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To attend a church, or to be a part of the spiritual ecclesia? It is more than being in a building. It is being a part of the body of Christ. There are both wheat & tares in the building. While I totally agree with your OP, let's not limit ourselves to man made traditions and paradigms. The smallest church service I ever went to & the biggest church service I went to happened within 6 days of each other. The smallest service were 2 of us in the parking lot of our workplace. That lasted over 1 & 1/2 hours. The second one was in a stadium with 50,000 men, and lasted 16 hours over a two day period.
A
trying to locate churches for people in cc i have run into trouble finding a suitable church. The smaller the towns and more
rural areas all i can say is that I am so blessed having so many great churches to pick from where i live. Its a real blessing
not everyone has. Until i started doing this id have never known some people dont have a church to go to within a couple hours
drive each way. Be thankful if you do.
rural areas all i can say is that I am so blessed having so many great churches to pick from where i live. Its a real blessing
not everyone has. Until i started doing this id have never known some people dont have a church to go to within a couple hours
drive each way. Be thankful if you do.
Is it a pastor that teaches us in all things? Or is it the Holy Spirit? Jesus said,
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
If we are gathered together in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Jesus said “there am I in the midst,” and Jesus said it is the Holy Ghost that shall teach us why would you believe that it takes a pastor to be spiritually developed or perfected?
I believe a lot of people are seeing the corruption and the teachers that are teaching to itchy ears and want no part of it. Following the Spirit of Truth is following the Spirit. We are to submit to the Lord and not a pastor.
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
If we are gathered together in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Jesus said “there am I in the midst,” and Jesus said it is the Holy Ghost that shall teach us why would you believe that it takes a pastor to be spiritually developed or perfected?
I believe a lot of people are seeing the corruption and the teachers that are teaching to itchy ears and want no part of it. Following the Spirit of Truth is following the Spirit. We are to submit to the Lord and not a pastor.
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
P
Sorry friend, perhaps a second look at Ephesians 4:11 should clear the air, these ministries are after all for the perfecting of the saints. The same annointing that teaches you in all things, also teaches that we are to submit ourselves to those that have the rule over us, for as the scripture says... for they must give account! So that they may do it with joy and not with grief. Jesus also said to make disciples, you can not make a disciple without teaching the individual to follow Christ. Even Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. What do you think he would say to folks that say... I don't need a Pastor, or an Evangelist, or Prophet, or Teacher ?
Account for what? your soul!
Account for what? your soul!
H
I sympathize. I found that a lot of churches i have gone to are about church, which is great , but they lack substance. Usually i find the places i most enjoyed, i liked because of the fellowship. Its hard to be on fire about something, when you are to busy trying to get around the coffee bar line at a church.
I feel churchianity is a killer for a lot of believers, as well as non-believers. Me being one of them. In my younger youth, i struggled a lot with going to church, because i felt there was no point. As I grew older i found in a lot of ways, i was completely correct. there was no point. Yet I must say, i have stumbled across fellowships in my journey that have been enlightening and inspirational. Some of them were some of the most un-orthodox churches you could imagine. From fellowships that were messianic jewish, but you were allowed to smoke cannabis in the service, to riding in a buggy to a wood meeting room that was warmed by a wood burning stove, surrounded by the amish.
You never know what you might find.
H
Yeah man! I find that smaller groups of friends (i.e. house churches, movements) tend to have a lot of power issues within the church. Usually a lot of drama turns up, and they disband. Bigger churches are more churchianity minded, at least in the bible belt, so its hard to find any real spiritual food.
I do agree with your point about the Ephesians 4:11-16 five fold ministry of the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers and their purpose. So tell me, who are your churches apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher? All five are listed together in context, so can you name them? And furthermore, are churches without those ministries exempt for what you would deem to be spiritually healthy churches?
Oh, and of course {Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.} So obviously this means that the many saints through the bible and church history whom God called out away from people to be alone were really just mistaken and didn't hear God at all huh? And the drastic changes in their lives that went on to enable them to bring amazing truth and character to the world was just a coincidence? And persecuted Christians locked away in solitary confinement? They're just "those who don't darken the doors of a Church and have denied the faith and fully reject the council of God."
If I don't go to church, yet still preach the gospel, heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead and follow Jesus daily with fruit that lasts, what does that imply? Especially when church attending people don't do any these things... does that mean God is confused?
God doesn't belong in a box and neither do His kids.
Luke 9:49 “Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
From Cheeky. Who is having his patience exhausted by self righteous churchy folk who preach building attendance more than Jesus and who have no substance to their narrow minded claims other than religious world view and ignorance. I will punch you if you attack my relationship with Father and call it invalid unless shackled by religious legalism! (What's that God? You don't want me to punch anyone please? Ok, fine. But can you smite them for me?)
Fellowship? Yes. Attendance? No.
I'm in a grouchy mood about this and will bite stupid people.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Oh, and of course {Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.} So obviously this means that the many saints through the bible and church history whom God called out away from people to be alone were really just mistaken and didn't hear God at all huh? And the drastic changes in their lives that went on to enable them to bring amazing truth and character to the world was just a coincidence? And persecuted Christians locked away in solitary confinement? They're just "those who don't darken the doors of a Church and have denied the faith and fully reject the council of God."
If I don't go to church, yet still preach the gospel, heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead and follow Jesus daily with fruit that lasts, what does that imply? Especially when church attending people don't do any these things... does that mean God is confused?
God doesn't belong in a box and neither do His kids.
Luke 9:49 “Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
From Cheeky. Who is having his patience exhausted by self righteous churchy folk who preach building attendance more than Jesus and who have no substance to their narrow minded claims other than religious world view and ignorance. I will punch you if you attack my relationship with Father and call it invalid unless shackled by religious legalism! (What's that God? You don't want me to punch anyone please? Ok, fine. But can you smite them for me?)
Fellowship? Yes. Attendance? No.
I'm in a grouchy mood about this and will bite stupid people.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
P
No offence, but I found your post amusing. Actually I advocate the united body of Christ, for we are members of one another, provided that they don't teach another Jesus.
I teach that those who are regernerated (BORN AGAIN) of the water and the Spirit, baptized into the name of Jesus according to Acts 2:38, filled with the Holy Spirit as evidenced by Acts 10:43-48 and Acts 19:1-6
And do live according to the Apostles doctrine and teachings, are effectively the Children of God. We are taught to exhort one another, comfort one another, and build each other up in the faith.
I would say that this is impossible to do effectively, when it was the obvious plan of God to wash one anothers feet, and to remember the Lords death and sacrifice through communion.
When the body is gathered together and assembled before the Lord, then the Lord can effectively move in and through his body by his Holy Spirit. God did not call us to be the Lone Ranger, for even the Lone Ranger had Tonto.
prophecyman
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Scripture says “some” but not “all”… interesting… But lets read on
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Scripture also warns us of a time to come,
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
　
　
It is my opinion that we are in the time described in 2Ti 4:3-4. Do you think that the apostle Paul would want us to heap to ourselves teachers that are teaching to itching ears and every wind of doctrine that blinds us from the Truth. I believe the apostle would be in tears seeing the condition of the church today. But it seems to me that he may have foreknew this already. Scripture tells if us, if I may correct my statement above, to submit to a pastor. This I will agree with. What I was trying to say is would you submit to a pastor that is teaching to itching ears?
The churches seem to be allowing anyone in. Those who were disobedient to God’s Word years ago were cast out from among the believers if they continued in their disobedience. But it seems today this is not the case. And it seems to me that those who are walking in the Light, see the corruption within the churches and are falling away from that which is corrupt, searching for the Truth in God’s Holy Word. I do not believe every church is corrupt, but I believe that there are many which are corrupting the Truth. The Spirit of Truth is opening many a believers eyes. God is good and will lead his people. It does not take a church (man made building), a pastor (those teaching to itching ears) to make a Christian. It takes a true circumcision of heart.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Your original question was, “How can you be spiritually developed or perfected without a Pastor in your life?”
With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible!
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Scripture says “some” but not “all”… interesting… But lets read on
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Scripture also warns us of a time to come,
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
　
　
It is my opinion that we are in the time described in 2Ti 4:3-4. Do you think that the apostle Paul would want us to heap to ourselves teachers that are teaching to itching ears and every wind of doctrine that blinds us from the Truth. I believe the apostle would be in tears seeing the condition of the church today. But it seems to me that he may have foreknew this already. Scripture tells if us, if I may correct my statement above, to submit to a pastor. This I will agree with. What I was trying to say is would you submit to a pastor that is teaching to itching ears?
The churches seem to be allowing anyone in. Those who were disobedient to God’s Word years ago were cast out from among the believers if they continued in their disobedience. But it seems today this is not the case. And it seems to me that those who are walking in the Light, see the corruption within the churches and are falling away from that which is corrupt, searching for the Truth in God’s Holy Word. I do not believe every church is corrupt, but I believe that there are many which are corrupting the Truth. The Spirit of Truth is opening many a believers eyes. God is good and will lead his people. It does not take a church (man made building), a pastor (those teaching to itching ears) to make a Christian. It takes a true circumcision of heart.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Your original question was, “How can you be spiritually developed or perfected without a Pastor in your life?”
With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible!
In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316
P
I believe he is making mention of those who by and large had left their assemblies, because they could not endure sound doctrine, such as the crowd that is always screaming legalism, or how dare you tell me that I need to change my ways group, or yet, the crowd that says I follow the Spirit and don't need any man to teach me.
Or how about those dear souls that just stay at home on Sunday, and so justify themselves that they can read their bible and worship God in the comfort of their lazyboy chair, meanwhile after the service ends in the limited time that they afforded God, they rush to their local shopping mart to buy that beer and chips and snacking dip, because after all we don't want to miss a single ending of our favorite foot ball team... Now that just would'nt be so edifying now would it?
Meanwhile that greedy Pastor is begging for tithes, and his complaint is that he can't make the light bill for the Church that runs into the hundreds if not thousands, but don't worry he always seems to come through, that is after he takes a hefty pay cut.
There is coming such a time in America that the traditional wholesome Church is nothing more than just a relic of the past, sort of like many Churches over in Europe (ALL OVER EUROPE) that are just sitting empty, many are converted into convention or community centers, still others are being converted into Disco hall dances, ahhh yes, the joy of not having Church as usual, lets stay at home and let the Spirit talk to us!
Or how about those dear souls that just stay at home on Sunday, and so justify themselves that they can read their bible and worship God in the comfort of their lazyboy chair, meanwhile after the service ends in the limited time that they afforded God, they rush to their local shopping mart to buy that beer and chips and snacking dip, because after all we don't want to miss a single ending of our favorite foot ball team... Now that just would'nt be so edifying now would it?
Meanwhile that greedy Pastor is begging for tithes, and his complaint is that he can't make the light bill for the Church that runs into the hundreds if not thousands, but don't worry he always seems to come through, that is after he takes a hefty pay cut.
There is coming such a time in America that the traditional wholesome Church is nothing more than just a relic of the past, sort of like many Churches over in Europe (ALL OVER EUROPE) that are just sitting empty, many are converted into convention or community centers, still others are being converted into Disco hall dances, ahhh yes, the joy of not having Church as usual, lets stay at home and let the Spirit talk to us!