My answer to a difficult theological question

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Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
160
10
18
#1
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. (1 Samuel 15:2-3)

These passages are indeed very difficult and I would like to address them as some assert on the basis of passages such as these that God is morally depraved. So what gives God the right to order the wholesale destruction of an entire people? Well, let me explain. In democratic countries we have judicial systems that require that any person that is tried in a court of law be presumed innocent until proven guilty. This is a good system because Police, Judges and Juries are not omniscient. By themselves they are not aware of the whole picture and so a hearing is called to determine said persons guilt. God on the other hand is omniscient, and is therefore the only being qualified to make a judgment on an entire people without a hearing that could warrant their complete destruction as he knew the hearts and minds of every individual in this society. Let’s take note of Abrahams request to God concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? (Genesis 18:24,25)

Abraham deliberated with God about the number of righteous souls that might be there and that God should not destroy the city if so many righteous were in it and he whittled God all the way down to ten righteous souls. To which God replied:

…I will not destroy it for ten's sake. (Genesis 18:32)

So here we clearly see Gods willingness to spare the wicked for the sake of the righteous. The fact that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed only serves to suggest there were indeed no righteous souls whatsoever in that place (Save lot and his family who were called to leave that place). Such I suspect was the condition of the Amalekites themselves being beyond redemption, excluding of course the infants and suckling’s, which issue I shall deal with presently. God being all knowing, not only knew the conditions of the hearts of the Amalekites at that time, he also knew their alternative future as well. He knew what they would become as a nation had they been allowed to continue. He also knew what would have become of the infants had they grown up, whether being amongst their own people or else assimilated into Israel. These children did not have a chance to grow up and reject God thereby damning their own precious souls.
So then what about the contradictory nature of making the commandment, Thou shalt not kill, and then ordering the wholesale slaughter of an entire people. But this command, as does every scripture, needs to be taken into context. It should be first understood that this command was Gods judicial decree as he is the supreme judge of all mankind. The command, Thou shalt not kill, could not have been in reference to judicial judgment since the death penalty existed under that same Old-Testament law.
Now it will be noted however that despite the wickedness of these people God is all-loving. Surely this command could not have come from this so called loving God. After all does the Bible not say that God is not willing that any should perish? But it must be understood that God is just and he cannot change his own internal attributes, for example in Titus 1:2 it says that God cannot lie and again in James 1:13 that he cannot be tempted with evil. ‘But,’ you ask, ‘I thought God was omnipotent.’ Again you must understand the importance of context in understanding these things. God is all powerful in the sense that he has absolute power over the universe. But not in the context of being able to change his own internal attribute of perfect justice or any other of his inborn attributes. It's not that he does not posses the power to do it, it's that such an ability is entirely absent from his character. If he could change his just nature he would not have had to send his son to pay for our sins by his death on the cross. He could have simply saved everybody regardless of their willingness to repent.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#2
God has the ability and the intention of giving these people life again and giving them the choice of eternal life or death in a resurrection called the second resurrection. You may have heard it called the Great White Throne Judgment...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Notice in this resurrection the books, the Bible, is open to their understanding. The Bible is not open for all to understand today. God is not calling everyone today...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Note the word given here? Now let's read another passage...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

God calls some in this age, and He calls some at a later time. At anyrate, all get one fair chance at salvation.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
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#3
15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.
7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good.

God doesn't kill, but He tell the one that has the dark spirits ( one of the fruits of darkness) in them to accomplish His works. These dark spirits cannot dwell among us, pretty soon we will start thinking that killing can be justifiable. God was showing to us that the physical realm can't be straighten to perfection. That is why He had made that statement, " That there will always be the poor." No matter how much God has tried to perfected the physical realm, there's alway someone that falls into temptation. The body is alway weak.
 
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enoch1nine

Guest
#4
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
These are spiritual instructions, a poetic account of how someone walked with God inwardly and outwardly.
"Thou shalt not kill" however, is written in stone and God never told anybody to physically do it.
 

Andrew1

Senior Member
May 11, 2013
160
10
18
#5
These are spiritual instructions, a poetic account of how someone walked with God inwardly and outwardly.
"Thou shalt not kill" however, is written in stone and God never told anybody to physically do it.
I'm afraid God really did say to do this, It is not poetic there is nothing in this passage to indicate that. Thou shalt not kill does not refer to judicial punishment in the Bible. It also does not apply to self defense, which is also permitted in the Bible. What kind of God would tell someone that they cannot defend their own family. Context is very important in understanding the Bible.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
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#6
I'm afraid God really did say to do this, It is not poetic there is nothing in this passage to indicate that. Thou shalt not kill does not refer to judicial punishment in the Bible. It also does not apply to self defense, which is also permitted in the Bible. What kind of God would tell someone that they cannot defend their own family. Context is very important in understanding the Bible.
You'll understand if you recognize who is the one that have been with you from the beginning. Some people has good relationships with their family, and there's some don't. God makes things happen. If you believe in Him you would know that when we move on to the stage with Him, you will be having the feeling of being overwhelm with life.
 
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enoch1nine

Guest
#7
I'm afraid God really did say to do this, It is not poetic there is nothing in this passage to indicate that.
"Samuel also said unto Saul, Salvation sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of Salvation."

Tells the reader right up front that the words that follow are not earthly words.

Thou shalt not kill does not refer to judicial punishment in the Bible. It also does not apply to self defense, which is also permitted in the Bible. What kind of God would tell someone that they cannot defend their own family.
Defensively sticking a knife in your family's attacker is not a physical act that induces any kind of hatred, unless the defender chooses to hate.
Pulling suckling after suckling from fearful women's breasts and cutting their throats, then cutting the throat of the sobbing mother would cause any sane person to abhor the one who commanded them to do it. No matter how "evil" those people are.

"Thou shalt not kill."
Written in stone. Do not literally murder.

"Fire comes out of their mouth and destroys their enemies ... in this manner they he be killed"
Not written in stone. A killing of the enemy's religious foundation, not the man himself.

Context is very important in understanding the Bible.
So be it!
 
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Widdekind

Guest
#8
no matter how many wars are waged on earth, God in heaven "suffers no casualties" (as it were)