Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

Are you kidding? If you figure, because your pastor told you that you are saved no matter what you do because Jesus is there to forgive you immediately, you don't think that the human thought pattern would be, I'll do it and then Jesus will clean it up for me and I will be alright.

I know, no body is going to say that outloud, but look at the wickedness in the church today. (False) Many pastors are starting to stop preaching OSAS, (False) because they think it is the main reason for the problem.

The idea that we are no longer under the law, but are free under grace, is causing a lot of problems with our society today, (False) even causing Christians to say we don't have to go to church any longer because it was the law of Moses that said you had to obey the Sabbath, but not so under the freedom of grace. Go do some research and find out I am right.

I did my research its called the bible. And the rest of what you say about the wickedness in the Church and Pastors starting to stop preaching "the security of the believer", (osas), is pure speculation, there s no proof and this is just unverifiable nonsense, document you sources or keep quiet.

Where on earth do you come up with this junk news, you are promoting a social gospel and you should read your bible more often. The things you are saying even sound like junk news, document your sources.

Slaves to Righteousness
Romans6:15-18

15) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16) Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17) But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
18) You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

 

[TruthTalk]

Are you kidding? If you figure, because your pastor told you that you are saved no matter what you do because Jesus is there to forgive you immediately, you don't think that the human thought pattern would be, I'll do it and then Jesus will clean it up for me and I will be alright.

I know, no body is going to say that outloud, but look at the wickedness in the church today. Many pastors are starting to stop preaching OSAS because they think it is the main reason for the problem.

The idea that we are no longer under the law, but are free under grace, is causing a lot of problems with our society today, even causing Christians to say we don't have to go to church any longer because it was the law of Moses that said you had to obey the Sabbath, but not so under the freedom of grace. Go do some research and find out I am right.

One billion Christians in the world and you seen to have the insider story on each and every Church.

Document your sources please.

 

[ljs]

Its so sad that so many posters here are not RESTING in Christ if they are saved .
Christ paid for all our sin when he was brutally crucified, was buried, and rose from the dead !!!
And all of our sin was in the future when that happened !!
Why are some posters quoting old testament scripture mixed with new testament scripture ?
Some posters need to study the difference between the covenants , not mix the old with the new, and stop being so confused on whats required to be saved !!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Our works cannot save us,for our works is as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no not one,and all are sinners and come short of the glory of God.

So no matter what we do we cannot ever do good enough to receive salvation.

In that position the only thing we can do to correct this position is to have faith,that is why we are saved by faith for that is all we can do,for our works cannot do it.

All we have to do is believe.

Paul said we are not saved by works,but by accepting Christ,which he was addressing Gentiles,and their false religions,that thought they could have favor with God by their religious ways,but Paul said you are not saved by those works but by confessing Christ.

Paul was speaking from a fleshy perspective,not saved by works,and James is speaking from a spiritual perspective,accepting Christ,and being led of the Spirit,justified by works and not faith alone.

If a person does confess Christ,they only have to love people for love is the fulfilling of the law,which is what James is saying,and that is why he said if you do not feed someone when you can,then how do you have faith,and any work they would do apart from that,loving people,like if they go by Old Testament physical ordinances,or do something that another religion would do has no bearing on their salvation,but a waste of time.

Paul,not saved by works,James,but led of the Spirit loving people to have faith active in our life.

I guess I an not as smart as some people on this forum in that I have to have book, chapter and verse in order to respond on your statements. I do know that :faith" is a fruit of the Spirit, I think that is in the Galatians letter and without first being born of the Spirit, you have no spiritual faith, some of the newer versions of the bible have left out some of the King James verses and have changed some of the wording of the King James, for example, The NIV has changed the word "of" in Gal 2:16 to "in" which takes away Jesus's faith and makes it man's faith. All scriptures must harmonize or you can not understand the truth. Accepting, confessing, repenting, believing etc. is works which makes man his own savior. A man has to already be born of the Spirit before he will, or even can, understand these spiritually discerned actions of accepting, confessing, believing etc. According to 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[benhur]

Ben can I say your last sentence we can all say the same.

You wish to discuss but your last sentence shows no desire to discuss but only to prove yourself right.

You contradict yourself.

"Many pastors are stopping preaching OSAS but then say that the teaching of such leads to Christians saying we no longer need to go to church..

What is a Sabbath keeper in the NC?

Are you a Sabbath keeper? If so what day?

I am not the one trying to prove myself right. I just ask him to go and do some research and he will come to the same conclusion that I am right. If you don't think so, then tell me where I am wrong. I will discuss all you want.

 

[mailmandan]

Why does Jesus command us to believe and be baptized separately in Mk 16:16 if the latter is an automatic part of the first?

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation.

Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism.
So salvation rests on belief.
*NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[mailmandan]

One further question. Why did Peter and John have to go lay hands on those people who had been baptized and the they had not received the Holy Spirit?

Receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid their hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17). Exception, not the rule (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). There was animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, so it may very well have been essential for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit in the presence of the Jews by the apostles for the purpose of maintaining a unified church.

 

[theanointedsinner]

consider another possibility, that the idea of "being saved" can make someone be like "I'm going to be considered Christian, and if I make the Christian name bad, God will have my neck, figuratively speaking, so I better be a good Christian"

hence, God works in mysterious ways, so don't lean on your own understanding

 

[50C1AL0N3]

C'mon and let me fill you in on what we need to do....
C'mere and let me tell you what God has done....

 

[Seohce]

IS SANCTIFICATION A PART OF SALVATION?

Romans 6:15-23 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to OBEDIENCE WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so NOW offer them in slavery to RIGHTEOUSNESS LEADING TO HOLINESS. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But NOW that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap LEADS TO HOLINESS, and THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

THESE VERSES ABOVE CLEARLY SAYS THAT OBEDIENCE LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT LEADS TO HOLINESS AND THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE.

OUR LORD JESUS SAID;

Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE,(ref: john 14:6) OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.”

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:21-24 WHOEVER HAS MY COMMANDS AND OBEYS THEM, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “IF ANYONE LOVES ME, HE WILL OBEY MY TEACHING.
My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. HE WHO DOES NOT LOVE ME WILL NOT OBEY MY TEACHINGS. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

AND BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER HE GAVE HIS DISCIPLES THESE COMMANDS;

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU . And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

THESE WORDS OF OUR LORD JESUS ARE TRUE AND IS THE TRUTH.

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

WILL ANYONE BE SANCTIFIED WITHOUT OBEYING THE TRUTH?

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard THE WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

DOES THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION TEACHES US TO DISOBEY BY SAYING THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES, VOID OF ANY SORT OF WORKS?

THAT EVEN OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION SINCE "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED?

IF SANCTIFICATION IS NOT A PART OF SALVATION...

WHY WAIT FOR A SAVIOR?
(hebrews 5:7-9,9:28,philippians 3:20-21)

IF OBEDIENCE IS NOT A PART OF SALVATION...

HERE'S WHAT THE "WORD OF TRUTH", "THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION" TEACHES US...


Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have r
RECEIVED and HEARD; OBEY IT, AND REPENT. But if you do not WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.

 

[theanointedsinner]

so, what's the focal point of the debate?

 

[shrume]

This video fits well in this thread:

God loved us first.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid their hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17). Exception, not the rule (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). There was animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, so it may very well have been essential for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit in the presence of the Jews by the apostles for the purpose of maintaining a unified church.

amen, lets not question why God did things certain ways in the start of the church. Just realise he had a plan. and had to carry it out. So things may not have been the same for eveyone.

 

[TruthTalk]

so, what's the focal point of the debate?

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

The focal point of this debate is, "Not By Works", Christians will have an abundance of good works but they cannot save you or keep you saved; our works are evidence that we are saved.

This debate has been going on for 2000 + years, no one could stop it back then and it won't be stopped today.

Epheasians2:8,9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
"not by works," so that no on can boast."

​

 

[BillG]

I am not the one trying to prove myself right. I just ask him to go and do some research and he will come to the same conclusion that I am right. If you don't think so, then tell me where I am wrong. I will discuss all you want.

Ben you said the following

The idea that we are no longer under the law, but are free under grace, is causing a lot of problems with our society today, even causing Christians to say we don't have to go to church any longer because it was the law of Moses that said you had to obey the Sabbath, but not so under the freedom of grace. Go do some research and find out I am right.

So the bolded above is you saying "I am right" therefore trying to prove yourself right.

I don't actually have a problem with that because we all do it, whether it be directly or covertly.

After all we only post given our convictions that we consider the truth.
So you have said "That I am right" by saying that then the person you responded to is wrong, not you but the person you responded to.

So we have discussed baptism to save, forgiveness given 109% to be saved (but you feel if we do not then we have a chance to forgive when we stand before God).

That's been discussed between us, we could flog it more but I see no point.

So as you are willing to discuss can you explain to me, like I asked you originally concerning what you are trying to convey concerning the Sabbath.

Ta

 

[Seohce]

so, what's the focal point of the debate?

IF YOU ARE A JEW WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH THE LAW IT IS "NOT BY WORKS".(ephesians 2:8-deuteronomy 6:24-25)




WHETHER YOU'RE A GENTILE OR A JEW, IF YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH FAITH , YOU ARE;



...God's workmanship created in
Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS which He has PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO . ( ephesians 2:10)

James 2 : 26
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[mailmandan]

The focal point of this debate is, "Not By Works", Christians will have an abundance of good works but they cannot save you or keep you saved; our works are evidence that we are saved.

This debate has been going on for 2000 + years, no one could stop it back then and it won't be stopped today.

Epheasians2:8,9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
"not by works," so that no on can boast."

​

Amen! ALL genuine Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Yet faith in Christ is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in JESUS CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ THROUGH FAITH.

 

[benhur]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation.

Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism.
So salvation rests on belief.
*NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I'm sorry it shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to be damned. He makes it crystal clear that it is absolutely essential for you to be saved, because he puts both believe and be baptized before the word saved. If belief is all that is necessary, Jesus would have said, those who believe will be saved and then go and be baptized to show the world....

Sorry again, but Mark 16:16 is telling you that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. No getting around it, even if you try to interject the baptism of the spirit in the place of water baptism it does not work, because you have to have the baptism of the spirit in order to believe. So if Jesus wanted to be really clear, he would have said, those who recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit and believe and are baptized will be saved.

Does that make sense? You can only believe if you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not this way, you believe and then you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm sorry it shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to be damned. He makes it crystal clear that it is absolutely essential for you to be saved, because he puts both believe and be baptized before the word saved. If belief is all that is necessary, Jesus would have said, those who believe will be saved and then go and be baptized to show the world....

Sorry again, but Mark 16:16 is telling you that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. No getting around it, even if you try to interject the baptism of the spirit in the place of water baptism it does not work, because you have to have the baptism of the spirit in order to believe. So if Jesus wanted to be really clear, he would have said, those who recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit and believe and are baptized will be saved.

Does that make sense? You can only believe if you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not this way, you believe and then you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, but if no water is available (particularly due to a death bed conversion) you will still be saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..

Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned” in Mark 16:16. So once again, if water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

 

[Seohce]

IF YOU ARE A JEW WHOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH THE LAW IT IS "NOT BY WORKS".(ephesians 2:8-deuteronomy 6:24-25)




WHETHER YOU'RE A GENTILE OR A JEW, IF YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH FAITH , YOU ARE;



...God's workmanship created in
Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS which He has PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO . ( ephesians 2:10)

James 2 : 26
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

AND HOW DO WE KNOW WHO ARE THE LIARS AND DECEIVERS?
? ? ??? ??

1 John 2 : 3-5
3 We know that we have come to know him IF WE. OBEY HIS COMMANDS
4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

2 John 1 : 6-11
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
9ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD AND DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God: whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.
11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.




John 8 : 43-47
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HI. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
47H E WHO BELONGS TO GOD HEARS WHAT GOD SAY. The reason you do not hear is that you don't belong to God."


John 7 : 18
18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.