature who carefully considers its food......

We are led by our Shepherd.

 

[yaright]

I worked at a church for a while where the preacher had this to say, whenever anyone said, "Nice sermon, it really made me think." He would respond, "I don't want to make you just think. I want to make you DO! If my sermon makes you want to go out and DO something, then I'll consider it a successful sermon."

Putting a few pictures together;

Jesus said, "Follow Me" and I will make you fishers of men....


Later, in His presence, the disciples ('do') went out in their boat, into the night. In their zeal to 'do' what they thought was right, they left the light (Jesus) to go out into darkness to catch 'fish"

When they returned to the light, Jesus asked, "Little children, do you have any meat?" They replied, "No."

Jesus said for them to cast the net next to the boat. The disciples thought nothing would happen because they did not search understanding from Jesus, but instead, did (do) the things which seemed right to them. It wasn't until they did as Jesus (who knows all things) instructed them that they began to see the meaning of the words, "Follow Me"

The head of any and every church built by the hands of me, does not know all things. I believe Jimsun is well spoken, and understood the meaning of what he posted.

 

[LDDJR]

As i read the many different views and points of others.... i can understand how one can feel the way they do.... in our church Sunday School starts at 9:45 and them Morning Worship is at 11:00 am... when i am able to be upstairs and hear him speak.. i feel sad, as many times he does not get to the pulpit until 11:45 and that is fine.. BUT there are those in our congregation when want to leave Church at 12 noon and have gotten up and left at say 12:10 as the preached was still preaching... that is where i get offended.. No, i say nothing but feel like he did not get the respect he deserves .. would they walk out in the middle of a concert? I am always well satisfied with his sermons and YES they leave you feeling like you want to go out and do so many great things... But how much time should he have? is it 30 minutes or 20.... i guess one can never please every one in the congregation ... but it sure would feel good.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Morning Worship is at 11:00 am {snip} he does not get to the pulpit until 11:45

Out of curiosity, what happens in the 45 minutes before he starts preaching? Does your church do Eucharist before the sermon, and that's why it takes so long before the sermon? Does your church have a worship committee, or some other means by which you could register a complaint, and say that you want the sermon to be a more central portion of the worship service than whatever it is that takes up the first 45 minutes of the service? What happens after the sermon? If the sermon is 30 minutes long, and then there's another 15 minutes after the sermon, that's still well under half the service being the sermon, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me .... I would question what the church is doing before, for 45 minutes, that they think is more important than hearing the Word of God. My question to them would be: IS this really more important than the word of God? And, if the church insists on continuing with those priorities, then you need to ask yourself: what are YOUR priorities? Is it more important to you to do whatever it is they're doing for 45 minutes than to hear the Word of God preached? I mean, maybe it is. Maybe what they're doing for 45 minutes before the sermon is reading straight out of the Scripture, in which case, heck, if that's your priority, then sure! It's just, you need to look at it and really ask them and ask yourself if that is the priority. They may not even realize that they're doing it, that they're worshiping the wrong god by their priorities.

I've been to churches where they pass the collection plate 3, 4, even 5 times. Getting money is the priority at those churches. I agree with tithing, but when that becomes the central focus of worship, when you realize that you're worshiping money rather than God, then it ain't church any more.

And as a professional church musician, hey, I LOVE to sing. But if our church were to do 45 minutes of singing and skip the Eucharist (which is the central focus of our worship, as I mentioned above), even I would say that's the wrong focus. Then it's a concert, not church.

Know what I mean?

 

[dmdave17]

Unfortunately, I believe that the impact of the message often boils down to the skill of the preacher. If you had been sitting in Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, for example, when the late Dr. D. James Kennedy was speaking, you may have sat through an hour-long sermon without even realizing it. You might have even left wishing he had said more.

I believe that parishioners owe a certain amount of respect to those who "pastor their flock". I believe that God has a plan and a purpose for everything, including long, boring sermons. Even as Christians, we all probably need to exercise a little more patience and kindness. And it has been my experience that the harder I have to concentrate on something, the more I get out of the message.

Ultimately, of course, we can all choose to go to another church. As has been pointed out, when the Apostle, Paul, referred to "the church", he had no particular building in mind. He was talking about the Body of Christ.

God bless.

 

[LDDJR]

Our church service starts at 11.. with choir, announcements , him selection, Invocation, special music.. this what can take long... from one person signing or two... then we got to Tithes and Offerings, then Doxology, then we have a Scripture Reading followed by Prayer and Praise and finally the Pastor and when he is finished we have a closing him and Benediction.... on avg we get out around 12:25 give or take a minute or two... and that is fine... But i feel we should limit our special music to one... and give the Pastor more time for preaching.... I mostly am down stairs with our Children's Church, but can hear him speaking through the closed circuit TV.. I do not send up the children until i hear the people moving on floor.... other teachers send up when they are done with their lessons.. i do not like all the noise the kids can make on the stairs.. LOL sounds like a stampede.. as for whom to talk to.. i guess it is mainly me and my wife who feel he is being shorted... when we speak privately ... he just tries to please everyone. I guess it is just a personal thought, as to what i did not like about my church ... i guess every church will have situations, and if people do not like them, they move to another...

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Our church service starts at 11.. with choir, announcements , him selection, Invocation, special music.. this what can take long... from one person signing or two... then we got to Tithes and Offerings, then Doxology, then we have a Scripture Reading followed by Prayer and Praise and finally the Pastor and when he is finished we have a closing him and Benediction.... on avg we get out around 12:25 give or take a minute or two... and that is fine... But i feel we should limit our special music to one... and give the Pastor more time for preaching.... I mostly am down stairs with our Children's Church, but can hear him speaking through the closed circuit TV.. I do not send up the children until i hear the people moving on floor.... other teachers send up when they are done with their lessons.. i do not like all the noise the kids can make on the stairs.. LOL sounds like a stampede.. as for whom to talk to.. i guess it is mainly me and my wife who feel he is being shorted... when we speak privately ... he just tries to please everyone. I guess it is just a personal thought, as to what i did not like about my church ... i guess every church will have situations, and if people do not like them, they move to another...

If your "special music" thing is really a mini-concert, perhaps you should suggest to the pastor having a separate event for music. From what you describe, it sounds to me like you're worshiping the music, not God, and God is jealous when it comes to who gets the worship and praise. Think about it: where is most of the focus during worship? Sounds like the focus is on performance. The singers. They are being lifted up, not Jesus. I think if you put it this way to the pastor, he or she should recognize and adjust things. I'm not saying music isn't important. By no means, as a professional musician myself, I certainly understand that you can praise God in music. But I also know the difference between a hymn and a concert, and it sounds like this church may be blurring that line a bit.

Thank you for sharing that. I'm not saying you're wrong to stay with that church, or not to talk with your pastor ... you need to do whatever you feel is right. If you decide to stay with it, I'm sure God can work within that framework, too. Heck, if God can work through the Pharaoh, God can work through ANYTHING, right?