My take on why we should attempt to purge sin after salvation...

[NazariteNation]

First, I want folks to know that I absolutely believe that we are saved by Grace through faith and that both grace and faith are gifts from God. I also believe that once we have turned our heart to God that He never turns His back on us. However this seems to be the key element where my beliefs tend to diifer from others, namely those who believe in Eternal Security.

I believe that when Christ died on the cross not only did He die for the forgiveness of sin but that, through Jesus, mankind was restored to his original God given purpose here on earth which is to be God's voice, hands, and feet in the physical realm and that if we walk in the will of God that we can overcome in this life (have dominion over the earth) in Jesus' name.

This is why I believe it is imperative that we do our best to "crucify the flesh" from man's carnal desires and at least attempt to lead a lifestyle that Christ taught about throughout His ministry. Not that it has anything to do with salvation, but rather, we will never reach our maximum potential or fully impact the world around us - UNTIL - we are able to subdue the carnal man within us.

I believe that when God looks upon us, he doesn't see the sinful wretch that we may think we are, but rather He sees us as the person(s) that He intended us to be from the foundation of the world - Jesus and His righteousness being that which filters out (washes away) sin from God's sight.

However, I believe that sin (carnality) clouds man's vision and that because of sin, mankind can not fully see God's intentions (His Glory). That is why it is imperative that we "crucify the flesh", not for God's benefit - not even so much for our own benefit - but for the betterment of the world around us. So that we can not only see God's will but to also walk in that will so that we do not miss the many opportunities that come our way daily to manifest God's Glory (Kingdom) into this world through us.

 

[dodolah]

another thing to add and this is just my opinion...
I believe that Salvation is a complete mercy and grace from God via the sacrifice of Jesus.
Salvation alone is not via works.
This is what make Christianity different than other religions where they try to "earn" their way in.

Thus, because I am saved, I try my best to live holy under Jesus' grace.
This becomes a thanksgiving spirit.
I am overjoyed of His mercy and being grateful, I try to live Holy thru Jesus Christ who strengthens me.

I am saved therefore I do good.
Not I do good Therefore I am saved.

 

[Abing]

~!!!~Exactly~!!!~

 

[carpetmanswife]

Good works come because you are saved not to be saved

 

[MahogonySnail]

This is why I believe it is imperative that we do our best to "crucify the flesh" from man's carnal desires and at least attempt to lead a lifestyle that Christ taught about throughout His ministry. Not that it has anything to do with salvation, but rather, we will never reach our maximum potential or fully impact the world around us - UNTIL - we are able to subdue the carnal man within us.

I believe that when God looks upon us, he doesn't see the sinful wretch that we may think we are, but rather He sees us as the person(s) that He intended us to be from the foundation of the world - Jesus and His righteousness being that which filters out (washes away) sin from God's sight.

However, I believe that sin (carnality) clouds man's vision and that because of sin, mankind can not fully see God's intentions (His Glory). That is why it is imperative that we "crucify the flesh", not for God's benefit - not even so much for our own benefit - but for the betterment of the world around us. So that we can not only see God's will but to also walk in that will so that we do not miss the many opportunities that come our way daily to manifest God's Glory (Kingdom) into this world through us.

Nazarite, that sound pretty good on face value, lack of a holy life can reduce our impact and testimony to non-believers. However based on what I learnt from scripture I disagree on "doing our best to crucify the flesh for the sake of the world".

For two main reasons:

Reason 1) Even the crucifixion of our flesh is God's work not our own.None of us can "do our best" - our best was not good enough so God sent His Son.

and Reason 2) our duty as Christians is to point the world to Christ, not to ourselves, it is God's work to save people we are just the messenger. No evangelism would ever get done if every christian waited until they were "crucified enough". Part of the Christian's testimony is not how perfect they have become since accepting Christ but how much of a sinner they were (or even are), and the forgiveness and grace available to us in Christ.

I can't really find a verse anywhere where it explicitly says "crucify yourselves". I do however find a lot of verses talking about Christ's crucifixion and that's where our faith must rest- not in our own efforts. I believe the crucifixion of our flesh has already been done for us by Christ. It is by us being in Him, by faith, that we are crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). This is a work of God's Spirit in the heart, and for a believer it is a present reality, not a future attainment, that only needs to be accepted by faith.

Our crucifixion is because of Christ and His cross, not because of our own efforts. (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14). This is what baptism symbolises (Romans 6), the death of the old carnal nature , and the new creation we have become. After conversion we can then look upon ourselves as being dead to sin, but alive to Christ. Some might call it being "born again", others might call it "regenerated", Whatever we call it, in practice we no longer desire sin like we used to, and we have the freedom to choose not to sin.

So, in order to conquer any sinful desires we may have, I wouldn't say more effort to crucify ourselves is required, I'd say more faith in the cross of Christ and His death, burial and resurrection is required, and we should identify with that and reckon ourselves to be dead to sin:

Rom 6:10 For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But still our job is to do not let sin reign..(verse 12), to "put off our old man" (Eph 4:22), which is another way of saying , renounce sin, your old nature, reckon yourself to be dead to sin..etc. and importantly, renew the mind (Eph 4:23) and put on the new man (Eph 4:24).

I would say there is a difference between being crucified in the flesh, and not letting sin reign. Despite being crucified in the flesh, christians still have the ability to choose sin and make wrong decisions and give place to the Devil. And certainly we need to make the right choices to better the world around us.

 

[MahogonySnail]

And no I don't believe in eternal security either, as I think I might have mentioned in past discussions about that topic. I won't say that God overrides a person's ability to make choices. However, with Christ's life living within them , a Christian generally wants to do what pleases God, and in many cases they cannot help but do what pleases God. This is a result of the new nature within the Christian. And God's power to save and to keep is much stronger than our own ability to remain in Him. Looking at the testimonies of backsliders I think this is very true, God brings them around eventually and doesn't give up on them.

 

[NazariteNation]

Nazarite, that sound pretty good on face value, lack of a holy life can reduce our impact and testimony to non-believers. However based on what I learnt from scripture I disagree on "doing our best to crucify the flesh for the sake of the world".

For two main reasons:

Reason 1) Even the crucifixion of our flesh is God's work not our own.None of us can "do our best" - our best was not good enough so God sent His Son.

and Reason 2) our duty as Christians is to point the world to Christ, not to ourselves, it is God's work to save people we are just the messenger. No evangelism would ever get done if every christian waited until they were "crucified enough". Part of the Christian's testimony is not how perfect they have become since accepting Christ but how much of a sinner they were (or even are), and the forgiveness and grace available to us in Christ.

I can't really find a verse anywhere where it explicitly says "crucify yourselves". I do however find a lot of verses talking about Christ's crucifixion and that's where our faith must rest- not in our own efforts. I believe the crucifixion of our flesh has already been done for us by Christ. It is by us being in Him, by faith, that we are crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). This is a work of God's Spirit in the heart, and for a believer it is a present reality, not a future attainment, that only needs to be accepted by faith.

Our crucifixion is because of Christ and His cross, not because of our own efforts. (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14). This is what baptism symbolises (Romans 6), the death of the old carnal nature , and the new creation we have become. After conversion we can then look upon ourselves as being dead to sin, but alive to Christ. Some might call it being "born again", others might call it "regenerated", Whatever we call it, in practice we no longer desire sin like we used to, and we have the freedom to choose not to sin.

So, in order to conquer any sinful desires we may have, I wouldn't say more effort to crucify ourselves is required, I'd say more faith in the cross of Christ and His death, burial and resurrection is required, and we should identify with that and reckon ourselves to be dead to sin:

Rom 6:10 For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But still our job is to do not let sin reign..(verse 12), to "put off our old man" (Eph 4:22), which is another way of saying , renounce sin, your old nature, reckon yourself to be dead to sin..etc. and importantly, renew the mind (Eph 4:23) and put on the new man (Eph 4:24).

I would say there is a difference between being crucified in the flesh, and not letting sin reign. Despite being crucified in the flesh, christians still have the ability to choose sin and make wrong decisions and give place to the Devil. And certainly we need to make the right choices to better the world around us.

Great points Mahogany and I will definitely read over them again so that I may better take them to heart.

Ultimately, I believe our purpose here on earth is genuine relationship (love). Not only relationship with the Father but also relationship with our fellow man. Often times I will look toward the testimony of the first century church, how freely God's anointing flowed in and through them, for inspiration. However, in doing so, one can't help but notice the impotence of the modern church in comparison.

While I do realize that ultimately God is in control, I can't help but wonder sometimes why the modern church has become virtually powerless in comparison. Considering that the only thing we, mankind, initially have dominion over is our thoughts and deeds, this leads me to the assumption that we, the church as a whole, has allowed our carnality (pride, opinion, & desire) to get in the way. The obvious example being denominational indifference (pride) and finger pointing / back stabbing.

 

[NazariteNation]

And no I don't believe in eternal security either, as I think I might have mentioned in past discussions about that topic. I won't say that God overrides a person's ability to make choices. However, with Christ's life living within them , a Christian generally wants to do what pleases God, and in many cases they cannot help but do what pleases God. This is a result of the new nature within the Christian. And God's power to save and to keep is much stronger than our own ability to remain in Him. Looking at the testimonies of backsliders I think this is very true, God brings them around eventually and doesn't give up on them.

Amen! I couldn't agree more...

 

[NazariteNation]

However, I believe that sin (carnality) clouds man's vision and that because of sin, mankind can not fully see God's intentions (His Glory). That is why it is imperative that we "crucify the flesh", not for God's benefit - not even so much for our own benefit - but for the betterment of the world around us. So that we can not only see God's will but to also walk in that will so that we do not miss the many opportunities that come our way daily to manifest God's Glory (Kingdom) into this world through us.

To further elaborate on this point. I have noticed, from my own personal experiences, two major ways in which sin can and often does hinder our effectiveness:

The first being it can ruin your testimony with others. How can we witness to someone about the saving grace, peace, life transforming love of Jesus Christ, if hours earlier this person caught us in a compromising situation (whatever it may be). Please keep in mind that the lost are very judgmental and have this general idea that all christians are supposedly perfect (of course we know better).

Second, sin tends to makes us focus on ourselves, our imperfections and misgivings, and often times will miss opportunities to assist and / or minister to others because we are either too caught up in ourselves to notice or because we feel unworthy.

Regardless of which side of the fence that once stands regarding this conversation, I think we all will admit that both instances have occured at sometime during our perspective walk with the Lord. If anything though, these factors should serve as a reminder to what and why Jesus did what He did when He descended from heaven and allowed Himself to be sacrificed for us.

May all praise be to God for His infinite mercy & grace!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Ultimately, I believe our purpose here on earth is genuine relationship (love). Not only relationship with the Father but also relationship with our fellow man. Often times I will look toward the testimony of the first century church, how freely God's anointing flowed in and through them, for inspiration. However, in doing so, one can't help but notice the impotence of the modern church in comparison.

While I do realize that ultimately God is in control, I can't help but wonder sometimes why the modern church has become virtually powerless in comparison. Considering that the only thing we, mankind, initially have dominion over is our thoughts and deeds, this leads me to the assumption that we, the church as a whole, has allowed our carnality (pride, opinion, & desire) to get in the way. The obvious example being denominational indifference (pride) and finger pointing / back stabbing.

Thanks for your insight Naz, I believe that is true.

The first being it can ruin your testimony with others. How can we witness to someone about the saving grace, peace, life transforming love of Jesus Christ, if hours earlier this person caught us in a compromising situation (whatever it may be). Please keep in mind that the lost are very judgmental and have this general idea that all christians are supposedly perfect (of course we know better).

Very true, yet if a nonbeliever raises those issues, we can point out to them that it is the state of their own soul which really matters, not what another person does or doesn't do. To try and show them that everyone is a sinner without Christ, even Christians. I even agree with them that yes that person didn't do the right thing, I won't make excuses for them, or myself.

I've given up on the idea of "being a witness" means to live a perfect life, put a smile on the face and pointing to ourselves and how great God has made us, just so we can point them to Jesus. It often doesn't work like that. We dont' want them looking at us or another person, but their own sinfulness and lack of a Savior.

Second, sin tends to makes us focus on ourselves, our imperfections and misgivings, and often times will miss opportunities to assist and / or minister to others because we are either too caught up in ourselves to notice or because we feel unworthy.

Yes, and this is where I believe focussing on the fact that our sins are nailed to the cross with Christ, and that we are dead to sin, is very helpful. Certainly was in my life anyway. Remember our sins were symbolically nailed to the cross in the body of Christ.
1Pe 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed.
The most common reasons why we continue to sin is " I can't help it", or "I'll try harder or better next time". Often this is because we don't realise we have died to sin. We have the power to overcome, we have the Spirit, but we just don't believe we are dead to it. Focus on the Law always produces sin. Humans have a tendency to "break the laws", "rules are meant to be broken" etc etc. Your average person who lives by the letter of the law will simply not be as effective or sinless than the average person who lives by God's grace. Just look at the Pharisees in Jesus's time. Believing and living that we're dead to the problem of sin helps us not to focus on ourselves and imperfections and generally be a much nicer person overall.

As believers God took care not just of the penalty for our sins which is death, but the thing in human nature which causes us to sin. That's what the Law could not do, it couldn't change a person's nature, so God decided to send His Spirit into our hearts. In a nutshell, this thing in human nature is called the knowledge of good and evil, that's what caused sin to come to the whole human race.

The only reason Adam and Eve continued sinning after the Fall was because they now had knowledge of it (Gen 2) they had ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, their eyes were opened, they now knew what sin was. That sin then became a great temptation for them and every human since, and tool for satan to use. It became a great struggle for them, like Cain, who was powerless to overcome his rage, despite God warning him about sin crouching at his door. That's why after the one sinful act of disobeying God, they didn't go back to a state of sinless perfection, they were corrupted in their fleshly human nature forever. Previously they had only eaten of the Tree of life, they had only known God, and it would appear they didn't even know about satan or any evil at all before the fall.


There's a great spiritual truth there for us, that we can either struggle to live according to knowledge of good and evil, which is the way of the Law, the flesh, the Pharisee, and keep sinning (because it only ends up in failure, no matter how hard we try). Because through the Law is the knowledge of sin , and the law, rather than fixing the problem of our sinful human nature, gives strength to sin (Rom 3:20, 1 Co 15:56, Rom 7 ). Or we can live according to the way of eating from the tree of life so to speak. The Tree of Life represents eternal life, both in Genesis and Revelations. But not only that, it represents Jesus, because Jesus is eternal life (John 11:25) and the Truth, and I believe we in a way eat of the Tree of Life when we "eat" Christ's Words because they are Spirit and life (John 6:63).

The Law keeps us focussed on sin if we are constantly measuring ourselves and others up against it, leading to the feelings of imperfections, "if only I was more perfect, then I'll do this, or do that". But God took the measuring stick that we are all too eager to use on ourselves and others, and turned it into a cross. The Law remains in effect for godless sinners, Jew and Gentile, perhaps even the "Christian", but believers are "not under the Law", but under grace, having already died to sin (Rom 6:14). The point is God doesn't want us eating from a tree of knowledge of good and evil, He wants us eating from the Tree of Life which is really Christ. God doesn't want us to know evil at all but Himself through a relationship in Christ. Knowing God (the Father) and Jesus His Son is what eternal life is:
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Eventually in the next life we will have no knowledge of sin, it will be like it was in the Garden before Adam and Eve fell, eating of the Tree of life, (Rev 2, Rev 22). We won't be able to sin, not because we won't have free-will and can't choose to sin, but because there will no longer be any more knowledge of sin, and the Tempter, satan and all his cohorts will be gone as well, destroyed.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

First, I want folks to know that I absolutely believe that we are saved by Grace through faith and that both grace and faith are gifts from God. I also believe that once we have turned our heart to God that He never turns His back on us. However this seems to be the key element where my beliefs tend to diifer from others, namely those who believe in Eternal Security.

I believe that when Christ died on the cross not only did He die for the forgiveness of sin but that, through Jesus, mankind was restored to his original God given purpose here on earth which is to be God's voice, hands, and feet in the physical realm and that if we walk in the will of God that we can overcome in this life (have dominion over the earth) in Jesus' name.

This is why I believe it is imperative that we do our best to "crucify the flesh" from man's carnal desires and at least attempt to lead a lifestyle that Christ taught about throughout His ministry. Not that it has anything to do with salvation, but rather, we will never reach our maximum potential or fully impact the world around us - UNTIL - we are able to subdue the carnal man within us.

I believe that when God looks upon us, he doesn't see the sinful wretch that we may think we are, but rather He sees us as the person(s) that He intended us to be from the foundation of the world - Jesus and His righteousness being that which filters out (washes away) sin from God's sight.

However, I believe that sin (carnality) clouds man's vision and that because of sin, mankind can not fully see God's intentions (His Glory). That is why it is imperative that we "crucify the flesh", not for God's benefit - not even so much for our own benefit - but for the betterment of the world around us. So that we can not only see God's will but to also walk in that will so that we do not miss the many opportunities that come our way daily to manifest God's Glory (Kingdom) into this world through us.

I agree totally and would add that Jesus did not die just to bring forgiveness of sin but to free us from our sin. If we remain in our sin then were we ever set free?